ILR & TRAFFIC OFFENCE

Gagan1986 · Post by **Gagan1986** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:20 pm

sarvar wrote:sorry to hear about your case but as you said it depends on case worker.

I also got 3 points on my license along with £60 fine for speeding. I'm willing to show it in the form, however section 7.2 clearly say not to include FPN for speeding.
And section 7.4 for is not related with traffic offence. So where i should mention that I've got 3 FPN for speeding.
your early response would be highly appreciated, as i've got appointment at PEO in Croydon on 21/2.
Many Thanks.

You don't need to mention any FPN! Only fines and convictions through court

alanwong · Post by **alanwong** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:21 pm

Cherryberry800 wrote:The relevant paragraph is paragraph 322 (IC)(IV) of the immigration rules:

(1C) where the person is seeking indefinite leave to enter or remain:
(i) they have been convicted of an offence for which they have been sentenced to imprisonment for at least 4 years; or
(ii) they have been convicted of an offence for which they have been sentenced to imprisonment for at least 12 months but less than 4 years, unless a period of 15 years has passed since the end of the sentence; or
(iii) they have been convicted of an offence for which they have been sentenced to imprisonment for less than 12 months, unless a period of 7 years has passed since the end of the sentence; or
(iv) they have, within the 24 months preceding the date of the application, been convicted of or admitted an offence for which they have received a non-custodial sentence or other out of court disposal that is recorded on their criminal record.

Thats the paragraph from Immigration rules and point number is more connected with my case but keeping in mind I didnt get any non custodial sentence or any out of court disposal and nothing is been recorded on my CRB.

Then how come that immigration officer refused my application without properly looking at it and gave his verdict by asking his seniors in a matter of one mintue and thats it.

Its all very confusing and frustating, dont know what to do?

Shall I take a risk by sending it by post or ring the court first and ask them if it was a fixed penalty offence?

Or Apply for another enhanced CRB and SAC report?

Hi,Cherryberry800, I am sorry for your situation.
The following is taken from page 51 of
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary

A fine is considered to be a non-custodial sentence which forms part of the person’s criminal
record. If a person has a fine (regardless of the size and/or amount they were fined) within
the relevant timeframe, you must:
 refuse the application (where mandatory), or
 consider refusing the application (where discretionary).

JohnM · Post by **JohnM** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:53 am

But there are many examples on this forum when people got ILR with traffic offence. So it should depend on nature of the offence.

There is a guidance for good character for British citizenship applications.

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary

Look at page of about Recklessness. Page 4 (at the end).

Now, I wonder, do they apply the same rules to ILR? If they do and they decided that CU20 constitutes recklessness, then it explains it.

Can any guru please comment, does the same check of good character applies for ILR which is described in the link or do they apply stricter rules for ILR.

They must probably apply the same recklessness rule for ILR because many people with other traffic offences got ILR. I checked link for case worker ground for refusal document which alanwong gave and did not find anything about recklessness there. In fact it does not say anything about driving offences except disqualification.

alanwong · Post by **alanwong** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:30 am

Even for a fine, there is still some flexibility:
A fine is considered to be a non-custodial sentence which forms part of the person’s criminal
record. If a person has a fine (regardless of the size and/or amount they were fined) within
the relevant timeframe, you must:
 refuse the application (where mandatory), or
 consider refusing the application (where discretionary).

where mandatory or discretionary? who decides this?
Is it up to caseworkers? If so, then ...

As all of us may think that a simple caution which is within 24 months preceding to ilr application date will lead to mandatory refusal according immigration rule 322:1C. However I have already learned that people in this situation got their ILR in this month.

ilr_appln · Post by **ilr_appln** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:17 am

Please see my understanding below.

'Fine' issued by a court is considered as non-custodial sentence.

Fixed Penalty Notices(FPN) is not same as 'Fine'.

UKBA considers the FPN issued by court as a conviction. However the caseworker may choose to ignore some FPN based on the nature of the offence.

Drink driving, Mobile use(?), Reckless driving, etc are typically considered as serious offences.

No need to declare an FPN in Set(o) form unless it is issued by court. I think the above mentioned traffic offences are issued by court. Minor FPNs are issued by the Police officer itself and typically the officer will indicate whether it will appear in the Criminal Records.

No need to declare PCN(Penalty Charge Notice) unless it issued by a court or issued under UK immigration acts.

Traffic fines do not come under immigration acts, it comes under some Road Traffice Acts.

Please note that these are my understanding and interpretation.

JohnM · Post by **JohnM** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:35 am

Yes, I think you are very close to the truth.

They must explain it much more clearly.

They also added to the confusion with the new rules when they say that it affects only when it created criminal record. It looks like it's not always the case. So if it was not recklessness and no record then it should be ok, if it was recklessness, even without record, then it may not be ok.

Sushdmehta wrote about new rules and criminal record here, he is an expert, but still I think maybe he forgot about recklessness they also look for. http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=120784

ssidd · Post by **ssidd** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:00 pm

JohnM wrote:Yes, I think you are very close to the truth.

They must explain it much more clearly.

They also added to the confusion with the new rules when they say that it affects only when it created criminal record. It looks like it's not always the case. So if it was not recklessness and no record then it should be ok, if it was recklessness, even without record, then it may not be ok.

Sushdmehta wrote about new rules and criminal record here, he is an expert, but still I think maybe he forgot about recklessness they also look for. http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=120784

It means now rule of thumb is
'' If you get court fine (Not FPN) for any traffic offence whether it is recorded or not you have to wait 24 months''

Am i right in my interpretetion?

JohnM · Post by **JohnM** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:35 pm

I don't think so. Many people got ILR with court fine and it also depends on what they treat as court issued FPN. So I think that the main ground for refusal for traffic offences is recklessness. So if you are fined for shoplifting then it's definitely 24 months wait, if it's traffic offence it should be about recklessness. But I would be glad if any guru could clarify it.

ssidd · Post by **ssidd** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:04 pm

JohnM wrote:I don't think so. Many people got ILR with court fine and it also depends on what they treat as court issued FPN. So I think that the main ground for refusal for traffic offences is recklessness. So if you are fined for shoplifting then it's definitely 24 months wait, if it's traffic offence it should be about recklessness. But I would be glad if any guru could clarify it.

''Driving without due care and attention and Failure to Report'' will come under Recklessness??

JohnM · Post by **JohnM** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:47 pm

Failure to report may be an issue. But I'm not sure myself. Is it AC code?

That why I asked about recklessness but no expert confirmed so far.

ssidd · Post by **ssidd** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:03 pm

JohnM wrote:Failure to report may be an issue. But I'm not sure myself. Is it AC code?

That why I asked about recklessness but no expert confirmed so far.

Yes it is AC 20.

salmankh4n · Post by **salmankh4n** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:07 pm

Cherryberry800 wrote:MY PEO EXPERIENCE IN DETAIL

I went for my ILR PEO appointment yesterday on 22/01/2013 to Birmingham Solihull. At the initial checks before paying for the fee my application is been refused as I have three penalty points on my licence sentenced by court last year on 15/05/2012 and fined £570 offence code CU20 as I was involved in an accident with a motorbike and forgot to attend the court date and judge made a decision in my absence.

The Immigration officer check my passports and visas first and writing down all the details against the points claimed as soon as he turned to the conviction page of the application form he asked that is this a fixed penalty or given by court

I told him honestly that its been given by court, he then went back to ask his colleagues and came back just after a one minute not more then that and told me that I need to wait for two years until the conviction become spent because if I apply for ILR now its most likely that it will be rejected.

I have been told by him that I can still apply for the TIER 1 extension.

I need urgent help and guidance in this regard and is there any possibility for me to still get an ILR while having these points on my licence.

Keeping in mind that I have three penalty points on my licence sentenced by court last year on 15/05/2012 and fined £570 offence code CU20.

Date of Offence 20/03/2011

Date of Conviction 04/11/2011

Date of Sentence 15/05/2012

Offence Code: CU 20

I had a enhanced CRB done in August last year which is all clear and the date of sentence was 3 months before my CRB check so logically if theres anything wrong then it should have shown in the enhanced CRB.

I have seen people who have done every wrong thing under the sun and still get their ILR accepted.

Kindly please advice the appropriate action to be taken asap as my visa is expiring on 08/02/2013.

Hi Cherryberry800,

Trust me you will get your ILR if you go through with your application.
There is nothing on your CRB which means you do not have any conviction.

you said that the case worker told you that if you go ahead then your application MIGHT get rejected. Which says that the caseworker was not sure.

But I am certain that when he does his checks, he wont find any convictions on your name as was the case with your CRB. If there is nothing on CRB then there is no conviction.

Don't waste your time and money on Tier1 extension

Cherryberry800 · Post by **Cherryberry800** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:22 am

Morning Guys

Many thanks for your input and motivation, really appreciate it.

I have met few solicitors and barristers for last few days and everyone said to play it safe while sending application by post for Tier 1 extension as theres new law coming out soon in feburary or March in regards to duration of driving convictions that should be reduced to one year instead of 2 years for ILR applicants.

But I am still doubtfull about that as its UKBA and anything can happen there what if theres a new rule came out again which is more strict, then what?

I have two enhanced CRB's done last year one in may and one is august and both of them done by Security Industry Authority which is directly linked to UKBA

I work in Security Industry and my crbs are All clear nothing is been recorded, keeping in mind that my date of sentence was 15/05/2012 and my crbs are carried out after this date.

So if there was any issue then it should have reflect in my crbs.

Secondly I am considering to take a big risk and chance to send my ILR application by post my wife is my dependent as well so will send it by post and hopefully by the time the UKBA will go through my application which is more likely four to six months time minimum the law will be changed by then hopefully. Thats my assumption in my case dont take it as a verdict please.

Please I need your input and comments on this post asap and let me know if i will go ahead by sending my ILR application by post or not, Its a risky situation but I am willing to take this risk as I had enough of this visa extensions and all that crap.

So Kindly do reply honestly your efforts and inputs will be highly appreciated.

Thanks

ssidd · Post by **ssidd** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:32 am

Cherryberry800 wrote:Morning Guys

Many thanks for your input and motivation, really appreciate it.

I have met few solicitors and barristers for last few days and everyone said to play it safe while sending application by post for Tier 1 extension as theres new law coming out soon in feburary or March in regards to duration of driving convictions that should be reduced to one year instead of 2 years for ILR applicants.

But I am still doubtfull about that as its UKBA and anything can happen there what if theres a new rule came out again which is more strict, then what?

I have two enhanced CRB's done last year one in may and one is august and both of them done by Security Industry Authority which is directly linked to UKBA

I work in Security Industry and my crbs are All clear nothing is been recorded, keeping in mind that my date of sentence was 15/05/2012 and my crbs are carried out after this date.

So if there was any issue then it should have reflect in my crbs.

Secondly I am considering to take a big risk and chance to send my ILR application by post my wife is my dependent as well so will send it by post and hopefully by the time the UKBA will go through my application which is more likely four to six months time minimum the law will be changed by then hopefully. Thats my assumption in my case dont take it as a verdict please.

Please I need your input and comments on this post asap and let me know if i will go ahead by sending my ILR application by post or not, Its a risky situation but I am willing to take this risk as I had enough of this visa extensions and all that crap.

So Kindly do reply honestly your efforts and inputs will be highly appreciated.

Thanks

Hi Bro,
The law which is suppose to be implemented is LASPO 2012 and it will reduce any court conviction to 12 month from date of conviction that is the reason UKBA have changed their rules and put a bar of 24 months for ILR AND 36 months for Naturalisation...that is my understanding.
Secondly, it is not a good idea to send ILR by post, if you want to take risk go to PEO with your latest CRB and get the instant decision and in worst case scenerio you have the chance to apply for extension by post.

I am in the same boat.

SIDD

Cherryberry800 · Post by **Cherryberry800** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:38 am

Thanks for your input SIDD

If you have read my earlier posts then you should know that I have already been to PEO office on 22/01/2013 and they refused to take the application because of these points so I am just thinking to take a risk by sending it by post.

If I apply for ILR I can have the time to apply again for Tier 1 extension if my ILR get rejected but if my TIER 1 extension rejected then I have to book a flight back home or appeal against it.

So keep these in points in front of you....please advice.

ssidd · Post by **ssidd** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:09 pm

Cherryberry800 wrote:Thanks for your input SIDD

If you have read my earlier posts then you should know that I have already been to PEO office on 22/01/2013 and they refused to take the application because of these points so I am just thinking to take a risk by sending it by post.

If I apply for ILR I can have the time to apply again for Tier 1 extension if my ILR get rejected but if my TIER 1 extension rejected then I have to book a flight back home or appeal against it.

So keep these in points in front of you....please advice.

If your ILR is rejected then they allow you for appeal but if your visa is not valid then they will not allow you for extension ( again my understanding). I have contacted one of the OISC and they suggest me that you can apply for extension without any issue rather than you manage points to qualify.

Sidd

Cherryberry800 · Post by **Cherryberry800** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:31 pm

MY ILR APPLICATION IS NOT REJECTED, ITS BEEN REFUSED BEFORE SUBMISSION AT THE PRE-CHECKS BEFORE PAYING FOR THE FEE

I DONT KNOW IF YOU HAVE BEEN TO PEO BIRMINGHAM EVER BUT THAT'S HOW THEY DEAL WITH CANDIDATES OVER THERE.

READ MY FULL PEO EXPERIENCE ABOVE AS IT WILL HELP YOU CLARIFY AND UNDERSTAND THE SITUATION I AM IN.

elf_fm · Post by **elf_fm** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:55 pm

there is another case here with some good news
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... &view=next

it might be a good idea to try other PEO place

Cherryberry800 wrote:MY ILR APPLICATION IS NOT REJECTED, ITS BEEN REFUSED BEFORE SUBMISSION AT THE PRE-CHECKS BEFORE PAYING FOR THE FEE

I DONT KNOW IF YOU HAVE BEEN TO PEO BIRMINGHAM EVER BUT THAT'S HOW THEY DEAL WITH CANDIDATES OVER THERE.

READ MY FULL PEO EXPERIENCE ABOVE AS IT WILL HELP YOU CLARIFY AND UNDERSTAND THE SITUATION I AM IN.

DrFixit · Post by **DrFixit** » Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:58 pm

Hello Cherryberry800, any update on your case? did you send your documents? please provide updates.

ssidd · Post by **ssidd** » Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:15 pm

Hi,

Any updates Cherry Berry? Any one who got ILR with court fine in last 24 months...Plz update your experience here....Definitiely It would be worthwhile for lots of us.

Your help will be much appreciated.

sthan · Post by **sthan** » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:49 pm

Hi,

did any one got ILR with unspent conviction. We had our ILR on 13th and my husband has unusual situation.

He was cought my police two times in 2010 october and in 2011 may. He was driving with international licence while holding uk provisional licence and police gave FPN both times with 60 pounds fine (LC20 offence code).

He has 3 points in his counter part given in 2011 but when he called up the DVLA they said my husband has got 3 points in 2010 and not in 2011 but the counter part has points given in 2011.

So We are in confusion whether to mention it or not?Can any one please advice on this as we have ILR on 13th?

By the way i am the main applicant and my husband is dependent.

Shall we proceed for ILR or should we wait for some time?

Many thanks in advance,

Sri

stokbrig · Post by **stokbrig** » Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:20 pm

sthan wrote:Hi,

did any one got ILR with unspent conviction. We had our ILR on 13th and my husband has unusual situation.

He was cought my police two times in 2010 october and in 2011 may. He was driving with international licence while holding uk provisional licence and police gave FPN both times with 60 pounds fine (LC20 offence code).

He has 3 points in his counter part given in 2011 but when he called up the DVLA they said my husband has got 3 points in 2010 and not in 2011 but the counter part has points given in 2011.

So We are in confusion whether to mention it or not?Can any one please advice on this as we have ILR on 13th?

By the way i am the main applicant and my husband is dependent.

Shall we proceed for ILR or should we wait for some time?

Many thanks in advance,

Sri

1-If you apply after May 2013 you will be out of the ''danger zone''May 11-May 13

2-I was wondering if your application is refused, both of you will be refused or only your husband ?

Gagan1986 · Post by **Gagan1986** » Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:28 pm

sthan wrote:Hi,

did any one got ILR with unspent conviction. We had our ILR on 13th and my husband has unusual situation.

He was cought my police two times in 2010 october and in 2011 may. He was driving with international licence while holding uk provisional licence and police gave FPN both times with 60 pounds fine (LC20 offence code).

He has 3 points in his counter part given in 2011 but when he called up the DVLA they said my husband has got 3 points in 2010 and not in 2011 but the counter part has points given in 2011.

So We are in confusion whether to mention it or not?Can any one please advice on this as we have ILR on 13th?

By the way i am the main applicant and my husband is dependent.

Shall we proceed for ILR or should we wait for some time?

Many thanks in advance,

Sri

Would defo recommend applying after May'13 as 24 months would have lapsed by then

sthan · Post by **sthan** » Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:10 pm

Thanks very much for your replies.

If they reject the application will they reject both applications or will they still process main applicant?

Thanks,
sri

elf_fm · Post by **elf_fm** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:45 pm

previous link is wrong, the following link has good news

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=121320

elf_fm wrote:there is another case here with some good news
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... &view=next

it might be a good idea to try other PEO place

Cherryberry800 wrote:MY ILR APPLICATION IS NOT REJECTED, ITS BEEN REFUSED BEFORE SUBMISSION AT THE PRE-CHECKS BEFORE PAYING FOR THE FEE

I DONT KNOW IF YOU HAVE BEEN TO PEO BIRMINGHAM EVER BUT THAT'S HOW THEY DEAL WITH CANDIDATES OVER THERE.

READ MY FULL PEO EXPERIENCE ABOVE AS IT WILL HELP YOU CLARIFY AND UNDERSTAND THE SITUATION I AM IN.

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