Did we mess up the Residence Permit because we lied??

I am a German National living in UK since 2004
I did not apply for a permanent residence
My husband is Gambian
We met online in August 2014.

He was an asylum seeker who came through Libya, Lampedusa, Swiss to Germany.
We chatted, skyped and phoned all the time until I went to see him in Germany in October.
After three weeks i went back home and struggled to be without him.

I Looked into going back to Germany but feel at home here now. Have a mortgage and my son goes to Uni here.
Went back in November for 4 or 5 weeks and did not wanna leave without him.
I Went home and two days later he followed by train.
He managed to enter illegal.
Came to my house before xmas 2014
We have proof of address since feb 2015
in May 15 we got married by double proxy.
Applied for residence card in August.
Got rejected in January.

reasons were

1. the certificate was not registered within the 4 weeks timesscale
that was untrue. the certificate was registered on the 02/06 and the marriage was 15/05 that was less than 4 weeks

2. The secretary of state is wondering what kind of Authority the Gambian registrar has to sign and stamp the certificate. (the Gambian is a justice of peace, Imam and something of oath (my certificate is with my lawyer. I forgot what it is called) and he works in the cadi. A brother went to the cadi in Gambia and saw with his own eyes that a copy of my Certificate is there with them But how can i prove that.

3. They claim I wasnt working. the homeoffice rung my employer who said i wasnt working there since october 15 but the department I was working in was taken over by another company and I moved along they just did not tell them this. Then in November I found a much better paid job.
I have ordered my passport back from homeoffice in September telling them I needed it for a dbs check for a job but later forgot to tell them I got a new job.
They claim to have made every effort to find out if i am still working but they could not find out.
Anyway it is easy for me to prove that I was.

They also mentioned that I was married to Gambians before.
I have a child with my first husband and the second time i was married for 12 years before it broke down and yes it was shortly after he got his citizenship but that is just the way it went.
I am moving within Gambians for 22 years and you fall in love in the society you move in. I am so used to the culture that I struggle with White men.

We had the right to appeal and did that.
on a few occasions we were advised to go to the registrar office to get married in UK
so in the end we listened to our lawyer and applied for marriage.

we got an invite for an interview.
went there and my man got arrested

in the interview WE LIED about how long we know each other and how he came here.
We said we know since 2013 and he came straight from Gambia with flight.
We were scared that they will suspect a sham marriage if we tell them we met online and we were only a few months together before the marriage.
We were also scared that they will send him back to Germany if we tell them that he is from there.

After one and a half days in custody he got taken into detention.
Today they told him that they saw that he was in Swiss and Germany.
On Thursday he is supposed to be having a bail hearing.

When they came he still did not tell them the real truth and said he lived in a boy's house who he met in the train he did not say he came because of me. he also told them he used to help some people loading containers for some pocket money

The truth is he came straight to me. He is scared to tell them because they may think I am involved in bringing him here. He never claimed anything here nor did he ever work illegal nor did he claim benefits in Germany while he was here.
He asked to see the interviewer again to tell them the truth now. that he is here because of me and was in my house from day one.

If he will get sent back to Germany. will I be able to get him back here???
I just wanna die.
I know after telling all these lies they will not believe us anything anymore

You have probably made it as bad as can be.
Abuse of EU rights is one of the few ways to exclude yourself or a dependent from enjoying those rights (short of being a threat to public safety &/or public health).

You will need to practice telling the truth in all dealings with these type of officials.

Your story is so garbled and I don't know what to believe so it seems impossible to offer a way ahead for you.

OMG if YOU dont believe me now then they will never ever believe me. But this is the complete truth. I have no reason to register here and write a story to seek advise if it wasnt true.

What is the safety threat here? We never applied for any benefits or took anything from anybody. I am working since I came here. I am a health care assistant and Counsellor.
We did not harm anyone nor taken anything from anybody

Love can make one do stupid things,
The reason for lying how he came here and that we know each other since 2013 is that we did not want to lose each other. And now that is what is going to happen.
We thought nobody will ever believe that we are real if we explain the reality.

By force they must think it is a sham or he tricked me. People have different judgements on mixed couples. They are always suspicious. British and british couples meet on dating sites and get married with kids in a year.
But if a mixed couple meets online it is always a sham.

My story is true and I feel kind of offended to be told I am here to tell lies.
Why should I do that? I have other problems as I will really kill myself if I have to live without him.

Zimsparta wrote: My story is true and I feel kind of offended to be told I am here to tell lies.

Subject Title: Did we mess up the Residence Permit because we lied??

Zimsparta wrote:OMG if YOU dont believe me now then they will never ever believe me. But this is the complete truth. I have no reason to register here and write a story to seek advise if it wasnt true.

...

My story is true and I feel kind of offended to be told I am here to tell lies.
Why should I do that? I have other problems as I will really kill myself if I have to live without him.

You would not believe some of the posts that crop up here on the boards, surprisingly frequently.

However I did not say you are lying (although I think your title mentions that matter) - I said its hard to know what to believe.

Anyway you don't need to persuade people here. It is the HO you need to win over and they are a hard-nosed bunch that plays hard ball.
If you watch or read the media you may know how the wind blows in the immigration world these days.

Many here have suffered at the hands of HO in one way or another.
However people may not be motivated to take the time and chip in if they cannot tell what is what.

Suggest try to calm down. And stand by.

okay. I have lied about the way he came and how we met but everything else is true. I get that the HO are very very hard. they even refused the application on imaginary grounds. as they said it wasnt registered within 4 weeks is the time between 15/05 and 02/06 more than two weeks?

Also I wonder how that Mr Abdullah from the home office proves his own authority when he signs a letter. Its up to me to prove that the registrar is a 'competent authority' how can i prove that? by asking the person his certificates?

This appeal finding by the Deputy Judge of the Tribunal will give you an in-depth understanding how a decision is made in a similar case to yours.

https://tribunalsdecisions.service.gov. ... ukut-00024

Proxy marriages are now coming under a great deal of scrutiny by the Home Office, following increasing use of proxy marriage certificate in sham relationships. I'm not suggesting that yours is, but you will have been caught in the same net...hence the arrest when attending interview. As you're now aware, the deception in the application has only complicated an already difficult situation.
See this article: http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014 ... age-misuse

The fact that you feel more comfortable within the Gambian community may actually go against you, as it could be argued that you would be able to settle together in his home country.

Edit: In addition you may find this article helpful:
https://www.freemovement.org.uk/proxy-m ... -domicile/

Wow, that is a mess.

You should consider taking urgent legal advice, because there are a number of criminal offences that might have been committed on the basis of what you've said, let alone the immigration problems.

avjones wrote:Wow, that is a mess.

You should consider taking urgent legal advice, because there are a number of criminal offences that might have been committed on the basis of what you've said, let alone the immigration problems.

+1 Amanda.

avjones wrote:Wow, that is a mess.

You should consider taking urgent legal advice, because there are a number of criminal offences that might have been committed on the basis of what you've said, let alone the immigration problems.

Number of criminal offenses.

I am lost.

Yes they lied about when and how their relationship started and when the guy entered and who he was living with.

That is hardly number of criminal offenses.

Clearly they should not have lied, and i strongly detest that, but if indeed their marriage is recognised by the German and Gambian authorities, and if their relationship is genuine, which on the face, appears to be the case, then it is hard to see the abuse in marriage of convenience context, and i dont quite get the number of criminal offenses. Perhaps i am missing something.

Clearly she did something wrong in not being truthful, but i dont think scaring the OP is helpful either.

Your own position is also under threat. EU citizens found to be lying to immigration officers can be in serious trouble in terms of their own reisdence in the UK, not just in relation to proxy-husband-number-3!

Just for starters, all the following offences under the Immigration Act 1971 are worrying:

s.24 Illegal entry

s.24A Deception.

(1)A person who is not a British citizen is guilty of an offence if, by means which include deception by him—
(a)he obtains or seeks to obtain leave to enter or remain in the United Kingdom; or
(b)he secures or seeks to secure the avoidance, postponement or revocation of enforcement action against him.

s.25 Assisting unlawful immigration to member State

(1)A person commits an offence if he—
(a)does an act which facilitates the commission of a breach of immigration law by an individual who is not a citizen of the European Union,
(b)knows or has reasonable cause for believing that the act facilitates the commission of a breach of immigration law by the individual, and
(c)knows or has reasonable cause for believing that the individual is not a citizen of the European Union.

26 General offences in connection with administration of Act.

(1)A person shall be guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction with a fine of not more than on the standard scale] or with imprisonment for not more than six months, or with both, in any of the following cases—


(c)if on any such examination or otherwise he makes or causes to be made to an immigration officer or other person lawfully acting in the execution of a return, statement or representation which he knows to be false or does not believe to be true;

Obie wrote:

avjones wrote:Wow, that is a mess.

You should consider taking urgent legal advice, because there are a number of criminal offences that might have been committed on the basis of what you've said, let alone the immigration problems.

Number of criminal offenses.

I am lost.

Yes they lied about when and how their relationship started and when the guy entered and who he was living with.

That is hardly number of criminal offenses.

Clearly they should not have lied, and i strongly detest that, but if indeed their marriage is recognised by the German and Gambian authorities, and if their relationship is genuine, which on the face, appears to be the case, then it is hard to see the abuse in marriage of convenience context, and i dont quite get the number of criminal offenses. Perhaps i am missing something.

Clearly she did something wrong in not being truthful, but i dont think scaring the OP is helpful either.

Well - yes, it is indeed a number of offences! Have a look at the Immigration Act 1971. You are missing the fact that lying to immigration officers ("makes or causes to be made to an immigration officer..... return, statement or representation which he knows to be false or does not believe to be true...), entering illegally, etc.

There are a significant number of criminal offences that are highly relevant. Giving false reassurance isn't remotely helpful.

If someone were to ask, what are the chances of arrest, prosecution or action under the 2006 EEA regulations, that's a different question. I only come across the cases where it goes wrong, after all. I'm Counsel, not a solicitor.

But the UKVI certainly can and most certainly does sometimes refer deception cases for prosecution. I've met some of those prosecuted, and others proceeded against under the EEA Regs.

If OP is correct that her marriage is valid in Gambia and Germany accepts it, then it follow that the 1971 act is not applicable.

They were not seeking leave, as they dont require it under the Directive or EU law or our domestic legislation.

It follow that her spouse could not have sought leave by deception.

Remember, they were seeking to get married, not seeking leave. If the marriage in Gambia is lawful, then it could not be said they are seeking to get married by deception as they are already married.

I accept that telling lies to a public officer is an offense, but i find it hard to see any immigration offense or offenses under the regulations.

If it is found that the marriage is recognised in Germany and in Gambia, then it is the Home Office that is likely in breach of EU law.

No, you are wrong. Normal criminal law applies to lying etc, it is leave / removals / deportations which take place under the EEA Regs, *not* criminal law.

Various of the offences under the 1971 Act include illegal entry, or facilitating it (which happened in this case) and deception to avoid enforcement action and to attempt to gain leave by deception. The fact that you don't need leave to remain doesn't actually mean you can't commit the offence of attempting to obtain it.

And under the EEA Regs, before you get to the EEA-type defences, "spouse" doesn't include a person who is party to a marriage by convenience. So it doesn't just matter whether the marriage is valid as a matter of black letter law. That is necessary, but not sufficient. In addition, once the Home Office raises a reasonable suspicion that the marriage is a sham, it is for the couple to prove it is not. No-one's going to dispute that there are reasonable suspicions here, and it's going to be an uphill struggle to demonstrate that it is genuine. There is no chance of persuading the Home Office of that, it's going to be an appeal or nothing.

Unless the Op has told you something which has not been disclosed to us, marriage of convenience has not been alleged by the Home Office.

Only people who require leave to remain can commit the offense of seeking leave to remain in the UK.

It will be absurd for a British or EU national to be done for seeking leave when they dont require it.

As i said again, the act in question was done to enable OP to get married and not to apply for leave to remain.

The interview was for permission to get married not for residence card.

The suspicion of a sham marriage may be inferred in the OP's comment "They also mentioned that I was married to Gambians before. Got rejected in January."
...and wasn't this application an attempt to legalise his right to remain? Applied for residence card in August. and again regarding the suspected sham marriage "And there is all the reference to previous Gambian husbands in the RFRL"

Edit: Posted at the same minute as Amanda

Looks to me as if it has been:

"Came to my house before xmas 2014
We have proof of address since feb 2015
in May 15 we got married by double proxy.
Applied for residence card in August.
Got rejected in January."

And there is all the reference to previous Gambian husbands in the RFRL

Obie wrote:Unless the Op has told you something which has not been disclosed to us, marriage of convenience has not been alleged by the Home Office.

Only people who require leave to remain can commit the offense of seeking leave to remain in the UK.

It will be absurd for a British or EU national to be done for seeking leave when they dont require it.

As i said again, the act in question was done to enable OP to get married and not to apply for leave to remain.

The interview was for permission to get married not for residence card.

OP said "Applied for residence card in August."

Casa wrote:The suspicion of a sham marriage may be inferred in the OP's comment "They also mentioned that I was married to Gambians before."
and wasn't this application an attempt to legalise his right to remain? Applied for residence card in August.

With one of these guys she has a 12 years old child.

She has been going to Gambia for 22 years, and had 2 unsuccessful marriages, and loves Gambian men.

Nothing unusual.

I have a friend who has had 2 Morrocan husband, said she will never dream of going to an English man again.

I lived in Gambia as a child, and have been on holiday there several times. I saw many caucasian women and men, who told me they did not believe life was worth living or the concept of love actually exist until they went to Gambia.
Sorry for backtracking. Just making the point that there is nothing unusual about OP's case.

UKVI are calling many genuine marriages a sham these day.

I dont need to go too far.

I saw the refusals of 2 members of this forum who were refused on marriage of convenience. One has a 2 year old child with the EEA nation, the other is a female who has a 9 month old child with an EEA passport with the EEsA national, and that did not stop the lunatics from saying their marriage was convenience.

An organisation that sends over 30,000 students home for the last 2 years on the bases of groundless evidence which the court has criticised, is not one that is worth taking seriously.

They are still removing people under s.10 notices now, did you know? Qadri is apparently NOT going to be a reported case.

...as I commented earlier the the thread, the OP's stated love of the Gambian culture, over it appears her own British cultural background, may well go against her when claiming she would be unable to settle with her husband in Gambia.

Casa wrote:...as I commented earlier the the thread, the OP's stated love of the Gambian culture, over it appears her own British cultural background, may well go against her when claiming she would be unable to settle with her husband in Gambia.

That's not particularly relevant for EEA cases, though. It's a UK test. What is the problem is the mounds of evidence they've given to discredit the marriage

Casa wrote:...as I commented earlier the the thread, the OP's stated love of the Gambian culture, over it appears her own British cultural background, may well go against her when claiming she would be unable to settle with her husband in Gambia.

OP is German

Obie wrote:

Casa wrote:...as I commented earlier the the thread, the OP's stated love of the Gambian culture, over it appears her own British cultural background, may well go against her when claiming she would be unable to settle with her husband in Gambia.

OP is German

You're correct of course Obie, but the sentiment is the same "I am moving within Gambians for 22 years and you fall in love in the society you move in. I am so used to the culture that I struggle with White men." Hardly strengthens the cause to remain in the UK together.

Obie wrote: She has been going to Gambia for 22 years, and had 2 unsuccessful marriages, and loves Gambian men.

Nothing unusual.


UKVI are calling many genuine marriages a sham these day.

3 marriages isn't all that common. 3 marriages to men who are not from either the country you started off in, or the country you've chosen to live in, but all from a small country a long way away, that is pretty unusual.

Chuck in all 3 of them apparently needing visas / residence card, and that collection of facts in and of itself does raise eyebrows in immigration terms.

Then, of course, you throw in a proxy marriage. They cause a LOT of trouble. Many proxy marriages are utterly genuine and subsisting. But there is a large scope for abuse - I've come across several cases of people applying for residence cards on the basis of "proxy marriages" in Ghana with EEA nationals who've never even heard of the country, let alone married someone from there.

Throw in illegal entry, lying like mad at interview, and being caught out on at least some of it, and you have (1) immigration trouble, and (2) the *risk* (not the certainty) of criminal law trouble.