Travel to Schengen, without visa, for EEA-family members

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EEA Travel Headache!

Postby John G » Wed May 30, 2012 4:05 pm

Hi All,

I have read this thread with interest. I need advice/help!!??

I'll explain our situation briefly. I am a dual Italian/Australian passport holder, my partner is a Colombian national and our daughter (7 months old) is a dual English/Australian passport holder.

My partner has a the "Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National" valid until 18 July 2016. We have lived in London, UK since 2005.

We want to travel to France for the Tour De France and then later in August, to Spain/Italy to visit family.

I have e-mailed the Italians/French and Spanish consulate to make sure it's all OK and I am having issues with the "proof of relationship". Because we are NOT married and in a de-facto relationship the Italians insist she has to get a Visa. (which I think is basically discrimination!) I am waiting for a reply from the French and Spanish.

Any ideas/suggestions?

Copy/paste below of correspondence thus far with the French:

From: Me Date: 2012-05-29 09:22:11
To whom it may concern,

I hope this e-mail finds you well.

I had a question regarding the EEA visa rights for my partner.

My partner is a Colombian national and she has the "Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National" valid until 18 July 2016. We have lived in London, UK since 2005 and now have a beautiful 7 month old daughter.

From what I understand, my partner has the right, with the "Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National", to enter and leave all countries that form part of the EEA (which obviously France does) without the need of a 'Schengen visa' as long as she is travelling with me.

In July 2012, we have the intention of going to France to watch the Tour De France. In order for us to organise our trip without any worries, can you please confirm that my partner will not require the 'Schengen visa' to travel to France and that she has the right to enter/leave France with her "Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National" so long as she is travelling with me?

As additional information, I can confirm that I have an Italian passport and our daughter has an English passport. Also, we are NOT married and are a de-facto couple (I am not sure if this matters? I tell you this because the Italian Consulate in London has insisted that Italian authorities may ask for a marriage certificate and negate our entry/exit!). Please also confirm the fact that we are NOT married does not restrict our EU rights under EU DIRECTIVE 2004/58/EC?

I would appreciate a prompt reply at your earliest convenience so we can finalise our itinerary for this trip.

Best Regards

John


From: TLScontact Date: 2012-05-30 16:16:33
Dear Applicant,


If your British residency card states "Family Member of an EEA national", this family member is not a French or UK citizen, you have official documentation to prove this relationship and you are either travelling together with this person or going to meet them in France, you do not require a visa to travel. However, if you fail to meet any of these criteria, you do require a visa to travel. Please note the the exact words "Family Member of an EEA national" must be written on your residency card and that the quality of simply "being" a family member of an EEA national does not remove the passport holder's requirement to obtain a visa for travel.


Kind regards,

TLScontact Team

From: Me Date: 2012-05-30 16:29:49
Hi,

OK, we meet all that criteria.

But what do you define as "official documentation to prove this relationship"?

We have already proven to the UK Authorities that we are in a genuine relationship etc etc otherwise they would not have issued the "Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National" valid until 18 July 2016 to my partner!

Please clarify, what official documentation to prove this relationship would be sufficient?... especially considering we are NOT married and thus don't have a marriage certificate.

Would Utility Bills/Joint Bank statements etc be sufficient?

Thanks in advance

John
John G
Newbie
 
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:57 am

In addition to my previous post

Postby John G » Wed May 30, 2012 4:32 pm

Check out what the Italians say, please read from the bottom up!

:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

idiotasssssssssss :!: :!: :!: :!:

Ufficio Visti <visti.londra@esteri.it> 29 May 2012 12:21
To: John

Dear Sir / Madam,

for all information and booking please visit our internet sites at :
www.conslondra.esteri.it and www.esteri.it.

Yours faithfully,
paola manti
Visa Section.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Sir,

as clearly stated in our website (since you do not have a wedding certificate), your partner should ask a
visa to go to Italy.

Regards,
paola manti
visa office
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Da: John
Inviato: martedì 29 maggio 2012 11.33
A: Consolato d'Italia nel Regno Unito Londra Visti
Oggetto: Re: EEA rights under "Residence Card of a Family Member of a EEA national"

Paola,

I am not asking about the EU EEA visa rights. You have been very clear in that the Italian border authorities
may ask for a marriage certificate at the border control and thus it's probably best we apply for the visa.
I am asking about point 4 below in application for the FREE visa. Which states:

4) marriage certificate in original and photocopy (if the marriage certificate was not issued in the UK,
it must be translated in English and the original document must be legalized by the Consulate/High
Commission of the issuing country);30/05/2012 Gmail - EEA rights under "Residence Card of a Family Member of a EEA national"

So I ask AGAIN, since we DO NOT have a marriage certificate, what alternative documents are required
to fulfil point 4?

Thanks in advance
John
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 29 May 2012 11:23, Ufficio Visti <visti.londra@esteri.it> wrote:

Dear Sir,

we have just answered you.

As said, your partner can be asked to present the wedding certificate while she presents her passport
with the EEA family member UK visa.

We do not escalate e-mail: i'm the responible of the Visa Office

Regards,
paola manti
visa office
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Da: John
Inviato: martedì 29 maggio 2012 8.45
A: Consolato d'Italia nel Regno Unito Londra Visti
Oggetto: Re: EEA rights under "Residence Card of a Family Member of a EEA national"

Hi Paola,

Can you please answer my question below?
Thanks
John
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 28 May 2012 16:53, John wrote:
Paola,

You have not answered my question.

So what do you suggest we bring for point 4 below?!?

Please answer my question or alternatively, please escalate my e-mail to your line manager.

Best
John
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 28 May 2012 16:47, Ufficio Visti <visti.londra@esteri.it> wrote:
Dear Sir,

as said:
we recognize only the marriage certificate.

Regards,
paola manti
visa office
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Da: John
Inviato: lunedì 28 maggio 2012 15.48
A: Consolato d'Italia nel Regno Unito Londra Visti
Oggetto: Re: EEA rights under "Residence Card of a Family Member of a EEA national"
Paola,30/05/2012 Gmail - EEA rights under "Residence Card of a Family Member of a EEA national"

So what do you suggest we bring for point 4 below?!?

Surely it's illegal to discriminate against us simple because we are not married and in a De facto
relationship!?? I feel like we are a being treated like pariah! De facto relationships are very common
in this day and age, not everyone is married. How do you deal with same sex couple then?

In addition, in order for my partner to receive the visa "Residence Card of a Family Member of an
EEA National" from UK authorities we have already proven our relationship status etc to the UK
Authorities.

Is the checks of the UK Authorities not sufficient under Italian Law?

We are also travelling to Spain and they have confirmed that we don't require a Visa and they are
complying to the same EU DIRECTIVE 2004/58/EC!!

Thanks
John
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 28 May 2012 15:30, Ufficio Visti <visti.londra@esteri.it> wrote:
Dear Sir,
we recognize only the marriage certificate.
Regards,
paola manti
visa office
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Da: John
Inviato: lunedì 28 maggio 2012 15.20
A: Consolato d'Italia nel Regno Unito Londra Visti
Oggetto: Re: EEA rights under "Residence Card of a Family Member of a EEA national"
Hi Paola,
According to your website:
http://www.conslondra.esteri.it/Consola ... in_italia/
"Bringing a copy of marriage certificate or proof of relationship is advisable."
Considering we don't have a marriage certificate, what other proof of relationship is
admissible?
Thanks
John
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 28 May 2012 15:04, Ufficio Visti <visti.londra@esteri.it> wrote:
Dear Sir,

please note that we do not have a official EU lawyer.
A previously said:
as according to the EU Directive 2004/38/CE, family members of EU citizens who are not
citizen of a Member State, but that hold on their passport the new residence permits issued
by the British Home Office bearing the specific following indication:30/05/2012 Gmail - EEA rights under "Residence Card of a Family Member of a EEA national"

RESIDENCE DOCUMENTATION
Type of Document : Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National
will not need a Schengen visa for a short stay when visiting Italy ONLY together with
EU spouse. If you intend to visit any other Schengen Country you must enquire with that
Country’s Consulate first on whether they willrequest you to have a visa before you travel.
Please note: any other wording on your resident permit will indicate you need to
request a visa.
You should thus apply for a complimentary visa presenting the following supporting
documents:
1) application form (available on our website: www.conslondra.esteri.it
<http://www.conslondra.esteri.it> );
2) applicant's passport;
3) spouse EU original Passport and photocopy:
4) marriage certificate in original and photocopy (if the marriage certificate was not issued
in the UK, it must be translated in English and the original document must be legalized by the
Consulate/High Commission of the issuing country);
5) travel insurance;
6) one passport size photo;
7) flight ticket
The visa is free of charge only if applicant travels with EU spouse.
To apply for a visa you must also book an appointment through our ON-LINE
BOOKING SYSTEM (free service) available 24 hours at: https://web.esteri.it/
prenotaOnline/login.aspx?cidsede=100041&returnUrl=/prenotaOnline/ (visit our web pages
for: visa forms, documents, requirements, types of visas etc. : www.conslondra.esteri.it
and www.esteri.it ). We set a specific slot only for spouses/children of European Union
citizens

Italian citizens’ spouses do not require an appointment so long that the family is registered at the AIRE
office of the Consulate General of Italy in London and that the marriage has been registered there too.

We need at least 2 working days to process your visa (for some countries we need up to
10 days). So, please, apply for your visa no later than 6 weeks prior to your
departure date.
The Visa Section is open to the public by appointment ONLYMonday to Friday , 9:00am
to 12:00 noon.

Our address is:Consulate General of Italy - Visa Section, 136 Buckingham Palace Road,
London SW1W 9SA.

Yours faithfully,
Paola Manti
Visa Section
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Da: John
Inviato: lunedì 28 maggio 2012 13.52
A: Consolato d'Italia nel Regno Unito Londra Visti
Oggetto: Re: EEA rights under "Residence Card of a Family Member of a EEA national"

Hi Paola,

I don't question that you are trying to provide me with the correct information and I genuinely
appreciate your prompt replies!

As you can imagine, we prefer to travel to Italy without having to apply for a Visa. Based on what
I have read, I believe that I have grounds to dispute this view/interpretation of DIRECTIVE
2004/58/EC.

Can you please confirm the situation with your official EU lawyer? and/or inform me of the official
procedure to dispute this interpretation by yourselves of DIRECTIVE 2004/58/EC?

Many thanks in advance
John
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 28 May 2012 13:41, Ufficio Visti <visti.londra@esteri.it> wrote:
Dear Sir,
please note that we usully try to give right information.
At the airport you can be asked to show the wedding certificate.
Regards,
paola manti
visa office
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Da: John
Inviato: lunedì 28 maggio 2012 13.30
A: Consolato d'Italia nel Regno Unito Londra Visti
Oggetto: Re: EEA rights under "Residence Card of a Family Member of a EEA national"

Hi Paola,

Are you sure this is correct?

I have read substantial information on this particular EU Law and I am certain you can't make
this distinction based on whether we are legally married. We have lived together as a couple
for over 3 years and have a 7 month old daughter together. In addition, my partner has the
required RESIDENCE DOCUMENTATION which states "Residence Card of a Family Member
of an EEA National".

Please read the following guidance on applying this EU Law:
http://register.consilium.europa.eu/pdf ... 0.en06.pdf

Can you please double check/confirm what the situation is with your EU legal representative
and confirm either way?

Thank you in advance
John
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 28 May 2012 13:17, Ufficio Visti <visti.londra@esteri.it> wrote:30/05/2012 Gmail - EEA rights under "Residence Card of a Family Member of a EEA national"
Dear Sir,

if you are not married, she should apply for a visa.

Regards,
paola manti
visa office

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Da: John
Inviato: lunedì 28 maggio 2012 13.09
A: Consolato d'Italia nel Regno Unito Londra Visti
Oggetto: Re: EEA rights under "Residence Card of a Family Member of a EEA national"

Hi Paola,

Thank you for the prompt reply and confirmation.

My partners passport and visa does fulfil the below criteria.

One more quick question, can you also confirm that we will not have any issues/questions
regarding the fact we are not currently married?

You specify "EU Spouse" below, but technically she is not my spouse but instead my defacto partner. Is this an issue/problem?

I look forward to your prompt reply.

Best Regards
John
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 28 May 2012 12:57, Ufficio Visti <visti.londra@esteri.it> wrote:
Dear Sir/Madam,

according to the EU Directive 2004/38/CE, family members of EU citizens who are not citizen of a
Member State, but that hold on their passport the new residence permits issued by the British
Home Office bearing the specific following indication:

RESIDENCE DOCUMENTATION
Type of Document : Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National
will not need a Schengen visa for a short stay when visiting Italy ONLYtogether with EU
spouse.

If you intend to visit any other Schengen Country you must enquire with that Country’s
Consulate first on whether they will request you to have a visa before you travel.

Please note: any other wording on your resident permit will indicate you needto request a visa.

Yours faithfully,
Paola Manti
Visa Section
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Da: John
Inviato: domenica 27 maggio 2012 21.49
A: Consolato d'Italia nel Regno Unito Londra Visti
Oggetto: EEA rights under "Residence Card of a Family Member of a EEA national"30/05/2012 Gmail - EEA rights under "Residence Card of a Family Member of a EEA national"

To whom it may concern,

I hope this e-mail finds you well.

I had a question regarding the EEA visa rights for my partner.
My partner is a Colombian national and she has the "Residence Card of a Family
Member of an EEA National" valid until 18 July 2016. We have lived in London, UK since
2005 and now have a beautiful 7 month old daughter.

From what I understand, my partner has the right, with the "Residence Card of a Family
Member of an EEA National", to enter and leave all countries that form part of the EEA
(which obviously Italy does) without the need of a 'Schengen visa' as long as she is
travelling with me. Please find attached a document I found on the Internet which confirms
this as European law.

Towards the end of August 2012, we have the intention of visiting family we have in
Veneto, Italy. In order for us to organise our trip without any worries, can you please
confirm that my partner will not require the 'Schengen visa' to travel to Italy and that she
has the right to enter/leave Italy with her "Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA
National" so long as she is travelling with me?

As additional information, I can confirm that I have an Italian passport and our daughter
has an English passport.

I would appreciate a prompt reply at your earliest convenience so we can finalise our
itinerary for this trip.

Best Regards
John
John G
Newbie
 
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:57 am

Postby EUsmileWEallsmile » Wed May 30, 2012 9:19 pm

Beautiful correspondence! In fairness to the embassy staff, they warned that the problem may be a zealous border guard.

Now here's the thing. The article 10 residence card excepts your family member from the visa requirement is traveling with the EU family member. You will most likely be able to board the plane.

On arrival, you should not be asked for your marriage certificate. As you are Italian you should easily be able to argue your case!

Take a copy of the Schengen guard's handbook if you have any doubt.
EUsmileWEallsmile
Moderator
 
Posts: 6019
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:22 pm

Durable Partner (in Italian)

Postby EUsmileWEallsmile » Wed May 30, 2012 9:25 pm

The Italians transpose article 3.2 (b) as follows

b) il partner con cui il cittadino
dell'Unione abbia una relazione
stabile debitamente attestata dallo
Stato del cittadino dell'Unione.


http://ec.europa.eu/justice/doc_centre/ ... nce_en.pdf
EUsmileWEallsmile
Moderator
 
Posts: 6019
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:22 pm

Article 5.2 (in Italian)

Postby EUsmileWEallsmile » Wed May 30, 2012 9:27 pm

And article 5.2 thus

2. I familiari non aventi la
cittadinanza di uno Stato membro
sono assoggettati all'obbligo del
visto d'ingresso, nei casi in cui e'
richiesto. Il possesso della carta di
soggiorno di cui all'articolo 10 in
corso di validità esonera
dall'obbligo di munirsi del visto.


No mention of marriage certificate!
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Moderator
 
Posts: 6019
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:22 pm

Postby EUsmileWEallsmile » Wed May 30, 2012 9:31 pm

EUsmileWEallsmile
Moderator
 
Posts: 6019
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:22 pm

Postby John G » Thu May 31, 2012 7:48 am

EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:Beautiful correspondence! In fairness to the embassy staff, they warned that the problem may be a zealous border guard.

Now here's the thing. The article 10 residence card excepts your family member from the visa requirement is traveling with the EU family member. You will most likely be able to board the plane.

On arrival, you should not be asked for your marriage certificate. As you are Italian you should easily be able to argue your case!

Take a copy of the Schengen guard's handbook if you have any doubt.


Guru,

Thanks for links etc

Do you have a link for the "Schengen guard's handbook"?

Thanks again :D

John
John G
Newbie
 
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:57 am

Re: EEA Travel Headache!

Postby John G » Thu May 31, 2012 1:03 pm

John G wrote:Hi All,

I have read this thread with interest. I need advice/help!!??

I'll explain our situation briefly. I am a dual Italian/Australian passport holder, my partner is a Colombian national and our daughter (7 months old) is a dual English/Australian passport holder.

My partner has a the "Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National" valid until 18 July 2016. We have lived in London, UK since 2005.

We want to travel to France for the Tour De France and then later in August, to Spain/Italy to visit family.

I have e-mailed the Italians/French and Spanish consulate to make sure it's all OK and I am having issues with the "proof of relationship". Because we are NOT married and in a de-facto relationship the Italians insist she has to get a Visa. (which I think is basically discrimination!) I am waiting for a reply from the French and Spanish.

Any ideas/suggestions?

Copy/paste below of correspondence thus far with the French:

From: Me Date: 2012-05-29 09:22:11
To whom it may concern,

I hope this e-mail finds you well.

I had a question regarding the EEA visa rights for my partner.

My partner is a Colombian national and she has the "Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National" valid until 18 July 2016. We have lived in London, UK since 2005 and now have a beautiful 7 month old daughter.

From what I understand, my partner has the right, with the "Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National", to enter and leave all countries that form part of the EEA (which obviously France does) without the need of a 'Schengen visa' as long as she is travelling with me.

In July 2012, we have the intention of going to France to watch the Tour De France. In order for us to organise our trip without any worries, can you please confirm that my partner will not require the 'Schengen visa' to travel to France and that she has the right to enter/leave France with her "Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National" so long as she is travelling with me?

As additional information, I can confirm that I have an Italian passport and our daughter has an English passport. Also, we are NOT married and are a de-facto couple (I am not sure if this matters? I tell you this because the Italian Consulate in London has insisted that Italian authorities may ask for a marriage certificate and negate our entry/exit!). Please also confirm the fact that we are NOT married does not restrict our EU rights under EU DIRECTIVE 2004/58/EC?

I would appreciate a prompt reply at your earliest convenience so we can finalise our itinerary for this trip.

Best Regards

John


From: TLScontact Date: 2012-05-30 16:16:33
Dear Applicant,


If your British residency card states "Family Member of an EEA national", this family member is not a French or UK citizen, you have official documentation to prove this relationship and you are either travelling together with this person or going to meet them in France, you do not require a visa to travel. However, if you fail to meet any of these criteria, you do require a visa to travel. Please note the the exact words "Family Member of an EEA national" must be written on your residency card and that the quality of simply "being" a family member of an EEA national does not remove the passport holder's requirement to obtain a visa for travel.


Kind regards,

TLScontact Team

From: Me Date: 2012-05-30 16:29:49
Hi,

OK, we meet all that criteria.

But what do you define as "official documentation to prove this relationship"?

We have already proven to the UK Authorities that we are in a genuine relationship etc etc otherwise they would not have issued the "Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National" valid until 18 July 2016 to my partner!

Please clarify, what official documentation to prove this relationship would be sufficient?... especially considering we are NOT married and thus don't have a marriage certificate.

Would Utility Bills/Joint Bank statements etc be sufficient?

Thanks in advance

John


Now the French are saying the same as the Italians!!

copy/paste below:

From: Tlscontact <noreply@tlscontact.com>
Date: 31 May 2012 13:44
Subject: Re: [LON message] 1553777, Other
To: John


Dear Applicant

Please be advised if you are not married couple so you can not apply as a Spouse of EU.

The only document you can provide as proof of relationship is your marriage certificate.

This is the Instruction Directly from the Consulate.

Kind Regards

Tlscontact Team
John G
Newbie
 
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:57 am

Postby John G » Thu May 31, 2012 1:45 pm

EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:The border manual

http://register.consilium.europa.eu/pdf ... 0.it06.pdf


Mate, do you have this doc in French?

Now the French are saying the same thing as the Italians!

I think it's absolutely ridiculous! It's paramount to discrimination because we are not married.... We are thinking of testing this by doing a trip to Calais via Ferry and testing the border guards at both ends.

Will update if we do this and outcome.

Thanks

John
John G
Newbie
 
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:57 am

Re: EEA Travel Headache!

Postby John G » Thu May 31, 2012 1:51 pm

John G wrote:
John G wrote:Hi All,

I have read this thread with interest. I need advice/help!!??

I'll explain our situation briefly. I am a dual Italian/Australian passport holder, my partner is a Colombian national and our daughter (7 months old) is a dual English/Australian passport holder.

My partner has a the "Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National" valid until 18 July 2016. We have lived in London, UK since 2005.

We want to travel to France for the Tour De France and then later in August, to Spain/Italy to visit family.

I have e-mailed the Italians/French and Spanish consulate to make sure it's all OK and I am having issues with the "proof of relationship". Because we are NOT married and in a de-facto relationship the Italians insist she has to get a Visa. (which I think is basically discrimination!) I am waiting for a reply from the French and Spanish.

Any ideas/suggestions?

Copy/paste below of correspondence thus far with the French:

From: Me Date: 2012-05-29 09:22:11
To whom it may concern,

I hope this e-mail finds you well.

I had a question regarding the EEA visa rights for my partner.

My partner is a Colombian national and she has the "Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National" valid until 18 July 2016. We have lived in London, UK since 2005 and now have a beautiful 7 month old daughter.

From what I understand, my partner has the right, with the "Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National", to enter and leave all countries that form part of the EEA (which obviously France does) without the need of a 'Schengen visa' as long as she is travelling with me.

In July 2012, we have the intention of going to France to watch the Tour De France. In order for us to organise our trip without any worries, can you please confirm that my partner will not require the 'Schengen visa' to travel to France and that she has the right to enter/leave France with her "Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National" so long as she is travelling with me?

As additional information, I can confirm that I have an Italian passport and our daughter has an English passport. Also, we are NOT married and are a de-facto couple (I am not sure if this matters? I tell you this because the Italian Consulate in London has insisted that Italian authorities may ask for a marriage certificate and negate our entry/exit!). Please also confirm the fact that we are NOT married does not restrict our EU rights under EU DIRECTIVE 2004/58/EC?

I would appreciate a prompt reply at your earliest convenience so we can finalise our itinerary for this trip.

Best Regards

John


From: TLScontact Date: 2012-05-30 16:16:33
Dear Applicant,


If your British residency card states "Family Member of an EEA national", this family member is not a French or UK citizen, you have official documentation to prove this relationship and you are either travelling together with this person or going to meet them in France, you do not require a visa to travel. However, if you fail to meet any of these criteria, you do require a visa to travel. Please note the the exact words "Family Member of an EEA national" must be written on your residency card and that the quality of simply "being" a family member of an EEA national does not remove the passport holder's requirement to obtain a visa for travel.


Kind regards,

TLScontact Team

From: Me Date: 2012-05-30 16:29:49
Hi,

OK, we meet all that criteria.

But what do you define as "official documentation to prove this relationship"?

We have already proven to the UK Authorities that we are in a genuine relationship etc etc otherwise they would not have issued the "Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National" valid until 18 July 2016 to my partner!

Please clarify, what official documentation to prove this relationship would be sufficient?... especially considering we are NOT married and thus don't have a marriage certificate.

Would Utility Bills/Joint Bank statements etc be sufficient?

Thanks in advance

John


Now the French are saying the same as the Italians!!

copy/paste below:

From: Tlscontact <noreply@tlscontact.com>
Date: 31 May 2012 13:44
Subject: Re: [LON message] 1553777, Other
To: John


Dear Applicant

Please be advised if you are not married couple so you can not apply as a Spouse of EU.

The only document you can provide as proof of relationship is your marriage certificate.

This is the Instruction Directly from the Consulate.

Kind Regards

Tlscontact Team


Can anyone help me draft a cracking reply to above e-mail with relevant links etc to educate the consulate officials!?
John G
Newbie
 
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:57 am

More Italian hot air....

Postby John G » Thu May 31, 2012 2:06 pm

Anyone have an idea of a cracking reply to this? :?: :!: :?: :!: :?: :!: :?: :!:

Copy/paste below:

Fwd: EEA rights under "Residence Card of a Family Member of a EEA
national"

Ufficio Visti <visti.londra@esteri.it> 31 May 2012 14:55

To: john

Dear Sir,

i'm sorry you think that i haven't been helpful.

As said many times, if you are not married, your partner should apply for a visa.

Rewgards,

paola manti

visa office

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Da: Consolato d'Italia nel Regno Unito Londra [mailto:consolato.londra@esteri.it] Per conto di Segreteria_1
Inviato: giovedì 31 maggio 2012 14.19

A: Consolato d'Italia nel Regno Unito Londra Visti
Oggetto: I: Fwd: EEA rights under "Residence Card of a Family Member of a EEA national"

Da: Ambasciata d'Italia nel Regno Unito Londra [mailto:ambasciata.londra@esteri.it]

Inviato: giovedì 31 maggio 2012 13.59

A: Consolato d'Italia nel Regno Unito Londra; Consolato d'Italia nel Regno Unito Londra Segreteria

Cc: Silvi Marco

Oggetto: FW: Fwd: EEA rights under "Residence Card of a Family Member of a EEA national"

From: John
Sent: 28 May 2012 17:06
To: Ambasciata d'Italia nel Regno Unito Londra
Subject: [!! SPAM] Fwd: EEA rights under "Residence Card of a Family Member of a EEA national"

To whom it may concern,

Please read the e-mail thread below from the bottom.

I have been in e-mail correspondence with Paola Manti all day today and in the last few e-mails she has not
been very helpful!

Can you please forward on this e-mail to your legal head within the Italian Embassy.

Me, my partner (we are NOT married and currently in a de facto relationship of over 3 years) and our daughter
of 7 months wants to travel to Italy in August 2012 and I want written confirmation that my partner (a
Colombian national) can travel with me without needing a Schengen Visa by virtue of having the following
Visa:

RESIDENCE DOCUMENTATION
Type of Document : Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National

As you can see, Paola insists that we need a visa and will only accept a marriage certificate! Which we obviously don't have!

Can you please confirm the official/legal stance of Italian Law with respect to EU DIRECTIVE 2004/58/EC?

I have undertaken extensive research on this topic and believe we have full EU rights to free movement within
EEA countries, so long as she travels with me. The following link provides guidance on applying this EU Law:

http://register.consilium.europa.eu/pdf ... 0.en06.pdf

I look forward to your prompt reply.

Best

John
Last edited by John G on Thu May 31, 2012 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
John G
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What the Spanish say!

Postby John G » Thu May 31, 2012 2:30 pm

Interesting, seems no problems in Spain then?

:P :P :P :P :P :P Hurrah!

Copy/paste below translated into English:

RE: RV: EEA Derechos con "Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National"

Fernandez-Mazarambroz,Pilar <pilar.fmazarambroz@maec.es> 31 May 2012 15:13

To: John

Dear Mr. Gargan,

We have no extra information. In Spain he recognized equal rights to married couples possessing a book of family and domestic partners possessing a certificate of domestic partnership in any country where there is a single record for carrying out this record.

Sincerely,

Department of visas

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John

Posted on: Thursday, May 31, 2012 11:57

To:. London Conn.

CC: Pacios Cobo, Carmen; Fernandez-Mazarambroz, Pilar
Subject: Re: RV: EEA Rights to "Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National"

Hello Carmen / Pilar,

I hope you are well.

Have some extra information about my question below?

Thank you very much

Johnny

-------------------------------------------------------

2012/5/29 John Gargan < johnsgargan@gmail.com >

Thank you very much

----------------------------------------------------

2012/5/29. London Con < cog.londres @ maec.es >

Dear Sir;

Your mail is forwarded to the Department of Visas that anterán to your inquiry as soon as possible.

With warm regards,

Consulate General of Spain in London
20 Draycott Place
London SW3 2RZ
www.conspalon.org

----------------------------------------------------------------

From: John

Posted on: Monday, May 28, 2012 13:57

To:. London Conn.

Subject: Re: EEA Rights to "Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National"

Hello,

Thank you very much for the reply.

One more question, I wanted to confirm that there would be no problem because we are not married.

We are in a "de facto" relationship for over three years and we have a 7 month old daughter.

Could you confirm that there is no problem entering / leaving Spain considering that we are not married?

Thank you very much,

Johnny

------------------------------------------------------------------

On 28 May 2012 13:45. London Con < cog.londres @ maec.es > wrote:

Dear Sir

This Consulate General is pleased to answer your e-mail with information that can be found below and also consulting on the website www.conspalon.org of this Consulate General.

Receive a cordial greeting,

Consulate General of Spain in London
20 Draycott Place
London SW3 2RZ
www.conspalon.org

Dependant OF EU / EEA / SPANISH NATIONAL

IMPORTANT NOTICE: Under Directive 2004/38/EC and according to "Royal Decree 240/2007, 16 February," Family members of an
EU / EEA National in possession of a valid UK Residence Card are not required visa to enter of a Spain When Travelling with the
EU / EEA National or joining him / her in Spain . Otherwise, a visa will still be required ("Royal Decree 1161/2009, 10th July 2009 "
.)

For spouses and / or children of Spanish Nationals Providing the Above condition Applies That the marriage and / or birth is
registered according With The Spanish Civil Register (original "Family Book").

PLEASE NOTE THAT the UK Residence Permit literally That Must state the
holder is a family member of an EU / EEA National, if not, a visa is required
under the Following conditions:

Passport or travel document valid for at least 3 months beyond the Intended departure from Spain and at least two with full
blank visa pages to affix the.

One completed and signed visa application form.31/05/2012

One recent color passport photograph.
Original and photocopy of passport or EU National ID card of the Spanish EU National or National.
UK residence permit.
Original and copy of "Family Book" for Dependants of Spanish Nationals.
Original and copy of the marriage certificate translated Into Spanish or English.

Dependant children must have for the original and copy of Birth certificate translated Into Spanish or English.

Dependant ascendants (parents) Must present the Original birth certificate for the son / daughter proving the family link to the EEA / EU national and copy translated Into Spanish or English.

Original and copy of proof of residence (recent bank statements Such As Household bills or With The name of Both parties).

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John

Posted on: Sunday, May 27, 2012 21:32

To:. London Conn.
Subject: EEA Rights to "Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National"

Hello,

I hope this emailfinds you well.

I had a question regarding the EEA visa for my partner.

My partner is Colombian and she has the "Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National" which is valid untilJuly 18, 2016. We live in London, England since 2005 (ie over 6 years) and now
we are proud to have a daughter (Luciana) of 7 months.

For what I have understood, she is entitled to enter all the countries that are part of the EEA (Which obviously includes Spain) WITHOUT the need to remove the 'Schengen visa' as we travel together. I
am attaching a document I found on the Internet that confirms this as European law.

In late August 2012 we intend to travel to visit family in Malaga, Spain. For this reason, to be calm, could confirm that my partner would not have to get the 'Schengen visa' to travel to Spain and has the right to enter and leave Spain with the "Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National"
mientres be traveling with me?

Additionally I would like to confirm that I have Italian passport and our daughter is English passport.

I appreciate a quick response so we can buy cheap and get organized.

Thank you very much,

John Gargan
John G
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Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:57 am

Re: What the Spanish say!

Postby ca.funke » Thu May 31, 2012 4:16 pm

Hi John G,

embassy staff, especially from certain regions, sometimes do not know the rules well.

I once tested the knowledge of all Schengen embassies by asking the same question, and publishing their replies:
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=30020

I came to the conclusion that it´s not importannt what the Embassy tells you, as long as the borderguards know what they are doing, since those guys will in practice determine if you enter somewhere or not...

...and, unfortunately, there´s no direct connection between Embassy staff and border guards. So a country giving crappy info via their Embassies (Italy) could well admit you at the airport.

Shining exception of all is tiny Malta, whose Embassy provided me with a letter stating explicitly that I may enter without a visa :!:

Rgds and good luck,
Christian
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Posts: 1413
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Location: Zürich, CH (Schengen)

Re: What the Spanish say!

Postby John G » Thu May 31, 2012 4:25 pm

ca.funke wrote:Hi John G,

embassy staff, especially from certain regions, sometimes do not know the rules well.

I once tested the knowledge of all Schengen embassies by asking the same question, and publishing their replies:
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=30020

I came to the conclusion that it´s not importannt what the Embassy tells you, as long as the borderguards know what they are doing, since those guys will in practice determine if you enter somewhere or not...

...and, unfortunately, there´s no direct connection between Embassy staff and border guards. So a country giving crappy info via their Embassies (Italy) could well admit you at the airport.

Shining exception of all is tiny Malta, whose Embassy provided me with a letter stating explicitly that I may enter without a visa :!:

Rgds and good luck,
Christian


Hi Christian,

Thanks for the reply and info.

I get what you say and suppose we just have to run the risk I guess?

Thanks again and I'll update with any stories etc,

John
John G
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Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:57 am

Postby EUsmileWEallsmile » Thu May 31, 2012 7:48 pm

Read through this thread. There are people getting on board planes and entering with an article 10 residence card.

You can be one of them!

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=98029
EUsmileWEallsmile
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Posts: 6019
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:22 pm

SUCCESS!!!!!

Postby John G » Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:33 pm

EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:Read through this thread. There are people getting on board planes and entering with an article 10 residence card.

You can be one of them:!:

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=98029


FYI below:!: Only took like over 20 e-mails for them to confirm what is EU Law:!:

Muppet's:!:

Now I will print and keep that e-mail up my sleeve if the border guards are up for a battle:!: :!: :!: :D

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Ufficio Visti <visti.londra@esteri.it>
Date: 6 June 2012 15:21
Subject: R: I: Fwd: EEA rights under "Residence Card of a Family Member of a EEA national"
To: john gargan


Dear Mr. Gargan,

I would like to confirm you that according to the italian Law "Decreto Legislativo 6 febbraio 2007, n. 30" (that implemented the European Union Directive 2004/38/CE), and according to artt. 2, 5 and 10, you do not need to have a visa to travel to Italy together with the EU family member as long as you hold the type of UK Residence card that enables you to enter Italy and other Schengen countries without visa.

Hope this satisfy your request

Regards

Antonio Caramadre
Deputy Head of Visa Section
John G
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Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:57 am

Postby diana_karina » Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:45 pm

Hi, very good discussion is happening here! I wonder if you have any thoughts on my situation?
I am a holder of Estonian Alien's passport (not EU). Live in uk since 2005 with my Estonian (EU family member) mother, she has permanent residence blue booklet. I had residence card for 5 years, it is now expired.
I have decided to travel to Estonia on the 4th May 2012. So checked with UKBA if i need a visa/ extension of residence. But was pointed to this: http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/eucit ... ts-family/
which said 'You do not need to obtain documents confirming your right of residence in the UK if you are a family member of an EEA national.' And the lady added:'Take your mum's residence document just in case, and you will be fine!'

Just to be prepared I took with me: my mum's residence booklet, print out of the page from the website and my birth certificate, my student & staff cards and few more documents.

However on the 9th May, I was denied boarding by the EasyJet crew members at the boarding gate in Tallinn. They said i need a visa.
Then there were lots of stressfull things happening for next few days.
But does anyone have any initial thoughts?
Thank you so much.
diana_karina
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Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:18 pm

Postby EUsmileWEallsmile » Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:30 pm

diana_karina wrote:Hi, very good discussion is happening here! I wonder if you have any thoughts on my situation?
I am a holder of Estonian Alien's passport (not EU). Live in uk since 2005 with my Estonian (EU family member) mother, she has permanent residence blue booklet. I had residence card for 5 years, it is now expired.
I have decided to travel to Estonia on the 4th May 2012. So checked with UKBA if i need a visa/ extension of residence. But was pointed to this: http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/eucit ... ts-family/
which said 'You do not need to obtain documents confirming your right of residence in the UK if you are a family member of an EEA national.' And the lady added:'Take your mum's residence document just in case, and you will be fine!'

Just to be prepared I took with me: my mum's residence booklet, print out of the page from the website and my birth certificate, my student & staff cards and few more documents.

However on the 9th May, I was denied boarding by the EasyJet crew members at the boarding gate in Tallinn. They said i need a visa.
Then there were lots of stressfull things happening for next few days.
But does anyone have any initial thoughts?
Thank you so much.


Where are you now? Are you in Estonia or the UK?
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Postby diana_karina » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:42 am

Where are you now? Are you in Estonia or the UK?

-
I am back in UK (thank god!). I left Tallinn on 13th May, so 4 days later than expected. It was an absoulte mess tbh. I've asked Tallinn airport manager to call UK and confirm with them that it is ok for me to travel. And yes, it was confirmed- I am ok to board. So she appologised and said I can go on a next plane, which was next day. So I bought a new ticket... She also wrote me a letter to show to new crew members at the boarding gate the next day, so i won't have same problem.

Next day I come to the airport, got as far as Boarding gate again, where easyjet people say that they can not accept that letter as today there is a new manager on shift. :cry:
I was so angry, asked them quickly to call UK, it's not my problem they don't know regulations. So after lots of shouting, they called. And that day, UK said, yes, don't let her on a plane!!! Why do i get conflicting advice?! And I am responsible person, I called UKBA asked my situation before the travel, my mum did, just to confirm, they said it's fine.

It was a very very long story. I've talked to lots and lots of people. Had to spend money on hotels, on plane tickets, on phone calls etc as i have no relatives in Estonia. Missed few days of work because of this delay.

In the end I had to fax copy of my documents to the Stansted Airport Boarding Control: my passport, mum's residence, birth certicicate, proof that i am a student. And they then confirmed to the Airport manager I can board and that they will check my original documents on arrival at Stansted.

And guess what?! I've arrived at Stansted, went through the boarding control and noone checked anything!!! Lady just let me through like nothing ever happened...

What that all suppose to mean?! I just had a feeling it all depends how lucky you get with people you speak to and noone knows the rules :roll:
But who will pay the compensation for all the money spent and stress :(
diana_karina
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Postby John G » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:48 am

diana_karina wrote:Where are you now? Are you in Estonia or the UK?

-
I am back in UK (thank god!). I left Tallinn on 13th May, so 4 days later than expected. It was an absoulte mess tbh. I've asked Tallinn airport manager to call UK and confirm with them that it is ok for me to travel. And yes, it was confirmed- I am ok to board. So she appologised and said I can go on a next plane, which was next day. So I bought a new ticket... She also wrote me a letter to show to new crew members at the boarding gate the next day, so i won't have same problem.

Next day I come to the airport, got as far as Boarding gate again, where easyjet people say that they can not accept that letter as today there is a new manager on shift. :cry:
I was so angry, asked them quickly to call UK, it's not my problem they don't know regulations. So after lots of shouting, they called. And that day, UK said, yes, don't let her on a plane!!! Why do i get conflicting advice?! And I am responsible person, I called UKBA asked my situation before the travel, my mum did, just to confirm, they said it's fine.

It was a very very long story. I've talked to lots and lots of people. Had to spend money on hotels, on plane tickets, on phone calls etc as i have no relatives in Estonia. Missed few days of work because of this delay.

In the end I had to fax copy of my documents to the Stansted Airport Boarding Control: my passport, mum's residence, birth certicicate, proof that i am a student. And they then confirmed to the Airport manager I can board and that they will check my original documents on arrival at Stansted.

And guess what?! I've arrived at Stansted, went through the boarding control and noone checked anything!!! Lady just let me through like nothing ever happened...

What that all suppose to mean?! I just had a feeling it all depends how lucky you get with people you speak to and noone knows the rules :roll:
But who will pay the compensation for all the money spent and stress :(


Geez! Sorry to hear about all that stress! :x

I will let others that know more about the law than me to advice, my only suggestion to you is next time get something in writing!

I am e-mailing the Spanish/Italian and French consulates to confirm my partners EEA travel rights under European Union Directive 2004/38/CE.

As you say, most border guards are inept and don't know the law! You need to go armed with evidence and be willing to fight your corner!

All the best and good luck in the future!

John
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