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Non EU resident Married to UK citizen - working in Ireland.

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Esquiebuie
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Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 10:18 am

Non EU resident Married to UK citizen - working in Ireland.

Post by Esquiebuie » Sun Jun 20, 2004 10:41 am

I am an Australian with a UK Passport through the birth right of my Father. My wife, Children and I plan on travelling to Ireland to work for 6 months or so. The Irish Embassy informed me that this is possible due to my European Union Passport. My wife and children (Australian) are also eligible for Irish resident permts due to my UK citizenship.

My question is:- If we decide to travel to the UK to live and work (after 6 months working and living in Ireland as EU citizens), can I apply for an EU family permit for my family (free of charge). Or do we have to apply for UK Settlement visas (approx 240 Pounds per family member)[[/b]

tvt
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Posts: 526
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2002 1:01 am
Location: London

Post by tvt » Tue Jun 22, 2004 2:32 pm

As you are a UK citizen you cannot use the EEC route. You have to use the UK marriage visa route.
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Kayalami
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Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2002 1:01 am

Post by Kayalami » Tue Jun 22, 2004 3:18 pm

tnavon wrote:As you are a UK citizen you cannot use the EEC route. You have to use the UK marriage visa route.
1. An exception to the above is where a British Citizen returns to settle in the UK after spending a 'long' enough time in a third EU country exercising treaty rights as the original poster intends to do in Ireland. 'Long' has been deemed in case law to be 6+ months. You can in this case apply for your dependents (wife and children) to enter the UK under the principles of EU law i.e. you are treated as if you were an EU national coming to exercise treaty rights in the UK - your dependents would thus be entitled to return to the UK with you - this is known as the Surinder Singh route to family re-union after the case law establishing it.

2. Mr Singh an Indian national was married to a British Citizen. Mr. Singh's wife went to work in Germany and was accompanied by Mr Singh. She then wanted to return to the UK but the UK government insisted that Mr. Singh meet the relevant requirements of the immigration rules to re-enter the U.K. These conditions are more stringent than those under EU law - the courts ruled that Mrs Singh was being prejudiced in relation to other EU nationals entering the UK. Accordingly the courts ruled that British Citizens who had been exercising treaty rights in a third EU member state would have their re-entry or rather that of their non EU dependents based on EU law.

3. Your family will be entitled to an EU Family Permit issued free of charge. Expect the Entry Clearance Officer at the British High Commission, Dublin to 'grill you' on whether you went to Ireland in order to go down the EU route and avoid the more rigorous 'UK immigration rules route' for your spouse/ children to enter the UK for settlement. You need to provide proof of exercising treaty rights in Ireland i.e. payslips and/or tax returns for employment/self employment. You also need proof that you are returning to settle in the UK at the post 6 month stage i.e. have a job offer and accomodation sorted out. Another catch is that if you go the standard 'UK immigration rules' route your wife will get ILR in two years. If you go down the 'EU law' route she will be eligible to apply for ILR after 4 years. During this time she must have been self employed/ employed or otherwise not in receipt of state welfare unless exempt e.g. child benefit.

Best of the 'Irish luck' 8) .

tvt
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Location: London

Post by tvt » Tue Jun 22, 2004 3:40 pm

Kayalami,

The "Singh" route is very hard and time consuming to get.
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Kayalami
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Posts: 1811
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2002 1:01 am

Post by Kayalami » Thu Jun 24, 2004 3:13 pm

tnavon wrote:Kayalami,

The "Singh" route is very hard and time consuming to get.
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Quite the contrary actually - such applications are treated as Tier 1/fast tracked and must be dealt with expeditiously. I have known them granted within 24 hours at British Diplomatic Posts overseas. Unlike applications under the 'immigration rules' the burden of proof where EU law is relied upon is entirely on the Home Office/ ECO where appropriate documentation establishing EU nationality, relationship/dependency and the exercise of treaty rights has been submitted by the applicant. Most people going the Singh route get caught out by the requirement to have exercised treaty rights in a third member state for a 'long' enough period - ECO can't do nothing where payslips for at least 6 months are submitted. However I concur that the hassle of going to Ireland then relocating to the UK after 6 months is only worthwhile if a job is already lined up in Ireland as well as eventually in the UK taking into account potential impacts on the kids education.

Esquiebuie,

Could you update me on how long you have been married and whether you have previously entered the UK with your family for settlement purposes.

Esquiebuie
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Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 10:18 am

Post by Esquiebuie » Thu Jun 24, 2004 11:27 pm

Hello Kayalami,

We originally travelled to the UK 3 years ago - went through all the business for settlement visas - quite expensive and had to return to Australia suddenly 16 weeks after arriving in the UK, due to my dads illness - and he died. Unfortunately we could not afford to return to the uk from australia within the time period of the visa.

So I am trying to avoid paying all this again - 240 Pounds per family member. But it looks like we will have to go through the same process.

I have appealed soon after we returned to extend our visas - but to no avail

We have been married for 10 years this year - Married in Australia

We entered to UK on 26th October 2000

I entered Uk with UK Passport and my Spouse and Children entered with Australian Passports with entry clearance stamps (for settlement ? for 4 years )

We had 6 months to enter the UK and that expired the day we flew out to go to OZ - 26 Feb 2001. - Dad died the day after we returned.

We were in the UK Nearly 4 months to the day

I emailed Canberra (UK high commission) in 2months after returned requesting an extension of the visa- stating we would not be able to afford the airfares to return within the time period - (quite expensive to move a family from oz to the UK) Canberra UK consulate could not extend our visa .

I have contacted Canberra again several times via telephone - $1.25 per minute - stating could not help. I have also emailed home UK Visas who direct me back to Canberra UK Consulate - so frustrating

My wife and I are registered General Nurses - with UK registration.
We are trying to avoid paying for new Visas again (Expense!!)


Thanks

Esquiebuie

Kayalami
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Post by Kayalami » Fri Jun 25, 2004 4:38 pm

I am sorry to hear of the loss of your father - my condolences to you and your family.

In terms of the visa extensions 'probationary (see below) settlement visas' once you enter the UK can only be dealt with by the Home Office and even then its a lengthy process requiring approval at executive level. Canberra would only entertain a fresh application and even then after your current visas have expired.

Under the immigration rules someone who applies to enter or remain in the UK on the basis of marriage or a relationship ‘akin to marriage’ to a person present and settled in the UK e.g. British Citizen is initially given a two year visa – Leave To Remain if an in country application or Leave To Enter if an out of UK application. This ‘probationary’ period was increased from 1 year to 2 years in April 2003. In the last month of the probationary period the person should apply for Indefinite Leave to Remain (Permanent Residence) in the UK on the basis that the relationship has subsisted and will continue to do so.

However at the same time the probation period was extended the rules were also amended such that applicants who have been married to a settled person for at least 4 years and have been living overseas can apply for Indefinite Leave To Enter i.e. there is no probation period. You meet this easy pessy and are likely to get the visa issued on the day – just submit proof of your relationship and evidence of co-habitation over the last 4 years or in your case more i.e.

1. Utility bills – gas, electric, council/property tax, phone
2. Financial documents – bank statements, stocks, insurance policies, payslips, Income Tax Returns
3. Property deeds/ mortgage
4. Wills
5. Car ownership/ leases/
6. Driving licence
7. NHS cards etc

You will also have to demonstrate that you are going back to the UK - job offers will do and that you have enough money to accomodate yourselves without recourse to public funds.

IMHO whilst it may seem a more expensive route initially relative to the EU, the overall cost factor is likely to be higher going the EU law/ Ireland route. You will have to do everything twice– from Oz to Ireland then Ireland to UK and with kids to boot. Ireland has now become shockingly expensive especially Dublin. The immediate grant of ILE for your wife/ kids outweighs any benefits of the EU route. There is a chronic shortage of nurses in the UK so you can cherry pick where you want to work. Check out the NHS websites as well as those of nursing recruitment agencies – they may want you desperately enough to pay visa fees and airfares.

The added advantage of immediate ILE and subsequent UK entry is that your wife can apply for naturalisation as a British Citizen after residing in the UK for three years with the kids included as dependents - an excursion to Ireland lengthens their qualifying time. Also note that you may stay outside the UK for not more than two years without losing Permanent Residence status - however consistently departing and re-entering the UK at around the 2 year mark is risky. This means that you do not have to immediatley travel and may focus on lining a job up in the UK whilst still in Oz.

Ultimatley the choice of whether to go the 'UK law' or 'EU law' route is yours but I hope you are now better informed. I hope things work out for you in the end.

Best of luck.

Esquiebuie
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Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 10:18 am

Post by Esquiebuie » Sat Jun 26, 2004 1:29 am

Hello Kayalami,

Thankyou for your most detailed reply, and we will go down the UK entry route.

I have found your "Immigration board" most informing!

Cheers,

Esquiebuie

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