UK EU referendum confirmed for summer 2016

Obie wrote:The EU will be a laughing stock if it allows the UK to undermine it's founding principle and impose breaks in movement of people .

It will merely be reminding the EU that it started as an economic community and that is the way that some people wish to keep it. Ever closer union is not welcome to all.

Obie wrote:Polish children are not filling in UK schools , and most statistics shows that EU migrant tends to be single and mostly come to UK for work or search of work.

Somali are refuges, who are not part of UK international agreement on free movement.

The last time I checked, I don't think Somalia was part of EU.

Perception is reality. If that is what people percieve, that is what they believe is true. The actual truth does not matter.

Obie wrote:EU is getting more powerful and a power to be recon with.

If you mean in domestic interference, I agree. Better to get out before it completely stifles all national existence.

Obie wrote:The problem in the UK is this empire mentality, which has left UK hated in most quarter of the world.

People have always hated success. We should be damned proud of ours.

Obie wrote:The cannot expect to make laws for Scotland , Wales and Northern Ireland in non- devolved areas and then get upset when laws are made in Brussels.

Northern Ireland is British by choice. It actually surrendered some power back to Westminster just two years ago. Wales does not have a separatist bent like Scotland because it shares a considerably longer history with England. And as for Scotland, if there were a referendum in the whole of the UK on Scottish independence, they would be booted out by an overwhelming majority even if they wanted to stay.

secret.simon wrote: It will merely be reminding the EU that it started as an economic community and that is the way that some people wish to keep it. Ever closer union is not welcome to all.

With due respect Simon, the EEC became a political entity in 1992 when it turned into the EU. The EEC doesn't exist any more.
You are 23 years late to the party. What is it that "some people wish to keep"?

While the EEC turned into the EU in 1992, its character is turning more into a unified political state with each treaty since Maastricht (Amsterdam 1997-99, Nice 2001-03 & Lisbon 2007-09). It has been argued that the Lisbon Treaty was the same as the proposed EU Constitution and that it was implemented as a Treaty to bypass more referendums and rejections after that Constitution was rejected by voters in France and the Netherlands.

Perhaps the Maastricht rebels in 1992 were right after all. Had we hit the brakes at that time, Europe would not have been so centralised and domineering.

The what-you-call Maastricht rebels (I think you mean UKIP and various neo-fascist parties like Front National, Lega Nord and other openly dearly beloved fractions in East Europe) have not come up with a rational plan on what they would do once a nation breaks away from the EU. Stay in the EEA? Complete breakup from the EEA? Complete repudiation of all European treaties, including the ones involving NATO, WTO, IMF, World Bank, etc? Complete isolation? Self sufficiency? A return to the British Empire?

UKIP and the likes have never come out with a straight answer and will never come out with one because: 1) it requires some sort of political intelligence, which is in short supply in their ranks apart from Farage and Carswell. 2) It would alienate part of their voting base 3) there's no straight answer. This is is unchartered territory and politicians who use Brexit for a cheap political score are irresponsible.

rooibos wrote:The what-you-call Maastricht rebels (I think you mean UKIP and various neo-fascist parties like Front National, Lega Nord and other openly dearly beloved fractions in East Europe)

I am not old...well, atleast I don't feel old...but my word, you make me feel ancient.

You may wish to read the headlines from 1992 when the Maastricht Treaty had to be legislated into UK domestic law by Act of Parliament. The Conservative Party had a bare majority in the Commons (like right now) and John Major's government was repeatedly defeated in the Commons on various parts of the Maastricht Treaty by members party voting against it. They were called the Maastricht rebels. Had they succeeded in defeating the Maastricht Treaty itself, we would not have come to this pass and this forum would have been moot.

Interestingly, not only are many of them still in Parliament, two of them are members of Her Majesty's Government; Iain Duncan Smith and John Whittingdale.

As for the political intelligence required come up with a straight answer of what if the UK leaves the EU, there is none, because the UK leaving the EU will also change the EU, as much as it changes the UK if not more.

Firstly, it will set a precedent that a major country (the third largest economy) can walk out of the EU if the EU gets overbearing.

Secondly, if Scotland votes to leave the UK and attempt to join the EU in a hypothetical second referendum, parts of Belgium (both halves), Italy (the North) and Spain (Catalonia) will all clamour to leave their countries but remain part of the EU.

The EU will be in far worse turmoil than the UK. And then if some other countries decide to exit, following on from the precedent of the UK, the EU will be left a rump of its former self. It would be very ironic if the EU, which is one of the greatest achievements of diplomacy in modern times, is destroyed because it failed at diplomatically coming to agreement with its own member states.

That is why it is also in the EU's self-interest to negotiate with the UK.

Anyway, for some crystal ball gazing into 2016, have a listen (iPlayer so only accessible within the UK) to the BBC News Review of the Year at 53 minutes into the programme. On a lighter note, for those of you who can never remember the planets of the solar system, there is a wonderful mnemonic at 51:45 minutes into the programme.

@secret.simion i will advise you to get off your high horse and look into figures which are based on statistics
and also i will request you to look into the figuers and studies before you claim that scotland is a poor country
without UK.See yourself and challenge it with your assumptions..do not be offended face the reality...mate

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/econ ... harts.html

http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/10 ... nt-nation/

But the view from my high horse is awesome

A thread about the forthcoming EU Referendum on an immigration forum is probably not the best place to discuss viewpoints on the Scottish economy.

Suffice to say that
a) the link that you provided from the Telegraph actually states my side of the argument, not yours.
b) The Business for Scotland link that you provide is based on oil prices being above $110 and considers the OBR's forecast of $80 as too negative. Now, in real life, it is $35, less than a third of the level that the Business for Scotland's case is predicated on.
c) Much of Scotland's corporate wealth is mainly UK companies, such as Lloyds, TSB, HBOS & RBS, who are headquartered in Scotland. If the UK splits, those companies will have to be redomiciled in England to conform to EU laws (which Scotland will want to follow). Otherwise, they will dwarf the Scottish economy more than the Icelandic banks (this point is mentioned in the Telegraph article).

Here is another view on possible developments in Scotland: A British departure from the EU will not inevitably lead to Scottish independence

Back to the EU referendum, I would suggest following two blogs from the LSE;
Brexit
European Politics and Policy

And I wish everybody on these forums a happy 2016, it looks like it will be interesting enough. See you all in the New Year.

Obie wrote: German has absorbed 1 million already this year, with little complaint.

I really don't know why you keep claiming this. What are you trying to do? I am alarmed about the incorrect picture you are painting. Only a teeny-tiny fraction has been "absorbed" - if any at all.

Have you actually been to Germany?

I have been there several times since the refugee crisis started and have returned only yesterday from Berlin.

What I have seen in English language media so far has either been translated very selectively (out of context) or simply translated incorrectly.

The reality I have seen is that the purpose-built reception centres have been filled to overcrowding months ago, that refugees are housed in re-purposed gym halls and warehouses and even tents (yes, it is getting colder and colder) with little to no privacey. Refugees are assigned to small communities that literally do not know where to put them.

Also, quite a few of them seem "to have been told" prior to starting their journey that they can immediately work or study, which is not the case at all. Work permission is only given once an asylum application has been decided positively, which usually takes several months. Also, while there are no tuition fees in Germany, taking up university studies usually stops all social security benefits.

My mother's friend who volunteers as a teacher of German as a foreign language has been telling me of the intense frustration and boredom many refugees experience. Many regret having paid tens of thousands of Euro to people smugglers only to end up in an overcrowded, noisy gym hall with no end in sight.

I am not expecting an answer to my query/worry just really your thoughts and opinions on this. I am a Spanish national, however I have lived in the UK since I was 4. I am now 27 years of age and I am employed as a police officer. I have been a police officer since February 2010 so almost six years now. My history in this country includes going through the whole education system here (primary school high school sixth form university etc).
As you are aware there will be a referendum on the UK's continued membership of the eu before the end of 2017 (probably will be held this year if you read the papers and listen to Mr Cameron). I am extremely concerned of the possibility of the outcome being a 'leave' result or as it has been labelled a 'Brexit' would mean not just to me, but other eu nationals in the same or similar position to myself. Would i be required to politely leave? Would I have to apply for a visa to stay here? Would I lose my job which I love as a police officer? So many unanswered questions and at this stage the only responses I am getting are merely conjecture.
Are you aware of any reciprocal arrangements that the government may introduce for expats and eu citizens living in the uk post Brexit? The consequences for me personally would be enormous. All my family are in England and I don't even know how to speak Spanish! I am in the middle of the laborious and complicated process of attempting to apply for British citizenship but the home office seen to change the goal posts when they see fit to make it seemingly more difficult for me to obtain this privilege. I am now required to apply for permanent residency first, wait one year after receiving the permanent residence certificate, and then apply for British citizenship. Basically the earliest I am able to officially apply for British citizenship will be may 2017 way after what I believe will be the outcome of the referendum.
I look forward to reading any response and thank you for taking the time to read my email.

alvarez0306 wrote:I am now required to apply for permanent residency first, wait one year after receiving the permanent residence certificate, and then apply for British citizenship. Basically the earliest I am able to officially apply for British citizenship will be may 2017

You have almost certainly acquired permanent residence (you don't apply for it) already, and in the worst case scenario you will only need to wait until February 2016 until you have held it for 12 months. I have read online that being in compulsory education (primary/secondary school) counts towards PR also. If this is true, you will have held PR for a very long time!

You have two options and both are good:

1) Call UKVI and ask them to confirm whether being in compulsory education counts towards PR clock. If it does, complete the EEA(PR) application and submit it immediately.

2) If the above fails, complete the EEA(PR) application on the basis of exercising treaty rights as a worker for the period February 2010 to February 2015. Wait until a week or two after the date you started working as a police officer in Feb 2010 and then submit the EEA(PR).

In both cases, once you receive the document certifying permanent residence, you will be able to submit the naturalisation application immediately. ACT FAST! The EEA(PR) can take up to 6 months and naturalisation....well you've seen the timelines!

ohara wrote:

alvarez0306 wrote:I am now required to apply for permanent residency first, wait one year after receiving the permanent residence certificate, and then apply for British citizenship. Basically the earliest I am able to officially apply for British citizenship will be may 2017

You have almost certainly acquired permanent residence (you don't apply for it) already, and in the worst case scenario you will only need to wait until February 2016 until you have held it for 12 months. I have read online that being in compulsory education (primary/secondary school) counts towards PR also. If this is true, you will have held PR for a very long time!

You have two options and both are good:

1) Call UKVI and ask them to confirm whether being in compulsory education counts towards PR clock. If it does, complete the EEA(PR) application and submit it immediately.

2) If the above fails, complete the EEA(PR) application on the basis of exercising treaty rights as a worker for the period February 2010 to February 2015. Wait until a week or two after the date you started working as a police officer in Feb 2010 and then submit the EEA(PR).

In both cases, once you receive the document certifying permanent residence, you will be able to submit the naturalisation application immediately. ACT FAST! The EEA(PR) can take up to 6 months and naturalisation....well you've seen the timelines!

Thanks for your reply ohara. I have already applied for permenent residency in November 2015, on the basis of exercising my treaty rights by working from February 2010-February 2015. But I provided loads of evidence which covered up to September 2015 just to be on the safe side. As far as I am aware I should successfully get this permanent residency certificate around may time and then I'll have to wait one year from receiving that certificate when I am able to apply for citizenship.
In relation to the education thing counting towards pr, I sincerely doubt that the home office are that generous to allow this

http://www.housing-rights.info/EEA-chil ... cation.php

Also, have a look at the latest version of AN Booklet. It includes the following paragraphs:

If you are a national of a country which is a member state of the EEA or Switzerland, or the
family member of such a person, you will automatically have permanent residence status
after exercising EEA free movement rights in the UK for any continuous period of 5 years
ending on or after 30 April 2006. You should apply for a permanent residence card to prove
that you hold that status before applying for citizenship.

But remember that, unless you are married to or the civil partner of a British citizen, you
should normally have held permanent resident status for 12 months before applying for
naturalisation. This means that you may need to wait until you have been in the United
Kingdom for 6 years before you can apply. When you apply for a permanent residence
document the evidence that you supply for your EEA(PR) application must be for a 5 year
period that ended at least a year before you want to apply for citizenship.

I had not seen this before I sent my EEA(PR) in. Thankfully I sent evidence of 6 years exercising treaty rights anyway. The text also implies that the naturalisation application processing team have a system in place which allows them to check the date on which you acquired PR. So no need to wait a year after getting the document. I will be applying immediately when I get mine.

ohara wrote:http://www.housing-rights.info/EEA-chil ... cation.php

Also, have a look at the latest version of AN Booklet. It includes the following paragraphs:

If you are a national of a country which is a member state of the EEA or Switzerland, or the
family member of such a person, you will automatically have permanent residence status
after exercising EEA free movement rights in the UK for any continuous period of 5 years
ending on or after 30 April 2006. You should apply for a permanent residence card to prove
that you hold that status before applying for citizenship.

But remember that, unless you are married to or the civil partner of a British citizen, you
should normally have held permanent resident status for 12 months before applying for
naturalisation. This means that you may need to wait until you have been in the United
Kingdom for 6 years before you can apply. When you apply for a permanent residence
document the evidence that you supply for your EEA(PR) application must be for a 5 year
period that ended at least a year before you want to apply for citizenship.

I had not seen this before I sent my EEA(PR) in. Thankfully I sent evidence of 6 years exercising treaty rights anyway. The text also implies that the naturalisation application processing team have a system in place which allows them to check the date on which you acquired PR. So no need to wait a year after getting the document. I will be applying immediately when I get mine.

In my circumstances, will I be successful in applying for permanent residency on the basis of being a police officer from Feb 2010- Feb 2015? I submitted all the relevant evidence to cover these respected dates. I would be extremely surprised if I was not successful. And then upon receiving the PR certificate I'll wait one year to apply for citizenship. That's all correct isn't it?

You should have PR no problem. My point is that you should not have to wait 12 months after receiving your PR document before applying for naturalisation. You will hit 12 months of holding PR in February 2016, so give it a couple of weeks as safety buffer, then bang in your application.

ohara wrote:You should have PR no problem. My point is that you should not have to wait 12 months after receiving your PR document before applying for naturalisation. You will hit 12 months of holding PR in February 2016, so give it a couple of weeks as safety buffer, then bang in your application.

Make no bones about it I completely agree that that's what SHOULD be the case but I've read a few people on here and on the internet that from November 12 2015 you need to have had that permanent residency certificate for 12 months in your possession before applying for citizenship. This obviously contradicts what the home office themselves state is the qualifying criteria for applying for British citizenship (you should simply hold pr for 12 months). People have stated on this forum that they have been told by the ncs workers that their application would be refused if they went ahead with applying for citizenship without having had that certificate for 12 months. So it's an expensive gamble to go ahead without having waited 12 months with that certificate.

I am completely perplexed and angry at this it's absolutely absurd and have no idea why I'm and many other people in my situation are being made to feel alienated like this. The eu referendum has got me concerned as to what my position will be if the uk votes 'leave'. I've never committed a crime, I have a career as a police officer gone through the education system here and I'm being made to feel like an alien or a criminal. I completely emphasise and understand what people like you ohara and other people are going through in similar situations to mine. I'm sorry for the pessimistic post but everywhere I turn there is anti eu or anti immigration in the news and media which seems to incite members of the public who will probably vote 'leave'.

I don't see the changes as suggesting that your PR commences from the day your card was issued.

It simply says, that evidence of settlement can be evidence by the issue of a permanent Registration certificate.

Obie wrote:I don't see the changes as suggesting that your PR commences from the day your card was issued.

It simply says, that evidence of settlement can be evidence by the issue of a permanent Registration certificate.

Obie I appreciate what your saying and I've read a few of your comments on this forum you seem wise and articulate enough to have a thorough understanding of immigration matters. However, from reading posts from persons that have personally rang up ncs employees and queried this, they have been told that their citizenship application would be refused if they had not waited one year with that PR certificate in their possession. It's just an expensive gamble to make I thjnk

I suspect there is some confusion and NCS people have not been properly briefed yet. It does state in the case worker guidance (I can't find the exact document now, it's the one in landscape with nice little hyperlinks at the sides), which specifically states that the date on a PR document is not indicative of when PR was actually acquired, and checks should be made to confirm.

If someone could post the link to that document here, it would be very useful as I will print the relevant page and take it to NCS appointment with me when I eventually do it.

@OHara
You are looking for Page 22 of the internal guidance linked to below.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _0_EXT.pdf

@alvarez0306
Obie and I do not necessarily see eye-to-eye (just read this thread), but I respect his knowledge of the law and would take that much more seriously than that of either the NCS employees or the Home Office phone line, the latter of which has been known to give incorrect information for which they are not held accountable.

secret.simon wrote:@OHara
You are looking for Page 22 of the internal guidance linked to below.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _0_EXT.pdf

@alvarez0306
Obie and I do not necessarily see eye-to-eye (just read this thread), but I respect his knowledge of the law and would take that much more seriously than that of either the NCS employees or the Home Office phone line, the latter of which has been known to give incorrect information for which they are not held accountable.

Well that hyperlink you have displayed seemed pretty concise and clear in suggesting that Ohara is correct; you shouldn't need to wait one year from obtaining the permanent residency document and should just go ahead with applying for naturalisation as long as 6 years have past and you have the document to hand. I wonder what this 'cid' system is that they will use and the accuracy of it. I am still somewhat hesitant to bang in the citizenship application when I get the pr document as I know how Erm maybe incompetent is a strong word but how inconsistent The home office sometimes are. I may wait for further clarification or for someone else's experience in doing this. 1000 quid is a gamble after all. An expensive one at That!

Thanks for the advice secret Simon obie and Ohara

secret.simon wrote:@OHara
You are looking for Page 22 of the internal guidance linked to below.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _0_EXT.pdf

Good effort, I spent all day looking for that and couldn't find the bugger anywhere.

It is important to note that the date of issue on a PR or DCPR does not necessarily reflect
the date that the PR was actually acquired. You must, therefore, check CID to see whether
the date the PR was deemed to have been acquired has been recorded.

That's the part that definitely confirms it. The way I see it, is that if you apply and they chicken it up and get it wrong, you should be able to challenge it without paying for a reconsideration because they have not applied their own guidance correctly.

ohara wrote:

secret.simon wrote:@OHara
You are looking for Page 22 of the internal guidance linked to below.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _0_EXT.pdf

Good effort, I spent all day looking for that and couldn't find the bugger anywhere.

It is important to note that the date of issue on a PR or DCPR does not necessarily reflect
the date that the PR was actually acquired. You must, therefore, check CID to see whether
the date the PR was deemed to have been acquired has been recorded.

That's the part that definitely confirms it. The way I see it, is that if you apply and they chicken it up and get it wrong, you should be able to challenge it without paying for a reconsideration because they have not applied their own guidance correctly.

I agree ohara that last paragraph confirms it. I have a few worries and reservations on it though. For starters it mentions that the case worker would have to check 'cid to see whether the date pr was deemed to have been acquired was recorded'. I can see in some instances that maybe they don't bother recording it? It is the home office after all! It would be a gamble to apply for citizenship as soon as the pr confirmation was sent to me and I am 50/50 on this so far.
What are you planning on doing Ohara? I had thought about just sending that document with my application, along with 6 years of proof of exercising treaty rights (employment letters, relevant p60s etc) which show the date that PR would have been given along with the PR document. I have emailed a couple immigration solicitors and the response I have received has been Positive on this note. They mention nothing about waiting a further 12 months after receiving PR document and all state as long as I have exercised treaty rights for a further 12 months and have a PR document I can apply for citizenship. I may wait and see how other people's experience pans out before deciding. As it stands May 2016 is when the six month time limit is up for my PR document to have been processed

Casa wrote:Please can we keep this thread strictly on-topic. UK EU IN OUT REFRENDUM CONFIRMED SUMMER 2016!!!!

Apologies casa. But to be fair my original post was 100% relating to the eu referendum. The subsequent conversation naturally followed to talking about citizenship.

Back to topic then. Anyone have any idea or prediction what will happen in the case of a 'Brexit'. As in what kind of free trade deals the U.K. May or may not make with the eu? Worrying and unprecedented times indeed

I don't believe we will leave.