4EUFam and EU wide travel - the complete guide

asrpb wrote:Hi All,

Just received a very Positive reply from Portuguese Embassy (Dublin). Thought I should update this thread for all of you in the same boat.

From: José Pinto [mailto:jose.pinto@dublin.dgaccp.pt]
Sent: 14 July 2010 16:58
To: XYZ
Subject: Visiting Algarve/Albufeira for 1 week holiday

Dear Sir,

With reference to your e-mail of today, since you are holding a Stamp 4EUFam GNIB residence card and your EU spouse is accompanying you to Portugal, you do not need to obtain a Schengen Visa. Kindly make sure that you carry your original marriage certificate and the GNIB card. In case you intend travelling alone, then you need to obtain a visa and the information is available on our web site http://www.embassyportugal.ie

Thanks and regards,
José do Carmo Pinto
Chancellor
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
De: XYZ@abc.ie
Enviada: quarta-feira, 14 de Julho de 2010 14:18
Para: embport@dublin.dgaccp.pt
Assunto: Visiting Algarve/Albufeira for 1 week holiday

Dear Sir/Madam,
I'm Non-EU National living and working in Ireland for last 8-9 years. I'm planning to visit Algarve/Albufeira for holidays (1 week) with my Wife and Son.
I'm holding Stamp4EUFam as my wife is an EU National.
I would like to know, if I need a Tourist visa to visit Portugal ? If yes, what document document do I require for it ?
Regards,
XYZ

It's not that positive. Marriage cert or residence card required - not both.

My husband is from Bangladesh and holds stamp4eufam card - myself Polish. Coming back from holiday in Poland at Dublin airport immigration officer gave us almost 10min lecture how hard is in Ireland now because of all fake marriages of Pakistani/Bangladeshi citizents with Polish girls. Than pointed that we should stay and live in Poland instead of taking irish jobs! After that he said that he's hoping that we are not upset. That's just ridiculous and not acceptable!
How is your experience about it? Can they treat us like that?

achosa wrote:My husband is from Bangladesh and holds stamp4eufam card - myself Polish. Coming back from holiday in Poland at Dublin airport immigration officer gave us almost 10min lecture how hard is in Ireland now because of all fake marriages of Pakistani/Bangladeshi citizents with Polish girls. Than pointed that we should stay and live in Poland instead of taking irish jobs! After that he said that he's hoping that we are not upset. That's just ridiculous and not acceptable!
How is your experience about it? Can they treat us like that?

Did you make a complaint?

Was your husband's passport stamped?

Hi asrpb,

thanks a lot for this valuable update.

Seems like the Portugese embassy learned a lot lately

Rgds, Christian

Ben wrote: Did you make a complaint?

No. We were too tired

Ben wrote:Was your husband's passport stamped?

Nope. Officer just checked in computer his gnib card and passport but didnt stamp.
He got a stamp few monthts ago though when we were coming back from Bangladesh.

Ben wrote:
Was your husband's passport stamped?

Nope. Officer just checked in computer his gnib card and passport but didnt stamp.
He got a stamp few monthts ago though when we were coming back from Bangladesh

I am an EU national, but with a pre-EU passport, and my passport was stamped in spain.... and you are complaining about stamping of non-Eu passports of spouses of EU nationals...

agniukas wrote:I am an EU national, but with a pre-EU passport, and my passport was stamped in spain.... and you are complaining about stamping of non-Eu passports of spouses of EU nationals...

I guess Ben´s remark is not a "complaint" (sorry if I´m wrong, Ben), I guess it just serves to demonstrate that the GNIB-officials at the border mostly have no clue about the laws under which they operate.

Rather they just do what they feel like, which mostly doesn´t reflect the intended purpose of the law, nor does it show professionalism which you could expect from border-guards.

Your experience (having a pre-EU passport stamped, just because "EU" isn´t written on it) shows the same: They don´t even seem to know which country is in the EU - unless it´s written on the passport.

Hi ca.funke and others.

Any update on what countries accept stamp 4EUFAM?

Plan to go on holidays with my partner next year, when he will be in possession of stamp 4EUFAM and wondering what choices of countries do we have?

Any replies much appreciated

achosa wrote:My husband is from Bangladesh and holds stamp4eufam card - myself Polish. Coming back from holiday in Poland at Dublin airport immigration officer gave us almost 10min lecture how hard is in Ireland now because of all fake marriages of Pakistani/Bangladeshi citizents with Polish girls. Than pointed that we should stay and live in Poland instead of taking irish jobs! After that he said that he's hoping that we are not upset. That's just ridiculous and not acceptable!
How is your experience about it? Can they treat us like that?

Yeah and I am santa claus. Spoofer.

Hey guys,

amazing work on this I have to say!

Just wondering - has anyone ever inquired the embassies about the de-facto relationship based EUFam card? So many replies state that one needs to present a valid marriage certificate.. however, legally (if that matters), it is also possible to obtain this card without being married or related, i.e. through the 2+ year de facto relationship..

I assume explaining this to the officials of the border control will be a hopeless cause.. but maybe you have any ideas?

Cheers

Hi arski,

I hope your question is: "I have the 4EUFam card based on (whatever except marriage), and would like to travel with it". Otherwise - sorry!

I hope the answer is as easy as I think:

Although it makes it easier, you´re legally not obliged to have the marriage-certificate with you:

2004/38/EC, Article 5 Section 2 wrote:Family members who are not nationals of a Member State
shall only be required to have an entry visa in accordance with
Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with
national law. For the purposes of this Directive, possession of
the valid residence card referred to in Article 10 shall exempt
such family members from the visa requirement.

As a summary, once you have the 4EUFam card, you should be safe!

Another way to look at it:

You can have "the "bunch" of papers (passports, marriage cert, backup documents, joint bank account, photos etc...) with you. This will always qualify you. If needs be, the border official is allowed to check "the bunch" and establish himself that you´re entitled.

The only thing 4EUFam essentially does is: Combine "the bunch" into a card that implies "entitlement checked and certified".

Once you have this certification (=4EUFam) you can´t be obliged to carry "the bunch" with you anymore.

Hope that´s clear?

Thx & rgds, Christian

Hey Christian,

Thanks a lot for your reply. Yes, my question was indeed that - my girlfriend has a EUFam card (I'm a EU national) that she got through the de facto thing..

Now I understand that in a perfect world your answer would clearly be correct, but, as seen from many previous emails, most embassies seem to require a marriage certificate present, and even if they perhaps legally shouldn't or couldn't require it.. I have very big concerns that the border officials would hardly know all the details and would cause a lot of problems for her to get into a EU country..

So that's why I'm asking, because most summaries in this thread seem to indicate that the officials want (legally or not) to see the marriage certificate with the EUFam card..

Cheers

arski wrote:...most embassies seem to require a marriage certificate...

What embassies?

Once you have the 4EUFam, you don´t need to go to any embassy... Just travel.

Or did you mean that they advise to take it? That´s just backup "nice to have" but not necessary.

Just take the 4EUFam, both passports and travel.

In reality I´d also take a copy of 2004/38/EC with me, just to make sure...

...and, depending on how worried you are that you´ll be sent back on the same plane, just linger before the passport-check (coffee or sthg) until the plane is gone... This will buy you discussion time, in the worst case scenario. (I successfully did this in Düsseldorf )

Happy travels...

Hey again,

what I was referring to by "embassies" were the answers obtained by the experiment performed throughout this post, e.g. as in http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... 708#392708 - as you can see they state that a marriage certificate is required (and this is the case for many many other countries as well). Not quite sure why you seem to be confused by my questions, they're a direct follow up to this whole thread :(

Either way I understand that I shouldn't be required anything other than the GNIB card, but the main word there is "shouldn't".. so I was just wondering if anybody has asked the embassies about people who have the EUFam card, but are not married.

Cheers

Hi CA.FUNKE, BEN, Directive/2004/38/EC et al... just to refresh : I am an Indian living with my Irish wife and Irish son in Ireland. I just wrote to the Dutch embassy in Dublin asking whether I can travel to Amsterdam without a visa. The answer was in the -ve, they quoted EU Directive 2004/38/EC stating that this is only for EEA nationals excersising their treaty rights in a EU country which is not a country of their origin. Is that right - I couldn't find those words anywhere.
thanks

Xanadu wrote:Hi CA.FUNKE, BEN, Directive/2004/38/EC et al... just to refresh : I am an Indian living with my Irish wife and Irish son in Ireland. I just wrote to the Dutch embassy in Dublin asking whether I can travel to Amsterdam without a visa. The answer was in the -ve, they quoted EU Directive 2004/38/EC stating that this is only for EEA nationals excersising their treaty rights in a EU country which is not a country of their origin. Is that right - I couldn't find those words anywhere.
thanks

The family members of EU citizens, or Irish citizens who have returned to Ireland after working in another EU state obtain a 4EUfam card


This card exempts the holder from all other EU visas and Irish re-entry visa.

But if you are the family member of an Irish Citizen and you only
have a stamp-4 "spouse of Irish Citizen" resident permit in your passport
Then you need both Schengen visa and a second Irish visa, even you are
already Irish resident with a resident permit.

I know its crazy, but such is Ireland and its Justice and Equality.

Has anyone any experience traveling to small principalities/territories like Isle of Man, Guernsey, Jersey with Stamp4 EU fam? Please update thread if you have,
Thanks,

Isle of Man (I have loved there for a while) - you don't need any visit visa if you are residing in the common economic area of Ireland, NI, Britain... so I can travel with just my STAMP4, there is no immigration at the airport as all flights are 'domestic'. The other places the entry clearance is the same as UK - i.e., EUFam should work (I need a UK visit or EEA FP to visit Jersey). Hope that helps

Thanks acme4242 - so no quick last minute trips over long weekends to the continent for the family then
I suppose getting a visa wouldnt be such a hassle, but the fact that you have to go in person (and some of them need appointments like Spain) to Dublin during a working makes it a bit tricky logistically for us as we live far away from Dublin.

Does anybody have any idea if any of the EU countries accept visa applications by post ?

Cheers

Read here that for Schengen visas there are bio-metrics requirements in place

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_Information_System

Hi everybody,

does anybody have experience travelling with a Stamp4 EUFam card to an EU country but transiting at a French airport?

We're going to Germany returning from a trip to Asia, and we'll have to change planes in Paris Airport which will thus be the point were we enter the Schengen area. I'm a German citizen, my wife is Burmese but holds an Irish Stamp 4 EUFam card.

The German Embassy has confirmed: no visa required. And, very friendly, provided us with an official letter with their letterhead, confirming this in English, refering to the EU directive and applicable laws.
Having read about France's problematic position I enquirea at the french Embassy quoting in detail the German letter. The French visa officer replied:
"France doesn't recognize the "Convention 2004" your wife still needs a visa in order to travel to France or through France, even if you plan to travel with her. Due to her nationality the process will take from 2 to 3 weeks."

I guess the guy is simply incompetent - but how are such cases handled by the French imigration? Any experiences?

The Airline (Air France/Sky Team) says that in this specific constellation no visa is required for transit in Paris if the traveller is holding a

"family member residence permit issued by Ireland (Rep. of) to a family member of an EEA national, provided travelling with or travelling to join the EEA national or national of Switzerland"

This is also the information given to all check-in agents worldwide, so the problem will definitely only occur in Paris...

Hi GAWN,

welcome to the forum

GAWN wrote:Hi everybody,

does anybody have experience travelling with a Stamp4 EUFam card to an EU country but transiting at a French airport?

Not through an airport, but arriving by boat in Cherbourg:
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... 693#236693

GAWN wrote:We're going to Germany returning from a trip to Asia, and we'll have to change planes in Paris Airport which will thus be the point were we enter the Schengen area.

Where you go to doesn´t matter in detail. What matters is -as you say- that you enter the Schengen-zone, and this you do in France.

GAWN wrote:I'm a German citizen, my wife is Burmese but holds an Irish Stamp 4 EUFam card.

You´re allowed to enter all of the EU (as per this very thread):
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=30020

GAWN wrote:The German Embassy has confirmed: no visa required. And, very friendly, provided us with an official letter with their letterhead, confirming this in English, refering to the EU directive and applicable laws.

I wish I would have had only one positive encounter with German embassies. Very nice!

GAWN wrote:Having read about France's problematic position I enquirea at the french Embassy quoting in detail the German letter. The French visa officer replied:
"France doesn't recognize the "Convention 2004" your wife still needs a visa in order to travel to France or through France, even if you plan to travel with her. Due to her nationality the process will take from 2 to 3 weeks."

I guess the guy is simply incompetent - but how are such cases handled by the French imigration? Any experiences?

Some idiot who has no idea about the law under which he has to work. Calling the "Directive" a "Convention" shows that he has no clue. Just ignore the guy, not worth fighting against incompetence.

GAWN wrote:The Airline (Air France/Sky Team) says that in this specific constellation no visa is required for transit in Paris if the traveller is holding a

"family member residence permit issued by Ireland (Rep. of) to a family member of an EEA national, provided travelling with or travelling to join the EEA national or national of Switzerland"

This is also the information given to all check-in agents worldwide, so the problem will definitely only occur in Paris...

That´s perfect, because at least you won´t be denied boarding.

Once in Paris you will have anough time to ask for superior(s) and their superiors, until you end up with someone competent who will overrule any immigration-guy who may want to deny you entry...

Make sure to take as many of the papers of this >>practical guide<< as you can!

Good luck

Thanks, that's encouraging. By the way, from an airline guy I got the clue where to get the information the check-in people base their decision on - TIMATIC:

Timatic is the database containing cross border passenger documentation requirements. It is used by Stupid to determine whether a passenger can be carried, as well as by Stupid and travel agents to provide this information to travellers at the time of booking. This is critical for Stupid due to fines levied by immigration authorities every time a passenger is carried who does not have the correct travel documentation.

You can access it through the web-pages of many Stupid, such as here:

http://www.skyteam.com/en/your-trip/Ser ... nd-Health/
or here:
http://www.staralliance.com/de/services ... nd-health/

enter your data and print out the written confirmation that they can carry you/your family member without a visa... that should convince the least informed check-in agent.

Best wishes...

GAWN wrote:...TIMATIC...

Doesn´t always give the -legally- correct answer.

For Schengen it is correct, in most cases (actually I can´t find a wrong info right now, maybe it´s all correct now ).

>>For the UK<< it´s giving the UK-interpretation that family-members are not exempt (by not mentioning anything about it).

>>For Ireland<< it just recently changed, and ""family member" residence permit issued by (member state)" are now mentioned.

For >>your case<< it is correctly quoting, that you may travel without visa.

So I think you´ll manage to arrive...

Please do provide feedback about how it went

Have a safe trip

Dear Mr ca.funke,
I am amazed by the effort you put in 2008 into explaining to EU embassies that the spouse of EU( EEA??) citizen does not need a visa to travel to an EU country , especially if she is traveling with her husband .

I have been searching the web and i only found answers in your previous post dated 2008 .

I am married to EU citizen from Lithuania and we have a child .We live in the UK and i hold EEA family permit/card issued by UK home office .

Until today , i am still suffering from the same problem of visas especially with the new laws that came into place in some EU countries if not all , which states that if you want to apply for Schengen visa , your passport must not be more than 10 years old , even if it is still valid . SOme countries , renew the same passport rather than issuing new one .

I just wanted to know if anything has changes with the awarness that people like us do not need visa or it is still the same .

Which countries has finally applied this law of visa free for EU/EEA spouses.

Finally , Is EU and EEA law the same regarding this VISA matter ?

Kind regards