Petition EU // visa-free-travel for EU-Family members

[Richard66]

I believe Charles is covered by the Directive. You will notice he has a residence card and not a permanent visa or what have you.

I might be saying something extremely stupid (and please correct me if so), but I believe EEA countries do not really draw this fine line between family members. At least in Italy and in Spain a non-EEA family member is a family member, whether the EEA family member is a national of the state or not. It would just be too complicated.

As I understand, his wife has a contract in the UK, but they have not yet travelled.

[fysicus]

Richard,

there are a few subtleties to be noticed. The directive applies to EEA citizens and their family members in any member state of which the EEA citizen is not a national. Member states can impose harsher laws on their own nationals (as e.g. the Netherlands do) or allow them the same privileges that the directive grants to other EEA nationals (e.g. Belgium does this and according to yourself also Spain and Italy). I do not know what position Romania takes here.
Now it all depends where Charles' wife actually lives, and that is not clear to me from his information. If she lives in the UK, Charles can only get a residence card in the UK after travelling there and joining his wife. To do so he would need an EEA FP first to enter the UK for the first time.
If she lives in Romania, it is still possible she enjoys EU treaty rights on the basis of her work in UK or for a UK company (but there may be a few tricky details here and I am not a lawyer) and Charles could indeed have a European Residence Card (issued by Romania) which should (if all countries apply the law correctly) allow visa-free travel throughout the EEA (including UK and Ireland)

[Richard66]

which should (if all countries apply the law correctly) allow visa-free travel throughout the EEA (including UK and Ireland)

We know this not to be the case, unfortunately.

Well, here we need to pass the word to Charles: do you, Charles, indeed have a Romanian residence card as a family member of an EEA citizen and is your wife still in Romania?

[86ti]

there are a few subtleties to be noticed. The directive applies to EEA citizens and their family members in any member state of which the EEA citizen is not a national.

No quite. First, there are returning EEA nationals who previously (though it is not clear to me if that means immediatly before relocating or any time in the past after the Directive came into force) exercised their treaty rights (see Surinder Singh case) and second, there are those who exercise their treaty rights through cross-border services.

[Richard66]

I would say at any time, the Directive is irrelvant, as this right existed even before the Directive came into force. The important thing is that treaty rights were at one point exercised.

This is my case, as I am exercising treaty rights in Italy.

[Richard66]

I have just sent this to the European Ombudsman. Let us see what happens.

[quote]Dear Mr Diamandouros,

I ask you please to give me your assistance before the following bodies of the European Community:

The European Parliament, Committee on Petitions
The European Commission

I shall describe briefly our problem.

I am an UK citizen exercising treaty rights in Italy. In August 2007 I married, in Italy, a Russian citizen. She subsequently applied for an Italian residence card as a family member of an EU citizen, which she obtained the same morning.

Please note that till now Italy has not yet determined the model for the “residence card referred to in Article 10â€

[ciaramc]

Charles......

I can understand your frustration and I know how you feel....I have had so many problems trying to implement mine and my Husbands rights!!!

I think that you have to app for the EEA FP.... but you do not have to submit any bank statements etc..... you simply submit copies of both passports proof of relationship eg....marriage cerificate.....I know that you should be able to travel without requiring a visa.....but that is rarely the case!

I had a friend (British)....exercising EU treaty rights in Italy then decided to move home with her non-EU spouse....she was told she would hav o apply for a spouse visa under British law....but she sent a complaint....sent the Directive informed the embassy in Rome of her right and was promptly issued with the visa EEA family permit spouse of a EU citizen! It was a bit of a battle but they gave her the visa that she was entitled too...

[Confused!]

I had a friend (British)....exercising EU treaty rights in Italy then decided to move home with her non-EU spouse....she was told she would hav o apply for a spouse visa under British law....but she sent a complaint....sent the Directive informed the embassy in Rome of her right and was promptly issued with the visa EEA family permit spouse of a EU citizen! It was a bit of a battle but they gave her the visa that she was entitled too...

I think that is probably due to Surinder Singh case, where it was ruled that a British citizen exercising his/her EU treaty rights would have the right to be treated as if he/she was a non-British EU citizen, even though the UK's "national" immigration laws are more strict.

[charles4u]

Thank you so much guys and all of you for taking my case serious.


First the anwser to the question if I hold a residence is YESSSSSSSS, I have a RESIDENCE CARD FOR FAMILY MEMBERS issued by Romania and its valid from 2008-2013 ( 5 yrs ). If I dont have this well I guess I wont have much reason to complain but having this and it still being difficult to go to UK is what gets me to aggitated and upset as I have spoke with Germany,Finland and Hungary and they all said I can go without visa, Germany said I have to go with my spouse but Hun and Fin said I can even go alone.


The second anwser to where my wife is, She is making a nursing program in the UK and also working so currently she is staying in the UK and she will be staying there for some time cus she is making her course and work on a contract base for 2 yrs.


Well I guess that anwsers the questions and maybe u guys have better idea for me, I have applied for the visa again now for the past 2 weeks and I havent gotten anwser. They said they will call me to let me know, My wife as called both the home office and the british embassy here in Romania couple of times and what they are saying is confusing.


I hope u get a good response Richard and Ciaramc I guess they wont have a choice for that cus that happens to be there citizen and they dont have a choice.

I have the RESIDENCE CARD FOR FAMILY MEMBERS FOR 5 YRS here in Romania cus we got married here and the card is even having the EU symbol inbuilt and its written in Romanian,English and French, Fysicus the EU directive says u can accompany or join within the EU and SCHENGEN member states......not compulsary to go together.


Home office says they dont know whats wrong and why they should delay it, the embassy says they are waitting for comfirmation from london cus they law as being changed and they kinda get autorisation from london now or so but 2 weeks back they said they will call me in 5 days and now its 2 weeks. I dont just know what to say or do.

[fysicus]

Thanks for the clarification Charles,

it seems to me even though the UK might not apply the European directive correctly (on the basis of your Residence Card you should be exempt from the visa requirement), you should still be allowed to enter the UK on the basis of the Immigration Rules (chapter11: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2006/20061003.htm#11)

(4) Before an immigration officer refuses admission to the United Kingdom to a person under this regulation because the person does not produce on arrival a document mentioned in paragraph (1) or (2), the immigration officer must give the person every reasonable opportunity to obtain the document or have it brought to him within a reasonable period of time or to prove by other means that he is—
(b) a family member of an EEA national with a right to accompany that national or join him in the United Kingdom

Having an EEA Family Permit will of course help, but is apparently not necessary.
Be well prepared when travelling, have your marriage certificate and your residence card with you, as well as a printout of the relevant parts of the European and UK laws (chapter 11 of the Immigration Rules and article 5 of Directive 2004/38 )

What the embassy is telling you sounds like a lot of rubbish to me. They should give you the EEA FP straightaway. Blablabla about the law being changed is (a) not true and (b) totally irrelevant

[charles4u]

I thought that too that they are just trying to delay me and or something worst.

If am to just travel without the EEA then what airline will be advisable to fly with as some airlines are stupid and dont know much about the laws.

[fysicus]

Airlines want to verify before check-in that you will not be denied entry at your destination; that is quite understandable.
So at check-in you may need to show the same documentation as I mentioned in my previous post here, and if I were you, I would check it with the airline before making a booking.
I think most major airlines are OK; I have more doubts about budget airlines

[charles4u]

Well according to most airlines and on there database..it will say visa-required and we all know that.

There is nothing stating EEA permit or so and they might not no this rules but maybe I will check cus I wanna fly with WIZZAIR as its more cheap and fly direct from Timisoara Romania were I reside to London Luton direct. Thx alot friend ...

Does anybody knows abt this airline and hope its good and no problems with them.

[Richard66]

The part about the law changing might well be true: the UK is under fire from the European Commission, from the European Court of Justince and (o what extent I do not know) from the European Parliament about their incorrect incorporation of the Directive. I believe this to be the second time (I wish I were sure) this happens and they risk being heavily fined for this.

Take a look at this, Case C-122/08 brought by the European Commission before the European Court of Justice on 19 March 2008:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 018:EN:PDF

[Ben]

This is comical..

Me: British citizen, exercising EU Treaty rights in Ireland (lived and worked here for 3 years, together with my wife).
Spouse: Singapore citizen in possession of Stamp 4EUFam Irish Residence Card, valid for 5 years.

Anyway, we were in Mallorca for 5 nights, on holiday. At Palma airport, checking in to our Ryanair flight back to Shannon, the check-in agent asked my wife if she was possession of a Schengen visa in order to travel to Ireland!

1. Singapore citizens are Commonwealth citizens and can travel visa-free to many countries worldwide, including all EU Member States.

2. Ireland is not in the Schengen area.

3. My wife is in possession of a Residence Card issued in accordance with Directive 2004/38/EC and so even if she were a visa-required national, and even if Ireland were in the Schengen area, she wouldn't require a Schengen visa.

Anyway, I replied to the check-in agent simply, "no, she doesn't require a Schengen visa". His response was simply "oh, ok then", and off we went!

[charles4u]

This is comical..

Me: British citizen, exercising EU Treaty rights in Ireland (lived and worked here for 3 years, together with my wife).
Spouse: Singapore citizen in possession of Stamp 4EUFam Irish Residence Card, valid for 5 years.

Anyway, we were in Mallorca for 5 nights, on holiday. At Palma airport, checking in to our Ryanair flight back to Shannon, the check-in agent asked my wife if she was possession of a Schengen visa in order to travel to Ireland!

1. Singapore citizens are Commonwealth citizens and can travel visa-free to many countries worldwide, including all EU Member States.

2. Ireland is not in the Schengen area.

3. My wife is in possession of a Residence Card issued in accordance with Directive 2004/38/EC and so even if she were a visa-required national, and even if Ireland were in the Schengen area, she wouldn't require a Schengen visa.

Anyway, I replied to the check-in agent simply, "no, she doesn't require a Schengen visa". His response was simply "oh, ok then", and off we went!

Well thats nice of him and probably maybe he was in a good mood cus this immigration people are the airports are crazy most times and again if it was a african or indian national, am sure he wont just allow like that.Anyway that is that..

Richard I hope we get a response soon and hope it helps cus UK is a hell of a hard country when it comes to immigration issues, but am sure with EU something should be done and should be as soon as possible and maybe thats why I have delays in my application saying there waitting for some kinda comfirmation or so from London.

Lets just see what happens..

[elmer]

Hi everyone,

i have been looking for information regarding eea fp and i'm glad i found this site. I am married to a polish woman and we want to migrate to uk as it is hard to look for a job in poland. Before applying for the eea fp, i visited uk embassy website to gather all documents needed. I too would like to file a complaint to the eu commission, cause i believe that uk has violated the eu agreement. i have my 'karta pobytu' issued by the polish government. is uk denying all non-eea family member entry to their country? I don't know where to start. i saw a petition on this post but does it apply to me too?

[Richard66]

By all means, this is the very same situation, so, join the club! The UK is indeed playing the bad guy. Ca.Funke, who wrote this petition, would like as many people as possible to send support for his petition, which details you will find above. If you want to, you may also send support to my petition and to my compalin. Those details you will also find above.

You can also send your own petition and compalint. The more of us who protest and make our voices heard, the quicker this situation will be solved.

[86ti]

By all means, this is the very same situation, so, join the club!

Is it? Again the same question as before: is this 'karta pobytu' issued under polish law or under EU law (Article 10)?

[Richard66]

Indeed.

What does it say on this residence card? Family member of an EU citizen?

[elmer]

karta probytu is issued by the polish government. i just got the reason why they denied me. they said that they believe that the marriage was fixed. i have been working legally in the US for more than 8 yrs and if i want to be in a fix marriage, i would have done so with an american. this ***holes concluded that i entered into a arranged marriage. they even questioned my wife's ability to speak and write english. remember this was done without any interview or without even speaking to my wife. my wife is really f___in upset with these people. i am sorry if i blipped out words....i am just upset and angry.... i will be reporting this to the eu commission like most of you did. more support to everyone

[86ti]

karta probytu is issued by the polish government.

Of course it was since you reside in Poland now. The question was under which law? But I assume that it was issued according to Polish national law, i.e. the Directive does not apply with respect to your current residence card. Your problem therefore appears to be with the UK only.

i just got the reason why they denied me. they said that they believe that the marriage was fixed. i have been working legally in the US for more than 8 yrs and if i want to be in a fix marriage, i would have done so with an american. this ***holes concluded that i entered into a arranged marriage. they even questioned my wife's ability to speak and write english. remember this was done without any interview or without even speaking to my wife.

Language is not a requirement to be able to exercise ones treaty rights. This argument appears to be totally bogus to me.

The more serious question is the alleged marriage of convenience. How long have you been married? DId you supply any proof of your relationship before marriage with the application?

[elmer]

we got married last may but our relationship started in 2006 when she was in the US. they are now asking for proof that we have enough money (bank accts). i am now collecting all emails, pictures and etc. however, i doubt that i would be providing them with our bank statements. they questioned where i will reside in uk and i told them to my brother who is british national that owns his house. i guess looking for a job in poland is a better choice and wait for my citizenship.

[86ti]

we got married last may but our relationship started in 2006 when she was in the US. they are now asking for proof that we have enough money (bank accts). i am now collecting all emails, pictures and etc. however, i doubt that i would be providing them with our bank statements. they questioned where i will reside in uk and i told them to my brother who is british national that owns his house. i guess looking for a job in poland is a better choice and wait for my citizenship.

Your rights are summarised in the ECIS. Read in particular Chapter 1 (Article 1.2.1 and 2.2) but also Chapter 7 to find out whether there are special rules for the new member states concerning freedom of movement. I think your legal residence in the EEA member state Poland should indeed be benefical to you.

In principle, a EEA national can reside in another member state up to three months with the only requirement of having a valid passport (Article 6 of the Directive). The non EEA family members have the same rights.

[charles4u]

Well his residence card most clearly state RESIDENCE CARD FOR FAMILY MEMBERS and its mostly 5 yrs so I wouldnt know why some countries are giving it different names e.g EU4fam and so on, The one I have only states RESIDENCE CARD FOR FAMILY MEMBERS and its all translated in Romania,English and French. Not Kabisky or whatever Poland calls theirs.

Anyway If it doesnt have this name R.C.F.M then there might be problem at port of entry cus its even said at most embassies the type of card that allow free-movement which is the family card, For ur marraige thing, I gues its not new Cus they asked me same thing and I had to go get the print out of our phone calls we made before meeting in Romania and also some prove of ups receipt of the package we sent to each other and she still said she doesnt believe it yet but I should wait till she gets the comfirmation from London and I have waited now for almost 4 weeks by coming monday and she said she will get back intouch with me in 5days.


U can make a complain but am sure so so so many people will be dead before we get a response or so. Same story everyday with UK EEA.