Do I need visa for France?/ French emba refused visa

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Do I need visa for France?/ French emba refused visa

Postby bluecole2 » Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:03 am

Hi guys

Just got a rc just about a month ago. My wife and I want to go to her home country- France on holiday.

Will I need a visa or does she qualify as an eea national in France which means I will not need a visa to enter France.

Thanks in advance.
Last edited by bluecole2 on Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Directive/2004/38/EC » Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:52 pm

What does the french embassy web site say?

In general when you have a RC as the family member of an Eu citizen, then you do not need a visa.
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Postby bluecole2 » Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:00 pm

Thanks Directive/2004/38/E for your response, for some reason I didn't get your reply until now. I thought no one was interested in finding a solution to this topic.

Anyway I did apply for a visa and it was refused, I got my passport today. I did apply according to the info on this website-

https://www.tlscontact.com/gb2fr/help.p ... _residency

My British residency card states that I am the "Family Member of an EEA national". Do I require a visa to travel to France?
If your British residency card states "Family Member of an EEA national", this family member is not a French or UK citizen, you have official documentation to prove this relationship and you are either travelling together with this person or going to meet them in France, you do not require a visa to travel. However, if you fail to meet any of these criteria, you do require a visa to travel. Please note the the exact words "Family Member of an EEA national" must be written on your residency card and that the quality of simply "being" a family member of an EEA national does not remove the passport holder's requirement to obtain a visa for travel.

The reason for refusal is: the Consulate-General of France in London has examined your visa application : the visa has been refused.

This decision is based on the following reason

2. [] justification for the purpose and conditions of the intended stay was not provided,

My question now are:
According to the eea directives(if it applies)-
Do I need a visa to enter France and is there a way I can exercise my right- if any.

Are they allowed to refuse non-eea spouse of a French citizen exercising treaty right in another member state visa based on the point 'justification for the purpose and conditions of the intended stay was not provided'? Even though we'll be traveling together.

Guys please help with every possible info and links to help me know what to do next especially if I'll accompany my wife. Our flights is only a couple of weeks away.
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Postby Casa » Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:09 pm

I'm sorry but I don't have sufficient knowledge of EU regulations to be able to add anything to the advice you've already been given.
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Postby Directive/2004/38/EC » Fri Dec 02, 2011 6:10 pm

You are married to a French citizen and you live in the UK.
You have a RC.

Has your French citizen spouse been working?

Why are you applying for a visa? Have you ever previously travelled to France with your spouse?

Note: http://www.ambafrance-uk.org/Visa-for-f ... n-European
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Postby bluecole2 » Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:49 am

Thanks Directives/2004/38/EC

Yes She's been working and still working.

I've never been to France before

If you check the link in previous post you will find this info- If your British residency card states "Family Member of an EEA national", this family member is not a French or UK citizen, you have official documentation to prove this relationship and you are either travelling together with this person or going to meet them in France, you do not require a visa to travel. However, if you fail to meet any of these criteria, you do require a visa to travel. Please note the the exact words "Family Member of an EEA national" must be written on your residency card and that the quality of simply "being" a family member of an EEA national does not remove the passport holder's requirement to obtain a visa for travel.

I found this in the link you posted- The foreign spouse of a EU national (except French national) may enter France without visa if they are holding:
 a valid travel document;
 a valid UK residence permit with the endorsement "family member of EEA national" (this endorsement is compulsory to be visa exempted);
 and if they are joining or travelling with the EU national.
If you do not satisfy the above conditions, you will need to apply for a visa to travel to France (for instance if your residency is not explicit or if you are travelling to France for business).

I heard that if we intend to return to home country of eea spouse we can do so by continuing to exercise treaty right in France if my spouse has been working for a year or something like that.

If that's the case why can we travel to France on holiday as an eea national rather than French national and her spouse?
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Postby Directive/2004/38/EC » Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:05 pm

bluecole2 wrote:Yes She's been working and still working.

Super! So Singh applies to you.

bluecole2 wrote:I've never been to France before

OK, so you do not have prior experience to relax your visit. But it is a nice place. A bit cold in the winter, but spring and summer and early fall are lovely!

bluecole2 wrote:If that's the case why can we travel to France on holiday as an eea national rather than French national and her spouse?

I am not sure if I understand this question.


I believe these are facts of your case (correct me if I am wrong).
(1) You are married to and living with a French citizen who is exercising her treaty rights in the UK by working.
(2) Because of (1) you have a Residence Card
(3) As such, you are entitled to use EU law for any entry into France. (You need to carry a marriage certificate and proof your wife is working in the UK when travelling)
(4) A family member of an EU citizen who has a "Residence Card" and who is entering France, does not need a visa.
(5) If you ever have a problem when traveling with your EU citizen spouse, where a border guard of any member state says "Oh Ah, but you zhould haav a visa and you haav no visa!", then you need to be very aware of http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2010/08 ... to-travel/ Print it and read it carefully. It includes quotes from the Schengen border guard manual.


How are you planning to travel to France?
Last edited by Directive/2004/38/EC on Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby bluecole2 » Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:24 am

Thanks once again for your response to detail Directive 2004/38/EC,

YOU WROTE: I am not sure if I understand this question.

I WROTE: ''I heard that if we intend to return to home country of eea spouse we can do so by continuing to exercise treaty right in France if my spouse has been working for a year or something like that.

If that's (above paragraph)the case, why can't we travel to France on holiday as an eea national rather than French national and her spouse?''


Well I've applied again for Visa at the French embassy. It's my first time i'll be travelling outside UK in a long long time and I'm really keen on seeing my in-laws this Christmas which implies that I don't need any border gaurd to denial me entry to France at this moment due to his/her lack of knowledge on eea directive.

So far paid twice for a visa I don't need (74£*2 including services charge) because I don't have 'livret de famillie'(family book).

This free movement concept isn't as straight forward as they may want us to believe in some cases.

I'm not aware of 'Sighn', I guess I've got a lot of reading and research to do. I guess we'll exercise our right sometime in the future by traveling to France without a visa.

In the event they refuse the visa again, is there any possibity the airport staff won't let me board the plane because I've been refused visa twice by France?

And are they allowed to stamp my passport at the border?

And is French embassy obliged to give precise and accurate information about family member of an eea national include French exercising treaty rights in another member state on their website?

Looking forward to your response, much gratitude.
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Postby bluecole2 » Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:23 pm

Sorry I forgot to say we're flying with easyjet to France.
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Postby bluecole2 » Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:31 am

I've finally been issued a visa to France:)
I applied for 3 months short stay- multiple entry
However the visa expires 15 days after I'm due to return to England

Questions
Suppose I plan to go to France for the weekend sometime in Jan or Feb (which will still be within 3 month of the date visa was issued) am I required to get another visa? If yes, this is why is so senseless to require a visa as this doesn't help to exercise free movement with ease.

Apparently I read some info that says the visa should be free but is wasn't for me, I had to pay twice as the first app was refused. Is France visa free for non eea national whose spouse is French?

And finally my visa is type C where do I queue(with my spouse?) and do I get my passport stamped?

Thanks
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Postby Directive/2004/38/EC » Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:00 pm

bluecole2 wrote:Suppose I plan to go to France for the weekend sometime in Jan or Feb (which will still be within 3 month of the date visa was issued) am I required to get another visa? If yes, this is why is so senseless to require a visa as this doesn't help to exercise free movement with ease.

Apparently I read some info that says the visa should be free but is wasn't for me, I had to pay twice as the first app was refused. Is France visa free for non eea national whose spouse is French?

And finally my visa is type C where do I queue(with my spouse?) and do I get my passport stamped?

How much exactly did you pay for the each visa application? It should have been free.
What documentation did you submit with the applications?
What exactly does the visa say on it? Does it say that you are a family member of an EU citizen?
Will you be traveling with your wife?

If you were traveling on the basis of your RC then they could not stamp your passport. If you travel on the basis of the visa, then they can stamp.
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Postby bluecole2 » Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:56 am

I paid around 74£ for each application(2 app in total), 51£ to France embassy and 23£ to TLScontact.

I submitted-
passport with residence card stamp inside
Travel insurance
Hotel reservation/lodging attestation
3 months payslips
Bank statement
Marriage cert
Spouse passport
There required I sumitted all these or visa will be refused

The visa is type C and it doesn't have family member of ... On it.

And we're traveling together
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Postby Directive/2004/38/EC » Sat Dec 24, 2011 10:34 am

bluecole2 wrote:I paid around 74£ for each application(2 app in total), 51£ to France embassy and 23£ to TLScontact.

I submitted-
passport with residence card stamp inside
Travel insurance
Hotel reservation/lodging attestation
3 months payslips
Bank statement
Marriage cert
Spouse passport
There required I sumitted all these or visa will be refused

The visa is type C and it doesn't have family member of ... On it.

And we're traveling together

You should ask for your money back. You will likely not get the money back fro TLSconnect, since you opted to use them, but you should get it back for the visas.

Send them a letter with receipts, laying out the facts (wife is french, she is working in the uk), and say that the visa should have been issued at no cost.

Are the pay slips you included from you or from your wife?
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Postby bluecole2 » Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:19 pm

:)Reporting from Langres, France :)


Pay slips are mine.

isn't it also illegal to require such amount of documents and refuse me visa because I can provide an original lodging attestation?
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Postby Directive/2004/38/EC » Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:31 am

bluecole2 wrote::)Reporting from Langres, France :)


Pay slips are mine.

isn't it also illegal to require such amount of documents and refuse me visa because I can provide an original lodging attestation?

It is illegal. That is why I suggest you request a refund (in writing) and complain like hell!
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Postby bluecole2 » Sun Jan 01, 2012 6:44 pm

I shall do so.

However at the uk border (eu passport control) today, a disgruntled female immigration officer tried to bully and oppress me and spouse but didn't let her take us for a fool.

Without opening my passport to see what sort of residence I hold, she suggested I queue elsewhere and complete a landing card. Spouse had to tell her we're traveling together and we don't think I needed to complete a landing card and ask IO if I do; to clarify our position but screwed her face and ignored my wife when she asked. So my spouse asked again and aggressively responded saying ' are you telling me or asking' I was angry and ask her to answer the question and not ignore my spouse. She reacted angrily and said 'ok you can go (refaring to my spouse) and you stay here'. I was angry and said no we're both staying here, then a gentleman (I believe is a manager) approached us ask calmly explain that she need to make further enquires but won't be long.

She asked if I've been stopped by an IMO in the past and asked about past immigration history before being told to take a sit in a sitting area. Letter after about 20 mins she came to ask me about my wife details and marriage details. Went in for 5mins and returned and told me I can go now but I'll be asked to wait everytime I come through the border until my past immigration issue is deleted.

Asked for the complaint procedure and was given a general complaint form to write them letter but insisted they give us her details but was given a warrant number i realised this is probably not the officers number but we'll give as much details as possible.

My question now is: if asked to wait again to make further enquires is that not in a way in breech of the eea directive that states that past immigration history can't be use against an applicant (obviously that when applying for rc but in a way can still be used for irrelevant enquires such as this). I believed she can ask me this question at the desk rather than waste my time asking me to wait.
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Postby bluecole2 » Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:29 pm

By the way, HAPPY NEW-YEAR to everyone on this forum
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Postby Directive/2004/38/EC » Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:22 am

You should definitely complain.

You should also definitely do a SAR: http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/navig ... onal-data/
That will give you a copy of your file.
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Postby Plum70 » Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:45 pm

And to reiterate the advice given by Directive: request a refund from the French Embassy for the visa fees charged. I was successfully and speedily refunded in '08 for the same reason.

BTW Directive, you mention the OP opting to use TLS contact and therefore probably not getting their fee refunded. Is there any other way to apply for a French Schengen visa except via TLS?
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Postby Directive/2004/38/EC » Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:09 pm

Plum70 wrote:BTW Directive, you mention the OP opting to use TLS contact and therefore probably not getting their fee refunded. Is there any other way to apply for a French Schengen visa except via TLS?

Well, there should be an option of not using TLS.

See page 91 of http://dl.dropbox.com/u/27885818/ec/Ann ... ok2010.pdf
Schengen visa processing handbook wrote:3.2. Service fee in case of outsourcing of the collection of applications

As family members should not pay any fee when submitting the application, they cannot be
obliged to obtain an appointment via a premium call line or via an external provider whose
services are charged to the applicant. Family members must be allowed to lodge their
application directly at the consulate without any costs. However, if family members decide
not to make use of their right to lodge their application directly at the consulate but to use the
extra services, they should pay for these services.

If an appointment system is nevertheless in place, separate call lines (at ordinary local tariff)
to the consulate should be put at the disposal of family members respecting comparable
standards to those of "premium lines", i.e. the availability of such lines should be of standards
comparable to those in place for other categories of applicants and an appointment must be
allocated without delay.


If the family member was required to use TLS, then also request the fees back for that. If they "decided" to do so, but had another clearly visible option, then it is their tough luck...
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