New rules for Older dependant relatives (for settlement)

malwajatt · Post by **malwajatt** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:52 am

Dear All,

Now that the new rules have been implemented which say:

only close relatives will be allowed to enter those who can demonstrate that as a result of age, illness or dis-ability they require the level of long term care that can only be provided in the UK.

Having worked in the UK for so many years and paying higher rate tax so that the unemployed, pensioners, NHS can be properly run --how is it fair to say that we cannot bring our own parents (or widowed parent) to stay with us when they are old and ill and vulnerable. ( is it not impractical and in-human ?)

Neways--- (after taking the frustration out) on a more practical note--- does emotional and psychological support that only a child or grand children can provide to an elderly (ill) parent count towards your arguement / evidence?

MPH80 · Post by **MPH80** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:07 pm

Not based on the examples given in the statement of intent where if the care could be paid for - it was acceptable and the person wouldn't qualify.

Oh - and on the tax thing - tax doesn't confer rights. Having paid in doesn't mean you get paid out too. Sad but true.

The UK rules on elderly dependants have always been tough and had a very high hurdle - now they are tougher.

M.

deleted_user · Post by **deleted_user** » Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:02 pm

malwajatt wrote:how is it fair to say that we cannot bring our own parents (or widowed parent) to stay with us when they are old and ill and vulnerable. ( is it not impractical and in-human ?)

Exactly my point. Please sign if not already done so:
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/36798

Lucapooka · Post by **Lucapooka** » Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:06 pm

The UK has never permitted chain migration of this nature, now or previously, unless in compassionate circumstances. Everyone gets old and you should have considered this scenario before you sought to settle in the UK!

deleted_user · Post by **deleted_user** » Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:23 pm

Lucapooka wrote:The UK has never permitted chain migration of this nature, now or previously, unless in compassionate circumstances. Everyone gets old and you should have considered this scenario before you sought to settle in the UK!

I disagree. According to previous rules any elderly close family relative over 65 years of age who is financially dependant on the sponsor could apply to live with the sponsor. Several of my friends were able to apply for residence for their lone parent especially immediately after the death of one parent. These were all genuine cases. And this does not form any chain, how many grand grand parents have you who are still alive?

malwajatt · Post by **malwajatt** » Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:11 pm

http://www.migrantsrights.org.uk/blog/2 ... e-affected

Check the link and add it to ur Facebook page. They will start a campaign this autumn to fight against inhuman laws. So spread the word and help for a change.

Cheers
Ranjit

newperson · Post by **newperson** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:24 pm

I have to agree with Lucapooka.

Moreover, why should the UK seek to liberally let in elderly people who themselves have paid in nothing towards the Exchequer and will now be most demanding of social and medical care? From a strictly rational, economic perspective, it doesn't make sense. And in these austere days, those are the loose strings that get tightened first.

I remember reading somewhere what a government's ideal is: High-paid workers who pay lots of tax in their prime and then emigrate somewhere else in their old age. Or even better, they get a fatal heart attack at 65.

All this is cynical business, but they don't call economics the dismal science for nothing. :-/

asim72 · Post by **asim72** » Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:10 pm

I am sure that people who are personally affected by new immigration rules will try to protest by petitions etc.

But to be honest, it will bring no results. More than 90 percent of UK population is in favour of tighter immigration.

Every single political party in UK is behind new immigration rules. There might be odd little changes here and there which could be interpreted as things getting "easy", but generally immigration as a whole will get stricter and stricter in future.

malwajatt · Post by **malwajatt** » Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:30 pm

To luckapooka and newperson,

The value elderly add to this useless exchequer is that their kids are high rate tax payers into it and not claiming a single penny.

People who have parents are not going to leave them alone, they will either fight legal cases to challenge the government or leave the country with their skills.

That will just leave people like u in this country to get old with a crumbling nhs system all to yourself.

Malwajatt

asim72 · Post by **asim72** » Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:13 pm

Who is this "you"?

Do we know each other?

Do you think that only skilled people in this country are those who are immigrants?

And really if they are so skilled and in demand throughout the world, and if they think system is too cruel for them, then I will urge them to immediately stop paying hefty taxes to this cruel nation and leave this nazi country.

Why live in such a country? Why not go to your motherland and help your own country and people? Why did these people left their motherland in the first place? Did someone invite them to UK? Why did they leave their poor nation behind and came to UK for the greed of money?

Anyways, look to the future and be positive. All the "skilled" migrants will now realize that going back to their country is the best course of action, and there is no point supporting and financing a lawless, corrupt, inhumane and cruel national of Britain.

malwajatt · Post by **malwajatt** » Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:28 pm

Asim

My post was not directed towards u . So why r u getting so excited and irritated?

Ranjanx · Post by **Ranjanx** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:43 am

To All

I am affected by this law and I've included the letter I posted to my MP as a first step towards protesting it. I am looking to go to the next step and challenge it the legal way. Please let me know if any of the others are willing to join up or suggest any lawyers/organizations to help in the cause.

My letter to Maria Miller -

My wife and I are Indian nationals, settled in the UK with an Indefinite Leave to Remain and looking to go for UK nationality in the coming months. We had decided to stay here with the intent of settling down, provided my widowed mother would be able to join us here as a dependent adult relative once she attained the age of 65 years, as per the Immigration Laws at the time.

Now that she has very recently turned 65, we realized the latest changes to Immigration Law passed on 9th July 2012 do not allow her the option to stay with us as a parent in a gracefully healthy state but increasingly dependent nevertheless.

As mentioned in the Introduction in The Statement of Intent : Family Immigration document published by the Home Office, point 17 states -

"non-EEA adult dependent relatives will only be able to settle in the UK if they can demonstrate that, as a result of age, illness or disability, they require a level of long-term personal care that can only be provided in the UK by their relative here and without recourse to public funds"

(http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... am-mig.pdf)

I would like to humbly but firmly register my unhappiness and disappointment with this rule. The rule goes against quite a few human values and common sense, to say the least. It also suggests that the rhetoric about promoting healthier family ties for a better country are just that - words from politicians.

Further, I would request you to please take it up at the appropriate discussions in the House of Commons with the following to support my position and that of others affected by the changes -

1) My wife and I are both working with a healthy tax payments of 22% and 40% respectively over the last 6 years, entering the increasingly rare club of contributors to the UK economy without access to public funds.. We also contribute to the economy like every other sincere citizen by means of NHS contributions, VAT, council tax, TV license, charity contributions and many more.

2) As per Indian culture, it is my duty and right to be able to support my dependent parents. This duty is not expected to be passed on by paying off a maid or healthcare workers or asking some relative to do it for you, as the new rule suggests. This is a duty of a son or daughter, taken as a path to fulfill one's 'Dharma' - way of life.
People might consider me to be a religious person but I know the right values form wrong ones. I do honestly believe that the UK society has open arms for people of any culture. Taking care of aging parents is a matter of deep rooted culture that comes with immigrants to the shores of UK and therefore should be accepted.

3) As I understand, the economic state of affairs in UK, particularly the financial condition of old age homes, has shown that taking care of one's own parents is the most appropriate, wise and natural thing to do in this day and age. Even for someone not tied to the Indian culture.
The said changes to the Immigration policy above promotes exactly the opposite.

4) We have come to settle here, fully abiding with the laws of Immigration and otherwise. The laws at the time of our decision to settle expected us to wait for having our dependent parents join us when they need us to be with them. Given the recent change as per the rule above, it feels like being cheated as the lawmakers have suddenly changed their mind about how we treat our parents. If there is a genuine case for the new restrictions to apply, at the very least it needs to be applied with some transitional arrangements in place for this category of applicants, just like all other categories.

5) My request for staying here, working here and then settling here were all based on how much I could earn and contribute to the economy with my skills as a professional. Apparently, UK wants me to continue working at least at my current level and therefore would like me to stay here as a human being. If the lawmakers were to apply a preferential treatment to one set of immigrants only (EEA nationals), it might be a better consideration to provide better rights to those contributing more to the economy. That is immigrants like me coming through the Highly Skilled Migrant Programme or its equivalent.
It is not my case that EEA immigrants might or might not be contributing as much to the UK economy as immigrants from Non-EEA countries arriving via Highly Skilled Migrant Programmes. In fact, I believe everyone has the same right and duty to support their dependent parents.

To close, I would re-iterate that the changes to this law are a big factor in deciding the future of my family's stay here. As I see it, a win-win situation for both United Kingdom and me as an Immigrant, economically, culturally and on humanitarian grounds would be to allow me to request a dependent Visa for my dependent mother. I would very much like to stay here with my dignity and humanity intact rather than go out again looking for a country that values me as a human and not just another set of hands paying to the treasury, expecting me to give up my culture, values and parents in return.

Lucapooka · Post by **Lucapooka** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:19 am

Ranjanx wrote:We had decided to stay here with the intent of settling down, provided my widowed mother would be able to join us here as a dependent adult relative once she attained the age of 65 years, as per the Immigration Laws at the time.

Which, even under the previous legislation, she would not have been able to do unless she was indigent. There has never been automatic right to non-nuclear family chain migration in the UK and you should have informed yourself of this before your family embarked on its journey towards seeking betterment in another country. She is only alone because you left her!

Furthermore, your wishes and desires are diametrically opposed to the wishes and desires of the overwhelming majority or UK residents and tax payers (which, incidentally, I am not a part of).

MPH80 · Post by **MPH80** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:04 pm

2) As per Indian culture, it is my duty and right to be able to support my dependent parents.

I have an issue with this. My wife is from Peru. In Peru - family is valued highly and it would be considered her duty to see her family at least once a week if not a day.

Doesn't mean her brother will get the right to live in the UK so she can fulfil that aspect of her culture.

Yes - the UK has traditionally been tolerant of different cultures, but tolerant doesn't mean allowing all required elements. Some cultures out there still believe in sacrificing virgins to appease the gods - it'd still be called murder here.

Moving to another country means you give up some of your culture and absorb some of the new culture you move to.

Equally - rules change - you cannot expect to move to a new country and expect all the rules to remain in place.

If you consider it your duty to look after your older relatives, and the country you've moved to doesn't allow it ... you've got two choices - ignore the duty or return home (well - 3 - protest if you think it'll change anything).

And before I'm criticised for this - my wife and I have been discussing moving to Peru to allow her to be near her family so she gets that duty sorted. We accept the rules are set at they are and we have to make a choice.

M.

Ranjanx · Post by **Ranjanx** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:40 pm

Lucapooka wrote: Furthermore, your wishes and desires are diametrically opposed to the wishes and desires of the overwhelming majority or UK residents and tax payers (which, incidentally, I am not a part of).

I'm not sure if you have a verified survey to back your claims but if there was one, I would like to see how it panned out. Would the overwhelming majority like to continue supporting EEA nationals AND their families even if they are unskilled or semi skilled, not contributing as much to the economy ? Or would they rather support Highly Skilled Migrant immigrants who are thoroughly checked to see if they earn enough to pay at least 40% tax and in some cases spouses working as well.

MPH80 wrote:Some cultures out there still believe in sacrificing virgins to appease the gods - it'd still be called murder here.

Your post made some sense till this point. Once you start comparing and confusing the universal virtue of supporting older generation with something like murder, I don't think I need to indulge you or gratify your post with a response

All said and done, I am not expecting for each and everyone on this forum to suddenly start supporting or sympathizing with me or my letter. The fact that this is an immigration forum means people coming here have or had at some point an immigration related issue. The discussions and posts are generally expected to be around the laws, rules and procedures. A post does not mean you start professing on the justification of who does or does not deserve to get an immigration.

Lucapooka · Post by **Lucapooka** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:52 pm

You tone seem to suggest that paying tax at the 40% threshold in some way makes your case (against the UK's position on non-nuclear family migration) more solid or reasonable. Why is that?

If the UK were to allow this sort of migration, it would have to completely overhaul (abandon!) its welfare state and the philosophy that holds that up. You say you will support her but, that's not entirely true. She will still avail herself of the NHS, taking up a seat in the waiting room. She will still ride the bus and tube with her free pass. Count the number of settled migrant workers in the UK and then allow for up to twice that number in old age pensioners added to the pool of people who are already elbowing each other at the trough for their entitlements. If she needs a hip replacement would you pay for this yourself or expect the NHS to serve its purpose? You might even say yes, but that would put you in a very small minority of your fellow settled migrants.

Here in Brazil, we don't have a problem with this because the state offers nothing.

MPH80 · Post by **MPH80** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:54 pm

My example was placing the extreme example of your argument that your culture's duties should be accepted by the UK. I'm not equating anything to murder - I am merely providing an example of another culture's duty that would not be permissable in the UK.

The fact that they are your culture's duties places no burden on any other culture to accept them, no matter whether they are at the extreme end or the more friendly end.

Nor can you use that as an argument as to why the rules shouldn't be changed.

M.

Ranjanx · Post by **Ranjanx** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:02 pm

Lucapooka wrote:You tone seem to suggest that paying tax at the 40% threshold in some way makes your case (against the UK's position on non-nuclear family migration) more solid or reasonable. Why is that?

If the UK were to allow this sort of migration, it would have to completely overhaul (abandon!) its welfare state and the philosophy that holds that up. You say you will support her but, that's not entirely true. She will still avail herself of the NHS, taking up a seat in the waiting room. She will still ride the bus and tube with her free pass. Count the number of settled migrant workers in the UK and then allow for up to twice that number in old age pensioners added to the pool of people who are already elbowing each other at the trough for their entitlements. If she needs a hip replacement would you pay for this yourself or expect the NHS to serve its purpose? You might even say yes, but that would put you in a very small minority of your fellow settled migrants.

Here in Brazil, we don't have a problem with this because the state offers nothing.

Once again, please read the full letter. I agree with all that you've said. Now consider all of these points w.r.t. the EEA nationals and the non earning public. Who pays for them and their benefits ? Also, the basis of my argument is that the transition arrangements should have taken care of people in my category.

Lucapooka · Post by **Lucapooka** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:05 pm

That's because of reciprocation (free movement) and comes with the baggage of EU membership. They can go live in your house and you can go live in their house. Of course, if your house is better than their house, has better facilities, you just have to accept that. The problem that the UK has is one of Language. A poor Greek guy on the dole is more likely to speak English than French or German, and will migrate to the UK for betterment on that basis.

Ranjanx · Post by **Ranjanx** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:07 pm

MPH80 wrote:My example was placing the extreme example of your argument that your culture's duties should be accepted by the UK. I'm not equating anything to murder - I am merely providing an example of another culture's duty that would not be permissable in the UK.

The fact that they are your culture's duties places no burden on any other culture to accept them, no matter whether they are at the extreme end or the more friendly end.

Nor can you use that as an argument as to why the rules shouldn't be changed.

M.

I had a very specific point to make in my letter and the generalities do not help the cause. As far as accepting a culture goes, not sure if you follow the news much but do try and read about the challenges faced by care homes, the PMs speeches about promoting family values etc. If the country pronounces me as 'settled' here, I am merely stating that I cannot be settled unless I get my family here. As you mentioned, I am using my choice of protesting the rule. Would be good in some way if people like you supported me, but at the end of the day its my battle and I'm fighting it.

MPH80 · Post by **MPH80** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:22 pm

Ok - so you seem to be accepting that points 1 and 2 in your letter aren't really valid to your argument.

try and read about the challenges faced by care homes, the PMs speeches about promoting family values etc.

Yep - the care homes are in a state, we've had several collapses of companies running them and it's not a good situation. It's one that won't be helped by others bringing elderly relatives over and having to put them in anyway when they find they can't care for them due to the fact the economy is in such a state they both have to work full time just to bring in enough money.

The PM's arguments about family values are about reducing the burden on the state. Less divorces = less time the CSA spends chasing men for support money. Less elderly people in care homes = less care fees.

Your 4th argument is that there should be transitional arrangements for you. Well - there's no need - you are here and settled (regardless of your definition). Under the old rules or the new rules - your parents would be a new application. Transitional arrangements are for where an individual has followed a path expecting it to complete in a certain way - you haven't started that path yet.

5) My request for staying here, working here and then settling here were all based on how much I could earn and contribute to the economy with my skills as a professional.

I severely doubt that. You looked at the UK and thought "There's a country that really needs me - I don't care what it's like or what it does for me - I'm going to help out it's economy"?

I actually suspect you looked at the UK and thought: I can give myself and my family a better life there and I qualify for a visa.

The government may have wanted your income - but you were the one that requested to come here.

As I see it, a win-win situation for both United Kingdom and me

It's been said before elsewhere - but the government doesn't care about you on a macro level. The win-win for the government is to get your income as long as it wants it and not to get any of the associated costs of having someone from the EEA or the UK with all their dependants along with it.

I had a very specific point to make in my letter and the generalities do not help the cause

The problem is - it's the generalities that make the argument. If your culture argument held up generally, then it'd be a good point to make, but it doesn't.

Would be good in some way if people like you supported me

The more people that support a cause, the better. I'm not going to be one of them. Would I like it to be easier to bring relatives here? Yes - it'd make my wife's life a lot easier and it'd keep costs down for us saving on flights. But when I balance that against how many people it'd bring it - I'd rather the situation was harder than easier.

M.

Ranjanx · Post by **Ranjanx** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:33 pm

MPH80 wrote:
5) My request for staying here, working here and then settling here were all based on how much I could earn and contribute to the economy with my skills as a professional.
I severely doubt that. You looked at the UK and thought "There's a country that really needs me - I don't care what it's like or what it does for me - I'm going to help out it's economy"?

I actually suspect you looked at the UK and thought: I can give myself and my family a better life there and I qualify for a visa.

This part tells me I should have made this point clearer in saying that ' the decision on my request for staying here etc etc ' was based on my earning potential

Other than that, I don't have much use for your post again as I only asked for people who supported me to get in touch, not for everyone else to do a critical analysis of my request. I do hope you get a chance to make a better use of your time on this forum by helping them.

newperson · Post by **newperson** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:38 pm

Ranjanx wrote:Would be good in some way if people like you supported me, but at the end of the day its my battle and I'm fighting it.

I'm an immigrant like you. I also have elderly parents. In fact, I'm spending extended leave with my mother right now overseas as she battles an aggressive, terminal cancer.

I took some hard decisions in moving to the UK. Made many sacrifices as well. But I never was under any delusion that I could simply take my parents with me to any country I went to. For me that was part of the pluses and minuses of adult life. I admit, however, that everyone's outlook and priorities are different.

I believe that what you want would be a phenomenal policy disaster for a welfare state like the UK. Totally, completely unworkable. And to be frank, I would do whatever I could--in a polite and civil manner--to prevent it from ever happening.

newperson · Post by **newperson** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:43 pm

Ranjanx wrote:Other than that, I don't have much use for your post again as I only asked for people who supported me to get in touch, not for everyone else to do a critical analysis of my request. I do hope you get a chance to make a better use of your time on this forum by helping them.

To be fair, contrary opinions should be very useful to you. You're now able to identify some of the key points you'll be up against. You might not agree with others' perspectives, but it would be helpful to your initiative to "know your enemy" as it were.

For what it's worth, good luck.

MPH80 · Post by **MPH80** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:54 pm

Ranjanx wrote: Other than that, I don't have much use for your post again as I only asked for people who supported me to get in touch, not for everyone else to do a critical analysis of my request. I do hope you get a chance to make a better use of your time on this forum by helping them.

You posted on an open forum and were bound to get dissenters - I just happen to be one.

I also think that in a roundabout way - I am helping you here. I'm hoping I'm helping you see that the letter you've put together isn't a good argument. You need to find an alternative way to make your case if it's going to win. Alternatively, I'm hoping you're realising that the majority ARE against more immigration and that the policy isn't going to change so you need to reevaluate your options.

To give some credence to the statement about the majority being against immigration - let's look at a poll for the Guardian (the most left newspaper we can get - the most immigration friendly certainly):

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/gallery/20 ... 41&index=4

We find that their result says 66% of people think immigration will damage the recovery and just 24% think it'll help.

That's how the british public see this right now.

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