EU national. How to settle in UK despite possible EU exit?

[chrisnorth]

I am an single EU national (from a country that joined the EU in 2004). I don't have any special qualifications and I also can't be a student too. I would like to live in UK, work, and if possible get the citizenship in 6 years, however recent news and developments regarding the possibility of UK quitting the EU make me worried that it may be now impossible.

If I understand correctly, as a EU national, for me to live in UK for 6 years (without studying, just working or self-sufficient) UK needs to stay in EU for those 6 years ("5 year qualifying period" plus additional 12 months that is required before applying for citizenship). And if referendum will decide "out", then I will stop having right to reside in UK and thus will not be able to meet the conditions above?

"You should not have been in breach of immigration law during the residential qualifying
period. You should have been here legally. In other words, you must have had the necessary
permission under the immigration laws to be in the UK. You may be refused if you have
been in breach of immigration laws during the residential qualifying period. "
from a Naturalisation Booklet https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... let-an.pdf

From the quote above I understand that I should not be in breach of immigration law during a period of 6 years. Will the UK exit from EU mean that I will no longer be able to legally stay in the country on the basis of "exercising treaty rights"? Or perhaps EEA membership is different from EU membership and if UK continues to be part of EEA, then I might be legally allowed to stay and work in a similar way and still be allowed to apply for citizenship in the future? I've tried my best to read the government website and most of the materials there but I need some help. I'd like to know what options I have given my circumstances.

Please let me know if my request is more suitable in a different forum section.

[CR001]

Recently this issue was raised on the forum but I am unable to find the thread at the moment. It is unlikely that, should this happen, that it will be an instant overnight thing. It will take a long time to sort this out IF it does happen.

[chrisnorth]

Recently this issue was raised on the forum but I am unable to find the thread at the moment.

Thank you for your reply. Perhaps you remember in which section that thread was? Would be very useful for me to read it.

It is unlikely that, should this happen, that it will be an instant overnight thing. It will take a long time to sort this out IF it does happen.

It's possible that I'm overthinking this, but I hope you can understand how difficult if would be for me if suddenly I would find myself in a situation when I would have to leave the country after having invested years of my time. For this reason I need to be more sure. How long in your opinion it will take? I have read some information that was possibly designed especially to create a feeling of uncertainty. It may not be correct, but it says that if UK votes "out" then there's only 2 years period after which it will no longer be in EU, which may or will likely happen faster than 5 years that I need to live in UK to get ILR, depending on when I travel to UK. I hope this explains why it's important to me to have good understanding of what may happen and how it may affect me.

[ban.s]

EU referendum and possible British Exit are speculation and theory only at this stage. Everything is up in the air. No one knows what will happen and how it will impact British and EU citizens. So if you are looking for a definitive answer, unfortunately, there is none.
You’ll need to wait and watch how the next year general election unfolds. A conservative victory may strengthen the referendum but again, there was earlier an ironclad guarantee to give voters a choice on Lisbon Treaty. That popular vote never happened. It’s unlikely this referendum will ever happen in 2017. A tory defeat or coalition will kick this into long grass.

[chrisnorth]

EU referendum and possible British Exit are speculation and theory only at this stage. Everything is up in the air. No one knows what will happen and how it will impact British and EU citizens. So if you are looking for a definitive answer, unfortunately, there is none.

As I may have to leave my country anyway, I guess I am also interested in a less definitive answer. I think I can wait for elections, but circumstances may change. From what I have read in one document about possible exit - there is a possibility that if I will already be exercising my treaty right in UK when and if exit will happen, then the exit may not revoke my right to exercise it, therefore I will be able to stay for those 5 years. But that's only what I've read in one source. Would be nice to get ideas about it.

[chrisnorth]

I also have another question I hope somebody will answer.

If EU national went to UK and overstayed for 6 months (not being a burden, not asking for any money from UK), then on his own bought the ticket back before October 2012, wasn't issued any papers, wasn't stopped at the airport. Will a person be able to get back to UK and allowed to exercise treaty rights if more than 12 months have passed since he was out of UK? Will this overstaying affect anything in the future when applying for various documents needed to work, live, etc. in UK?

[LilyLalilu]

If an exit would happen, I believe it to be rather unlikely that EU citizens already in the UK exercising treaty rights would be asked to leave as this would have huge humanitarian implications and would provoke a number of legal challenges.

It is likely that there would be transitional agreements for these people, and that restrictions would only apply to all new EU citizens seeking to enter the UK after the exit took place.

Have a look at this article, it is quite interesting:
http://eulawanalysis.blogspot.co.uk/201 ... onals.html

If you want to come to the UK, I would not be too worried at the moment, just move here and then wait and see

[chrisnorth]

Have a look at this article, it is quite interesting:
http://eulawanalysis.blogspot.co.uk/201 ... onals.html

If you want to come to the UK, I would not be too worried at the moment, just move here and then wait and see

Thanks.

"It is likely therefore that most of those EU citizens who are already exercising their Treaty rights in the UK would be permitted to remain while they continue to exercise those rights, with the prospect of obtaining permanent residence or indefinite leave in due course. Those who are not exercising their rights, usually the unemployed, would however become easier to remove permanently as they would no longer have enhanced rights under Directive 2004/38."

How do I make sure that I never stop exercising those rights? As I understand, I have a limited time to be looking for work. How much time that really is? And if I find work and then lose it, how much time will I have again to find work to be continuously exercising treaty rights?

[chrisnorth]

If an exit would happen, I believe it to be rather unlikely that EU citizens already in the UK exercising treaty rights would be asked to leave as this would have huge humanitarian implications and would provoke a number of legal challenges.

It is likely that there would be transitional agreements for these people, and that restrictions would only apply to all new EU citizens seeking to enter the UK after the exit took place.

Have a look at this article, it is quite interesting:
http://eulawanalysis.blogspot.co.uk/201 ... onals.html

Here's the question I really hope somebody will be able to answer. EU citizen would only have his country's passport, but not UK passport if UK exits, obviously. How would those transitional agreements help with this? Does this mean that everyone will be obliged to acknowledge EU passport for years because EU citizen was exercising his treaty rights at that time before exit from EU?

[chrisnorth]

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/vide ... -row-video

I'm not sure what he means in this video. Is he really saying here that new immigration system will only apply to people who aren't already in UK, or is he avoiding telling straight that those who will be already in will only have an option to get a work permit or leave.

What does a "work permit" mean exactly? Does it include a permit to be self-employed? Is the name "work permit" suggesting that there must be requirements to get it like certain skills or is going to be given to every EU citizen already in UK at the time of exit?

[chrisnorth]

If an exit would happen, I believe it to be rather unlikely that EU citizens already in the UK exercising treaty rights would be asked to leave as this would have huge humanitarian implications and would provoke a number of legal challenges.

LilyLalilu, can you talk more about this? If what I understand is right, exercising treaty rights is a process that "ends" in certain circumstances and for a person to exercise treaty rights there are certain requirements like working, being self-employed or a jobseeker. But what would would happen if someone stops working, or being self-employed, or seeks for a job for too long? Would it then mean that treaty rights are not exercised anymore?

It is likely that there would be transitional agreements for these people, and that restrictions would only apply to all new EU citizens seeking to enter the UK after the exit took place.

I also wonder what this transitional agreement means. It seems to mean only that people will be allowed to stay for a certain period, and after that period they will require work permit and if they can't get one they will be asked to leave.

[LilyLalilu]

Well if you stop exercising your treaty rights, yes, that means you are not exercising them anymore...

As for the other questions, I don't think anyone can answer them for sure...all we can do is speculate at this point, so the best thing to do is probably to wait and see what happens.

[chrisnorth]

Well if you stop exercising your treaty rights, yes, that means you are not exercising them anymore...

As for the other questions, I don't think anyone can answer them for sure...all we can do is speculate at this point, so the best thing to do is probably to wait and see what happens.

Thanks a lot for your replies, LilyLalilu, and for being helpful. It's very important to me, so I will have to ask some more questions and hope that I will get an answer. Will a change of status from worker to job-seeker or the other way around automatically revoke exercising of treaty rights? I'm worried that it will, so then the only option that I will have is to not change work and not to lose work for god knows how long, which is not good at all. If, on the other hand, I can keep exercising treaty rights even if I change my status after this hypothetical EU exit and after a transitional period, then that would be a different situation.

[chrisnorth]

Bump.

[chrisnorth]

Bump.

[chrisnorth]

I have been searching for answers and here's what I have so far. I will outline my possible plan below. It is based on pieces of information that I have found on this forum, here are the most important of them which may or not be 100% correct (I need help here):

i don't think it will affect the status of people who have appiled for eea1-2-3-4 before the day UK will leave EU as same in HongKong its was a british colony and people who born there ebfore britishers left it can still have british passport.

http://www.immigrationboards.com/eea-ro ... 94832.html

And even then, you can be sure that no EU-national or their family members will be asked to leave the UK against their will. If anyone would be forced out by the UK government, the government should be prepared to repatriate all British living in another EU country, because the EU will retaliate by reciprocity.

Furthermore, leaving the EU does not mean leaving the EEA and so Directive 2004/38 will remain in place anyway and so will the EEA Regulations.

If in fact the UK will leave the EEA and rebuilt her former empire by annexing British India and other colonies EEA regulations would still apply, why? UK laws are rarely retroactive. It has been the practice for many years that new UK migration regulations only apply to those who make applications after new regulations came into force.

http://www.immigrationboards.com/eea-ro ... 23216.html

Those sound reassuring. My hope is that not retrospective means that if I were to start exercising treaty rights and technically not stop doing that, then I may have a chance to technically exercise the treaty rights for 5 years even if FULL exit happens end of 2017 (I am aware of 2 years transitional period, but I know it's possible to invoke Article 50 of the treaty even before the referendum, so preparing for the worst here). I'm going to be using using further information provided by another user to accomplish the continuous exercising of treaty rights:

However, if you are one of the many who, during the 5 years, changed jobs (or intend to!) and had a substantial break while looking for one, BE AWARE:

Many people who worked for many years, and stopped working for whatever reason, are supposed to do AT LEAST SOMETHING!!!

1) REGISTER with a JOB CENTRE as JOB SEEKERS while looking for another job. This is one of the requirements BOTH in the UK legislation (Regulation 2006) and the EU Directive 2004/38. If you do this, and you genuinely seek employment, you are still technically a WORKER (even though unemployed) for the purposes of the Directive and more importantly, there is no break in B) above- your exercising of the Treaty Rights; or

2) Take out a COMPREHENSIVE MEDICAL INSURANCE (NOT NHS) (and have enough money, generally not a problem). This way, you technically SWITCH into another category- becoming a self-sufficient person and your exercise of Treaty Rights has NO BREAKS as per B) above.

http://www.immigrationboards.com/eea-ro ... 49169.html

So the plan is to come to UK and apply for EEA1 as soon as possible, to have proof that I have started exercising my treaty rights (by making an application), and from then make sure that I am always either a worker, jobseeker (which will count towards being a worker?) OR self-sufficient (by buying CSI and having proof of funds) all the time, which, IF the author of the quote above is right, should mean that no break of exercising of the treaty rights is going to occur, and so if full exit happens before 5 years pass, my hope is that as long as I will not break the continuity of exercising of treaty rights, I will be able to stay in UK AND get ILR in 5 years, long after the full exit.

Now please tell me - is this going to work or not, and why. I understand that nothing is certain, but I need the best info I can get, even if it may not work in the end and UK decide to deport 2.3 million of EU immigrants on life boats (joke). Please don't say that it's impossible to answer, because the helpful post I liked to above pretty much proves that not knowing details may be very costly. I have already found some answers on this very forum that weren't posted in this thread (see above). So there is probably something useful for me to learn still. Thanks in advance.

[chrisnorth]

Can I ask moderator to move this thread to "EEA-route Applications" section? Because almost every reply about it that I have found about Brexit was in that section. And my route seems to be EEA clearly if it's the same as EU.

[chrisnorth]

In addition to what I wrote above I have found another quote which states:

If you have already been working/studying (or otherwise exercising treaty rights with the proper medical insurance if required) you would already be eligible for PR in the UK. That way, leaving the EU wouldn't have an impact on you. You might even already be eligible for British citizenship which would further ensure that you wouldn't be affected. Of course, you need to consider the impact, if any, on your Spanish citizenship.

http://www.immigrationboards.com/eea-ro ... 65416.html

Guys, please help me to confirm this to be sure. I wish to understand this on a legal level and find a law which ensures that EU exit would not have an impact on anyone already exercising treaty rights. Also, as I wrote before, I wish to know how to make sure that I never stop exercising treaty rights. LilyLalilu mentioned that nobody would probably be able to answer this, but based on quotes above it seems like people are pretty sure about it, so I'm guessing that they're probably basing their statements on understanding of the law. I think it means that someone who understands law very well should be able to answer my questions?

[Hubba]

In addition to what I wrote above I have found another quote which states:

If you have already been working/studying (or otherwise exercising treaty rights with the proper medical insurance if required) you would already be eligible for PR in the UK. That way, leaving the EU wouldn't have an impact on you. You might even already be eligible for British citizenship which would further ensure that you wouldn't be affected. Of course, you need to consider the impact, if any, on your Spanish citizenship.

http://www.immigrationboards.com/eea-ro ... 65416.html

Guys, please help me to confirm this to be sure. I wish to understand this on a legal level and find a law which ensures that EU exit would not have an impact on anyone already exercising treaty rights. Also, as I wrote before, I wish to know how to make sure that I never stop exercising treaty rights. LilyLalilu mentioned that nobody would probably be able to answer this, but based on quotes above it seems like people are pretty sure about it, so I'm guessing that they're probably basing their statements on understanding of the law. I think it means that someone who understands law very well should be able to answer my questions?

You won't find any laws about this subject, simply due to the fact that they don't exist. There is no legal framework regarding EU-state citizens statuses if the UK drops out of the EU.

All you're going to find are guesses. Due to UK's human rights history, there will most likely be legal arrangements to allow EU citizens currently exercising Treaty Rights to remain in country. My guess is that they would probably drop those exercising Treaty Rights as Jobseekers, since it would be an opportunity for them to trim the numbers. Workers, students and self-sufficient would be ok on my opinion. They would also make it much more difficult to bring non-EU partners to the UK, at the least to the same level as people on work permits and UK citizens.

Once again, these are all guesses. Sticking my finger in the air here.

[chrisnorth]

You won't find any laws about this subject, simply due to the fact that they don't exist. There is no legal framework regarding EU-state citizens statuses if the UK drops out of the EU.

But some people clearly speak about it with certainty, see quotes above. One person said that everyone who made EEA applications before exit date would be fine. There has to be something they were basing this on, so I would hope that someone who knows laws super well should be able to have some convincing answers. Even anti-immigration party's MP said that "if you're here legally today and if we were to leave (EU) today, you would have the legal right to stay". Exact words. Different people say different things, but that was one of the recent statements.

All you're going to find are guesses. Due to UK's human rights history, there will most likely be legal arrangements to allow EU citizens currently exercising Treaty Rights to remain in country. My guess is that they would probably drop those exercising Treaty Rights as Jobseekers, since it would be an opportunity for them to trim the numbers. Workers, students and self-sufficient would be ok on my opinion. They would also make it much more difficult to bring non-EU partners to the UK, at the least to the same level as people on work permits and UK citizens.

If we take into account the view that "UK immigration law is rarely retrospective", this seems too harsh and weird for me. I expect something better than "if you lost your job and registered as a jobseeker, bye bye, we need to trim numbers here". I think there is already a limit in place - one can only be jobseeker for 6 months. More than that and there will be a gap in treaty rights anyway. Seems like there's already laws in place that trim numbers.

If politicians say with a straight face "if you're here legally today and if we were to leave (EU) today, you would have the legal right to stay", then I think someone has to have a decent idea of why it's being said and what it means practically.

[Hubba]

You won't find any laws about this subject, simply due to the fact that they don't exist. There is no legal framework regarding EU-state citizens statuses if the UK drops out of the EU.

But some people clearly speak about it with certainty, see quotes above. One person said that everyone who made EEA applications before exit date would be fine. There has to be something they were basing this on, so I would hope that someone who knows laws super well should be able to have some convincing answers. Even anti-immigration party's MP said that "if you're here legally today and if we were to leave (EU) today, you would have the legal right to stay". Exact words. Different people say different things, but that was one of the recent statements.

All you're going to find are guesses. Due to UK's human rights history, there will most likely be legal arrangements to allow EU citizens currently exercising Treaty Rights to remain in country. My guess is that they would probably drop those exercising Treaty Rights as Jobseekers, since it would be an opportunity for them to trim the numbers. Workers, students and self-sufficient would be ok on my opinion. They would also make it much more difficult to bring non-EU partners to the UK, at the least to the same level as people on work permits and UK citizens.

If we take into account the view that "UK immigration law is rarely retrospective", this seems too harsh and weird for me. I expect something better than "if you lost your job and registered as a jobseeker, bye bye, we need to trim numbers here". I think there is already a limit in place - one can only be jobseeker for 6 months. More than that and there will be a gap in treaty rights anyway. Seems like there's already laws in place that trim numbers.

If politicians say with a straight face "if you're here legally today and if we were to leave (EU) today, you would have the legal right to stay", then I think someone has to have a decent idea of why it's being said and what it means practically.

You're looking for some reassurance, but as I've said, there's no legal framework for this. To speak with certainty means nothing if such certainty isn't based on the rule of law. Even MPs talking about this are just making it up based on their judgement/desires/objectives. They can say anything with a straight face, that doesn't mean what they're saying is backed by law. Nick Clegg said that theere would be no uni fees increase in a government he was in with a straight face. David Cameron said, with a straight face, that immigration numbers would be brought down to tens of thousands and nothing happened.

Some of the assumptions made by these MPs regarding EU state citizens' statuses in case of UK exit of the EU are based on human rights enshrined by law in the UK, but these cases would have to be tested on court in order to be incorporated to law, if no further framework is developed (which will certainly happen if the UK ever leaves the EU).There's no legal framework for now. Of course, people who applies before exit date would be fine, since their application would have to be honored by the UK since the application itself would have been done whilst the Treaty was valid.

[chrisnorth]

To speak with certainty means nothing if such certainty isn't based on the rule of law.

I agree. Which is why I am not just listening to what MPs say but I'm trying to make sure that they're basing it on the law. That MP also said after he said that think I quoted that it would not be possible legally to make it otherwise.

There's no legal framework for now. Of course, people who applies before exit date would be fine, since their application would have to be honored by the UK since the application itself would have been done whilst the Treaty was valid.

No legal framework but you're somewhat sure that people who applied before exit date would be fine. It probably means that something is in the law that would prevent it form happening otherwise. Sounds like a good thing.
Previously you've said:

My guess is that they would probably drop those exercising Treaty Rights as Jobseekers, since it would be an opportunity for them to trim the numbers.

Then they only would be fine if they weren't jobseekers. But do you mean just those who applied for EEA1 as jobseekers or also those who applied for EEA1 as workers and then lost their job and became jobseekers? If I read 2006 regulations correctly, worker status isn't lost automatically if a person lost his job involuntarily and is registered as a jobseeker and is genuinely looking for work (and couple of more possibilities). But if a person becomes unemployed voluntarily (decides to quit a job) he then technically gets jobseeker status. Correct? And according to your guess he then would be dropped.
Let's say I find a job and apply for EEA1 as a worker and get registration certificate, and then I quit voluntarily after UK exit (total exit from EEA too), I come to jobcentre to register as a jobseeker. Is there some law or something in place that would prevent them from saying "we're not in EU anymore and you have an EU passport, and since you're unemployed voluntarily, you would require a work permit now to register with us or start working"? Since I would have applied for certificate before exit, would this mean that EEA directive would still apply to me even if UK wasn't part of EEA anymore?

[chrisnorth]

Some of the assumptions made by these MPs regarding EU state citizens' statuses in case of UK exit of the EU are based on human rights enshrined by law in the UK

Can you specify what rights would those be? I have read this list http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/your ... rights-act and I fail to see any right here that would apply. Please, help with this case, anyone who can. I am really worried about this thing, as if let's say I go to UK next month, and if referendum will happen, for example, in the November 2017, and if hypothetically people will vote no, then full exit happens in November 2019 (two years after) and I will be couple of months short to get PR or ILR. Are there any concessions that would help if one is one-two-three months short of getting PR/ILR? Anti-immigrant party (which I don't really believe will be elected) are were also talking about giving work permits for transitional period to anyone already in UK, which means that they think that technically full exit and change to a points based system will happen instantly after a hypothetical "out" vote, hence requiring work permits. But then I really don't understand why did one of them said that as the official exit shouldn't happen instantly, only in 2 years, so no permits should be required.

[Hubba]

Some of the assumptions made by these MPs regarding EU state citizens' statuses in case of UK exit of the EU are based on human rights enshrined by law in the UK

Can you specify what rights would those be? I have read this list http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/your ... rights-act and I fail to see any right here that would apply. Please, help with this case, anyone who can. I am really worried about this thing, as if let's say I go to UK next month, and if referendum will happen, for example, in the November 2017, and if hypothetically people will vote no, then full exit happens in November 2019 (two years after) and I will be couple of months short to get PR or ILR. Are there any concessions that would help if one is one-two-three months short of getting PR/ILR? Anti-immigrant party (which I don't really believe will be elected) are were also talking about giving work permits for transitional period to anyone already in UK, which means that they think that technically full exit and change to a points based system will happen instantly after a hypothetical "out" vote, hence requiring work permits. But then I really don't understand why did one of them said that as the official exit shouldn't happen instantly, only in 2 years, so no permits should be required.

Man, seriously, stop going mad over something that is out of your control. There isn't even a line of law about these hypothetical situations yet. If you're looking for reassurance about something that may happen in 3, 4 or 5 years in the future, you won't find any. You either live with this fact or you don't. There's no amount of questioning that will help you with it. As I've said, there is no framework or guarantees in law regarding the immigration status of EU citizens in the case of UK exit of the EU. There simply isn't any, this situation is not covered by law at the moment and is completely hypothetical. It would be entirely for the UK government to come up with such law framework. Of course, other countries may be able to influence a bit due to the presence of UK nationals on their territory, but at the end, the UK government is who will create the law.

Example of this would be changes to the already existing non-EU immigration framework. If they decide tomorrow to change the naturalisation requirements, thousands of people would be affected, but the government would be on its right to pass the law and enforce it. Such change could of course be questioned on court, but who knows what would be the outcome.

When immigrating abroad you're always depositing your trust on the government of the country you're immigrating to. It is something that every immigrant must learn to live with until such government becomes your government, i.e. a government that represents you. This is something most people who emigrate have trouble living with.

[chaoclive]

Man, seriously, stop going mad over something that is out of your control. There isn't even a line of law about these hypothetical situations yet. If you're looking for reassurance about something that may happen in 3, 4 or 5 years in the future, you won't find any. You either live with this fact or you don't. There's no amount of questioning that will help you with it. As I've said, there is no framework or guarantees in law regarding the immigration status of EU citizens in the case of UK exit of the EU. There simply isn't any, this situation is not covered by law at the moment and is completely hypothetical. It would be entirely for the UK government to come up with such law framework. Of course, other countries may be able to influence a bit due to the presence of UK nationals on their territory, but at the end, the UK government is who will create the law.

Example of this would be changes to the already existing non-EU immigration framework. If they decide tomorrow to change the naturalisation requirements, thousands of people would be affected, but the government would be on its right to pass the law and enforce it. Such change could of course be questioned on court, but who knows what would be the outcome.

When immigrating abroad you're always depositing your trust on the government of the country you're immigrating to. It is something that every immigrant must learn to live with until such government becomes your government, i.e. a government that represents you. This is something most people who emigrate have trouble living with.

I totally agree. Absolutely no point worrying at this stage. Wait until something is actually decided and then consider your options.