Brown's views on citizenship

[RobinLondon]

Chancellor of the Exchequer Gordon Brown will suggest today that migrants must perform mandatory community service before being granted citizenship. In principle, that's fine I guess if it leads to worthwhile integration. But why does it nonetheless smack of cynicism?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6399457.stm

What's scarier is perhaps his concept of provisional citizenship. I'm not sure I like where that's going at all. It sounds almost cruel. As it stands, isn't UK citizenship "provisional" to a good deal already:

(from Wikipedia)

Under amendments made by the Immigration, Asylum and Nationality Act 2006, British nationals can be deprived of their citizenship if the Secretary of State is satisfied "deprivation is conducive to the public good". This provision has been in force since 16 June 2006 when the Immigration, Nationality and Asylum Act 2006 (Commencement No 1) Order 2006 came into force. This provision only applies to dual nationals — it is not applicable if deprivation would result in a person's statelessness.

Prior to that date, since 2003, under amendments made by the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002, British nationals could be deprived of their citizenship if the Secretary of State is satisfied they are responsible for acts seriously prejudicial to the vital interests of the United Kingdom or an Overseas Territory.

British nationals who are naturalised or registered may have their certificates revoked (and hence lose British nationality) if British nationality was obtained by fraud or concealment of a material fact.

[jjustyy]

For me, this would only work if all UK citizens when they come of age (say 18 ) have to do some form of community service and celebrate being British.

[jes2jes]

What does Gordon think of the day to day interaction that immigrants have with their GP, checkout lady at the supermarket, ticket sales person at the underground station, bargaining at the market, talking to strangers, etc. I guess he did not really think much of this before coming out with this ridiculous idea. I will not vote for Gordon

[pumkin]

Me thinks that someone is looking for free labour to subsidise their failing community services!!

This is an outrage. Already a legal immigrant has to keep a job and support themselves without recourse to public funds, yet pay taxes, fair enough, I accept this, however, where does he think the average immigrant is going to find time to do this community service when they are working during the week and only have the weekends to spend with their families?!?!?!?

This is the ramblings of someone drowning very fast. It's totally bizarre!

[rooi_ding]

Next labour will be asking for our first born to keep as there own!!!!!

[Dawie]

If anyone needs to do community service it's the Sun-reading, benefit-scrounging, arse-scratching, hoody-wearing, council estate-living, white van-driving natives of this great country.

I'm afraid that it's these native British citizens that need lessons in community building, not immigrants. Most immigrants come from countries where family ties and community relations are very important to everyday life and are well-aware of what it takes to integrate into society.

If you look at the amount of dysfunctional families in Britain it's pretty clear that immigrants aren't the problem, the British underclass are!

[AlexCh]

I liked some comments on the BBC site:

Can't quite believe Madonna would have been happy cleaning the toilets at the local Youth Drop-in Centre.

I wonder if all the British ex pats in France and Spain are queueing up to do voluntary work over there? This is almost dearly beloved. If we have a problem with immigrants in the UK, it is because successive governments have been too incompetent to implement managed migration as they do in Oz and NZ. Still, I'm sure our dentists, doctors, businessmen, football club owners will be more than willing to clean our toilets and sweep our streets. After all,its such a privilege to live in the UK, isn't it??


Another half-baked, crackpot idea scribbled on the back on an envelope to placate the tabloid-reading morons. Decent immigrants who want to work hard in our economy and NHS will be forced to clean the streets which have been festooned with spittle, litter and narcotic paraphernalia by our own indigenous British hooded yobs, thugs and layabouts, i.e. the ones who really are in need of remedial lessons in citizenship, hard graft and comprehensible English

Blair’s government has been involved in three wars, has failed the health system, has failed the education system and now is proposing a law that will clearly upset the emigrants. Is that what the socialism is about?

Grabber Browns statement that immigrants doing voluntary work ("...and will protect and enhance the British way of life") goes to show just how out of touch and hypocritical New Labour are,because they themselves have done more to erode the British way of life than any immigrant.They signned up to the very Human Rights act that immigrant groups would use against them if they tried to implement this ridiculous idea.....

Our next Dear Leader wants to prove that he is part of the "Tough on Immigrants" crowd. He believes it will make him more popular.
Will employers and employees be reimbursed for their time? My boss would be seriously upset if I had to stop work and go clean out canals.
Applying for British citizenship is not a crime, but it is starting to feel like it. This is ridiculous. I have no problem with community service, but only if all citizens have to do it.


What an interesting idea. I take it this will apply to all immigrants, not just the poor ones. Every foreign doctor headhunted by the NHS, every athlete swiped from another country and every foreign businessman who wants to live here can all do their time painting fences along with petty criminals and drug addicts. We can call them "aliens" too, just like the Americans. Welcome to the UK, here's your paintbrush, we're watching you.

What it amounts to is a re-introduction of slavery in Britain: coloured folks from abroad have to render unpaid service. It will make those forced into servitude resent the state doing so and the people they are serving. This will breed nothing but resentment and set a terrible precedent of the state forcing people into unpaid service.

Perhaps we should get immigrants to wear 'L' plates as well while they're going for full citizenship ?

Sounds like a Treasury move to cut funding of centrally funded services so that they can be delivered by Volunteers.

This is getting ridiculous. Community work for aspirant immigrants? So a highly qualified brain surgeon from India will have to spend some time mending cycle paths and chatting to the locals? "Like a cuppa, Dr.Singh?" Is this what Gordon Brown thinks is a sensible idea? It's an insult to all our intelligences.

Let's have a proper, humane and decent immigration policy - not one based on spurious schemes and 20 questions about TV comedy and Henry VIII's wives.

[alientrader]

LOL
now they want to make us do convict labour to qualify for citizenship

[OL7MAX]

Nah, it won't happen. The windbag's just looking for some headlines.

BTW, I liked this:

He said he believed his earlier call for immigrants to be required to be able to speak English

LOL. Over half the natives in Britain can't speak English properly thanks to a social reconstruction experiment called New Labour that went frankenstein wrong. Education, edukation, edookashun.

C'mon Gordon, whose going to teach them damn phoreners to speak proper?

[Dawie]

THR IS AN ENTR GNRTN OF BRTSH YOUNGSTRS WH R GNG 2 SPEAK LKE THS BCAUS ITS TH BST EDCTN THY WLL EVR HV.

[PASS]

Dear Immigrants,

Get ready to go to Iraq or Afganistan, this may become part of qualifying creteria in near future to get citizenship.

It may not end with it, if you lose your life in battle, then the govt might strongly consider citizenship for your family members, otherwise not!

It may be a joke now, but every possibility that it will be a real test in future!

[British]

I was under the impression that British people thought immigrants were cheap labour , but i did not realise that they are of the opinion that immigrants are free labour

If this is to be a law, then every British citizen should be asked to do this, not just immigrants who are applying to be British citizen.

Otehrwise proposals like these itself will be counter-productive and will make it difficult for immigrants to integrate well with the society.

Especially, the idea of multiple tiers of British citizenship (i.e. a native British citizen, an immigrant British citizen who has done community service, etc.) is a very bad idea!

Who puts these stupid ideas into Gordon's brains

[AlexCh]

Who puts these stupid ideas into Gordon's brains

I am more worried about apparent lack of common sense in his brain ...

[kairos]

Compulsory community service is something that is usually reserved for criminals. How nice to let immigrants know that that's how their prospective countrymen and women perceive them.

If I was required to do community service before becoming a citizen I can honestly say that I wouldn't have bothered. My contributions to this country as an educator (I'm a university lecturer) and taxpayer far exceed those of many people who were born here; and the same is true of my many immigrant friends. It's one thing for the undereducated and exploited working class to fail to recognize this and something altogether different for the future prime minister to make such inane and bigoted proposals.

The notion of sub-citizenships is even more repulsive. The suggestion that you have to be born here to fully belong undermines the very notion of citizenship. Does that, by extension, mean that those of us with dual-citizenship should consider our first nationality paramount? Or are we meant to give greater allegiance to our new homeland than it is prepared to offer to us?

[gaurav]

Slavery is back!!!!!

[alientrader]

Please.

everyone knows that the british's attitude towards non-white minorities have always been,"you are receiving the benefits of our great british civillization because you have none. your native culture is brutish, barbaric and uncivillized and thus you shud accept whatever bones we throw at you"

[JAJ]

Chancellor of the Exchequer Gordon Brown will suggest today that migrants must perform mandatory community service before being granted citizenship. In principle, that's fine I guess if it leads to worthwhile integration. But why does it nonetheless smack of cynicism?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6399457.stm

What's scarier is perhaps his concept of provisional citizenship. I'm not sure I like where that's going at all. It sounds almost cruel. As it stands, isn't UK citizenship "provisional" to a good deal already:

Without wanting to be overly party-political, I suspect here that people are reading things into what Mr Brown said that are just not there.

Just because he is a senior politician doesn't in itself mean that he understands the intricacies of the nationality code (he has never been a Home Office minister) and hence I would doubt his words on the subject should be taken in the literal, purist sense that some here have interpreted.

What is welcome is that the Labour Party is finally taking an interest in issues like national identity and national unity. These should be above party politics and accepted by all (eg as in Australia, or Canada, or America), however it has not been that way in Britain at least since the early 1980s.

In a society as diverse as Britain, a sense of common British citizenship is one of the essential elements of the glue holding society together. And citizenship should bring obligations (pay taxes, vote responsibly, serve on jury etc) as well as rights. Although "voluntary" work should be just that - voluntary - British citizenship is a precious thing and it should be more accepted that a person privileged enough to be British should wish to help build (in however small a way) a better United Kingdom.

It will be instructive to see if Mr Brown's noble sentiments about British national identity and British citizenship are applied in Northern Ireland.

[Christophe]

Please.

everyone knows that the british's attitude towards non-white minorities have always been,"you are receiving the benefits of our great british civillization because you have none. your native culture is brutish, barbaric and uncivillized and thus you shud accept whatever bones we throw at you"

Are you forgetting that many of the people who are naturalised as British each year are, in fact, white?

[pumkin]

Please.

everyone knows that the british's attitude towards non-white minorities have always been,"you are receiving the benefits of our great british civillization because you have none. your native culture is brutish, barbaric and uncivillized and thus you shud accept whatever bones we throw at you"

Errmmmm....this effects a lot of people....not just non-whites?!?!? My family for one!

Sorry 'mate'! You can't claim exclusivity on this!

[sowhat]

It looks like this Government instead of making the UK unattractive for illegal immigrants, does its best to make the country increasingly unattractive for legal migrants. I think they believe that the expansion of the EU gives them enough migrants from Eastern Europe and they can go hard on others just to demonstrate to the general public that they are dealing with immigration. I find it completely hypocritical and stupid. It is just the same as the citizenship test, which all ILR applicants now have to pass: I know more about British culture and history than an average British person, who cannot pass it without studying the Life in the UK book.

Me and my wife were involved in some community work a couple of years ago, but I am sure it will not qualify if the Government decides to impose community service on British passport applicants. We will have to do it in designated community centres and very likely also pay for it. The irony is that I do not think that Gordon Brown will survive next general elections: he's too boring and uncharismatic – people tolerate it now because he is not relatively often on TV. But as soon as he becomes a Prime Minister in next few month, people will get fed up with his dull face and boring voice pretty quickly.

[RobinLondon]

Without wanting to be overly party-political, I suspect here that people are reading things into what Mr Brown said that are just not there.

Just because he is a senior politician doesn't in itself mean that he understands the intricacies of the nationality code (he has never been a Home Office minister) and hence I would doubt his words on the subject should be taken in the literal, purist sense that some here have interpreted.

What is welcome is that the Labour Party is finally taking an interest in issues like national identity and national unity. These should be above party politics and accepted by all (eg as in Australia, or Canada, or America), however it has not been that way in Britain at least since the early 1980s.

In a society as diverse as Britain, a sense of common British citizenship is one of the essential elements of the glue holding society together. And citizenship should bring obligations (pay taxes, vote responsibly, serve on jury etc) as well as rights. Although "voluntary" work should be just that - voluntary - British citizenship is a precious thing and it should be more accepted that a person privileged enough to be British should wish to help build (in however small a way) a better United Kingdom.

It will be instructive to see if Mr Brown's noble sentiments about British national identity and British citizenship are applied in Northern Ireland.

I can understand JAJ's perspective here. I think many Canadians in Canada, Americans in the US, and Australians in Australia would say the same thing. Fair enough.

I can only put forth a personal perspective on this. In addition to all the other elements of good citizenship like voting and paying taxes and reporting violent crime, I'm an active participant in community work. I like doing it because I'm sincerely interested in the area I live in. I take part in neighbourhood beautification projects. I also volunteer on a crisis hotline. I'm not trying to toot my own horn, though. I'm just saying that I've already committed myself to working to improve this country. For me personally, vote-getting statements like this--in conjunction with changing rules and dispropotionately higher fees--don't inspire further attachment. They dissuade it.

I'm in no position to set the rules, but I do know how I feel. I thus agree with Brown's position that citizenship is becoming a contract. However whereas he views it as a social one, I'm increasingly seeing it as a business one. To which again I say, fair enough.

[Dawie]

What really annoys me is the way that the aquisition of British citizenship is reported in the media.

If you are a native British citizen and you were watching BBC News, for example, you would be led to believe that all an immigrant has to do to get British citizenship is arrive in the UK, wait a few years, write a test and hey presto! you have British citizenship.

No mention is ever made of the already considerable hoops that we have to jump through to get British citizenship: the stress and strain of trying to get a work permit or HSMP visa, the long long long wait to qualify for ILR, the great stress of actually applying for ILR, another year waiting while on ILR, and eventually the hassle of writing a ridiculously easy citizenship test that is just window dressing for the public and eventually the applying and receiving of citizenship.

Yet, if the media is to be believed, obtaining British citizenship is an easy process and needs to made more difficult. As if waiting 6 years and jumping through numerous bearocratic hoops isn't enough!

JAJ, I agree with you that Gordon Brown shouldn't be taken so literally, however I think the general tone of his speech indicates that he thinks that the current steps that immigrants have to go through to get citizenship are not sufficient to foster a sense of "Britishness" which I, and I'm sure a lot of others, totally disagree with.

[olisun]

What really annoys me is the way that the aquisition of British citizenship is reported in the media.

If you are a native British citizen and you were watching BBC News, for example, you would be led to believe that all an immigrant has to do to get British citizenship is arrive in the UK, wait a few years, write a test and hey presto! you have British citizenship.

No mention is ever made of the already considerable hoops that we have to jump through to get British citizenship: the stress and strain of trying to get a work permit or HSMP visa, the long long long wait to qualify for ILR, the great stress of actually applying for ILR, another year waiting while on ILR, and eventually the hassle of writing a ridiculously easy citizenship test that is just window dressing for the public and eventually the applying and receiving of citizenship.

Yet, if the media is to be believed, obtaining British citizenship is an easy process and needs to made more difficult. As if waiting 6 years and jumping through numerous bearocratic hoops isn't enough!

JAJ, I agree with you that Gordon Brown shouldn't be taken so literally, however I think the general tone of his speech indicates that he thinks that the current steps that immigrants have to go through to get citizenship are not sufficient to foster a sense of "Britishness" which I, and I'm sure a lot of others, totally disagree with.

It's Election time soon so expect cross-party bashing and similar news

[British]

I'm an active participant in community work. I like doing it because I'm sincerely interested in the area I live in. I take part in neighbourhood beautification projects. I also volunteer on a crisis hotline.

Hi RobinLondon,

I thought that a person with Limited Leave to remain (WP holders etc.) are not allowed to pick up any work (be it paid or unpaid) without hte permission of the secretary of the state.

This is even stamped in every LTR holder's passport!!

So, can you clarify that these sort of work is allowed implicitly and that it will not come and haunt the LTR holders later on in their life as to why they did these work (albeit they are good for the society!)?

Just curious!.

[RobinLondon]

Hi RobinLondon,

I thought that a person with Limited Leave to remain (WP holders etc.) are not allowed to pick up any work (be it paid or unpaid) without hte permission of the secretary of the state.

This is even stamped in every LTR holder's passport!!

So, can you clarify that these sort of work is allowed implicitly and that it will not come and haunt the LTR holders later on in their life as to why they did these work (albeit they are good for the society!)?

Just curious!.

I have Entry Clearance/LTR based on UK Ancestry, so there's no restriction on any type of employment that I may take up. I'm still subject to immigration control, but don't need a work permit. I think the same could be said for HSMP holders. To be honest, I don't know how unbridled community altruism would be considered amongst holders of ordinary work permits. Maybe they have to wait until they have ILR to get with the love.