cheapes-quickest self suffiency resident card in EU

jul1 wrote:We will try the ferry only when my wife will have the local RC, im afraid at port if she is declined they will stamp "declined" in the passport, in case we decide go for article 10 card i definitely dont want to go with that stamp.

Who should issue this stamp?
The ferry company is not allowed to do so.

jul1 wrote: I asked some person who are not themselves immigration officers but for years helping the local immigrants in Ireland and they said they are not sure if we enter Ireland via UK would be a good idea, either we get a family permit or just the EEA dependent stamp at Calais, cause there would be no stamp in Ireland...
The only fully legal way to Ireland for a non-EU is either a visa or an article 10 RC, and we all know now that EU treaty rights visa will never be processed.

How often shall I post this link to the judgement of the irish high court?
http://courts.ie/Judgments.nsf/09859e7a ... b8005ae84f

See section 5.
Do you think the irish high court is stupid?

mgb wrote:Technically a family member of a eu citizen cannot overstay a visa.

Eu directive 2004/38 article 5 section 2
Family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an
entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national law.

Entry means for crossing the border. The stay itself is covered from article 6 section 2.

So if me and my wife turn up at a French border and say she my wife here's the marriage certificate and we want to travel to Ireland under artical 10 EUTR will they just let us board the ferry?

Sincejune wrote:

mgb wrote:Technically a family member of a eu citizen cannot overstay a visa.

Eu directive 2004/38 article 5 section 2
Family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an
entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national law.

Entry means for crossing the border. The stay itself is covered from article 6 section 2.

So if me and my wife turn up at a French border and say she my wife here's the marriage certificate and we want to travel to Ireland under artical 10 EUTR will they just let us board the ferry?

If the checkin staff are trained and understand the Directive they should.

There seems an undue amount of fear and paranoia here; based on what you have said, you are not attempting anything illegal or underhand.

There is no secret back door that is unguarded and lets you slip into CTA.
Travelling to Eire or UK by ferry under the protection of the free movement Directive is perfectly above board (pun not intended) and legal;
(whether it works out depends on whether you qualify as well as the calibre of the border/ferry staff).

noajthan wrote:

Sincejune wrote:

mgb wrote:Technically a family member of a eu citizen cannot overstay a visa.

Eu directive 2004/38 article 5 section 2
Family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an
entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national law.

Entry means for crossing the border. The stay itself is covered from article 6 section 2.

So if me and my wife turn up at a French border and say she my wife here's the marriage certificate and we want to travel to Ireland under artical 10 EUTR will they just let us board the ferry?

If the checkin staff are trained and understand the Directive they should.

There seems an undue amount of fear and paranoia here; based on what you have said, you are not attempting anything illegal or underhand.

There is no secret back door that is unguarded and lets you slip into CTA.
Travelling to Eire or UK by ferry under the protection of the free movement Directive is perfectly above board (pun not intended) and legal;
(whether it works out depends on whether you qualify as well as the calibre of the border/ferry staff).

Ok thank you. As u have said there is a big amount of fear and paranoia with me.

I will keep this option open and try to book a ferry and check the great limits of EU free movement law.

Do I have to keep the documents of artical 10 EUTR in French or just English will be fine?

mgb wrote:Technically a family member of a eu citizen cannot overstay a visa.

Eu directive 2004/38 article 5 section 2
Family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an
entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national law.

Entry means for crossing the border. The stay itself is covered from article 6 section 2.

They can overstay.
In case the EU citizen is exercising EU treaty THAN the non-eu family member cannot overstay.

If i get it correctly Sincejune is a british citizen still in UK or in other EU country but not exercising EU treaty rights (the first 3 months is up he said), in this case he the wife overstayed.

Sincejune wrote:

mgb wrote:Technically a family member of a eu citizen cannot overstay a visa.

Eu directive 2004/38 article 5 section 2
Family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an
entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national law.

Entry means for crossing the border. The stay itself is covered from article 6 section 2.

So if me and my wife turn up at a French border and say she my wife here's the marriage certificate and we want to travel to Ireland under artical 10 EUTR will they just let us board the ferry?

No, you need proof of relationship, especially about that you are living together.
That is why i want to have the local RC for my wife cause we did not live together yet, so the Schengen visa and marriage cert would not be enough to UK at Calais.
After she got the local RC and proof of address that might be enough with marriage cert.

If you have article 10 card than the marriage cert and the card is enough.

I cant find it now but i will link it here, in 2016 with article 10 card some one was detained for days in UK, unlawfully of course.

jul1 wrote:

Sincejune wrote:So if me and my wife turn up at a French border and say she my wife here's the marriage certificate and we want to travel to Ireland under artical 10 EUTR will they just let us board the ferry?

No, you need proof of relationship, especially about that you are living together.
That is why i want to have the local RC for my wife cause we did not live together yet, so the Schengen visa and marriage cert would not be enough to UK at Calais.
After she got the local RC and proof of address that might be enough with marriage cert.

If you have article 10 card than the marriage cert and the card is enough.

I cant find it now but i will link it here, in 2016 with article 10 card some one was detained for days in UK, unlawfully of course.

Non-EU family members of EU citizens have a fundamental right to travel together with their EU family members to any of the EU member states, even if they do not have the required visa.

Viva free movement and C-459/99 (MRAX)!

See https://eumovement.wordpress.com/2010/0 ... to-travel/

noajthan wrote:

jul1 wrote:

Sincejune wrote:So if me and my wife turn up at a French border and say she my wife here's the marriage certificate and we want to travel to Ireland under artical 10 EUTR will they just let us board the ferry?

No, you need proof of relationship, especially about that you are living together.
That is why i want to have the local RC for my wife cause we did not live together yet, so the Schengen visa and marriage cert would not be enough to UK at Calais.
After she got the local RC and proof of address that might be enough with marriage cert.

If you have article 10 card than the marriage cert and the card is enough.

I cant find it now but i will link it here, in 2016 with article 10 card some one was detained for days in UK, unlawfully of course.

Non-EU family members of EU citizens have a fundamental right to travel together with their EU family members to any of the EU member states, even if they do not have the required visa.

Viva free movement and C-459/99 (MRAX)!

See https://eumovement.wordpress.com/2010/0 ... to-travel/

Ya it's very clear from the above link u have provided that they should facilitate entry even if they don't have ID card or passport leave alone the required visa.

jul1 wrote:

mgb wrote:Technically a family member of a eu citizen cannot overstay a visa.

Eu directive 2004/38 article 5 section 2
Family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an
entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national law.

Entry means for crossing the border. The stay itself is covered from article 6 section 2.

They can overstay.
In case the EU citizen is exercising EU treaty THAN the non-eu family member cannot overstay.

If i get it correctly Sincejune is a british citizen still in UK or in other EU country but not exercising EU treaty rights (the first 3 months is up he said), in this case he the wife overstayed.

The first 90 days (3 month) are without preconditions in every member state. If you would do border hopping every 3 month you could survive as long as you want.
If the corresponding eu citizen is not exercising treaty rights after this period the guest country can ask to leave the country. But this has nothing to do with a visa and is not a overstay.

For the UK take a look at the UKVI internet site https://www.gov.uk/apply-for-a-uk-residence-card

"You don’t need to apply for a residence card as a family member but it can:

• help you re-enter the country more quickly and easily if you travel abroad
  show employers you’re allowed to work in the UK
  help prove you qualify for certain benefits and services

"

Sincejune wrote:

mgb wrote:Technically a family member of a eu citizen cannot overstay a visa.

Eu directive 2004/38 article 5 section 2
Family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an
entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national law.

Entry means for crossing the border. The stay itself is covered from article 6 section 2.

So if me and my wife turn up at a French border and say she my wife here's the marriage certificate and we want to travel to Ireland under artical 10 EUTR will they just let us board the ferry?

What you want to do outside of the schengen area is not the business of the French.
If you leave the schengen area they stamp the schengen visa with a exit stamp. Without a schengen visa you cannot enter the schengen area if you are not visa exempt.
If the ferry company don't play ball you enter the schengen area again and get a entry stamp if the visa is multi entry. If the visa is not multi entry you ask for a visa for the family member of a eu citizen at the border. You need your marriage certificate for this.

A bit of geography and understanding of where Schengen begins and ends may help.

noajthan wrote:

jul1 wrote:

Sincejune wrote:So if me and my wife turn up at a French border and say she my wife here's the marriage certificate and we want to travel to Ireland under artical 10 EUTR will they just let us board the ferry?

No, you need proof of relationship, especially about that you are living together.
That is why i want to have the local RC for my wife cause we did not live together yet, so the Schengen visa and marriage cert would not be enough to UK at Calais.
After she got the local RC and proof of address that might be enough with marriage cert.

If you have article 10 card than the marriage cert and the card is enough.

I cant find it now but i will link it here, in 2016 with article 10 card some one was detained for days in UK, unlawfully of course.

Non-EU family members of EU citizens have a fundamental right to travel together with their EU family members to any of the EU member states, even if they do not have the required visa.

Viva free movement and C-459/99 (MRAX)!

See https://eumovement.wordpress.com/2010/0 ... to-travel/

try to claim that with any airliner without a visa, and the printed EU directive will be perfect to wipe your ar**.
This fundamental right is there since 2002? and looks like the EU could not enforce it since.
I know the airliner will be fined if the let you board without a visa but a RIGHT IS RIGHT, no? Looks it is not, your right should be accepted not depending on if you are travelling on foot/car/ferry/train/airplane.
So how come you only have this FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT when you are using ferry/train but not when you want to travel on airplane?

http://www.immigrationboards.com/eea-ro ... 91899.html

"Re: Code 1A Stamp.

Postby Dirk » Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:18 pm
You might have a hard time without an Article 10 Residence Card.

We went from Bilbao to Portsmouth on the ferry. Initially the Ferry Company were unwilling to allow boarding and they asked the opinion of the Spanish Immigration Officer who was the UKVI liaison at the port who told them that the residence card was enough. If we had not had the Article 10 card we would not have gotten on the ferry and got the 1A.

If you don't have a card from another EU country (not Italy as that's your wife's country) I think it is unlikely an airline or a ferry company will let you board. Your best bet to get a 1A stamp would be at Calais or the Brussels Eurostar as UK Immigration are there. They will apply the same tests as were applied for the family permit when that was refused."


"Re: Code 1A Stamp.

Postby fasi2530 » Mon Sep 07, 2015 10:38 pm

a.s.b.o wrote:

fasi2530 wrote:
Got the EEA Dependent Ink stamp on 6th of September 2015 at Calais. thankx for your support and information.



please share your experience regarding buying tickets, boarding the ferry and dialogues you had with the Immigration officers. Thank you



Hi a.s.b.o

I came from Calais. I was on bus from paris to London. but on border they stop me and take out my all luggage's and hand carry. they put me on Detention center for around 4 hours. I showed each and every thing my wife was with me but they still put me in detention, but after 1 hour interview and some extra documents and question and answers from my wife and me seperately they decided to give me EEA dependent stamp and then I was free to go any where in the UK.

first they tried to trick me that I have no visa and schengen visa is only for schengen countries uk is not schengen. but I proved them with legislation and regulations so then they understand that I have done complete job."



Calais to Dover many confirmed success but
1, if you have only Schengen visa and marriage cert than proof of relationship will be needed very likely
2, if you have local RC + marriage cert + some proof of address you have a good chance to get trough without any other documents
3, if you have artice 10 card + marriage cert that must be enough to get stamp

[/quote]Ya it's very clear from the above link u have provided that they should facilitate entry even if they don't have ID card or passport leave alone the required visa.[/quote]


Without ID card or passport....? I want to see when that will happen...
From Ireland as an EU citizen i could not even go home on airplane that is for sure, my friend just was in this situation, they said with expired passport as an EU citizen they wont let him board, he had to get a 10 day temp. passport in Dublin just to go home.

jul1 wrote:try to claim that with any airliner without a visa, and the printed EU directive will be perfect to wipe your ar**.
This fundamental right is there since 2002? and looks like the EU could not enforce it since.
I know the airliner will be fined if the let you board without a visa but a RIGHT IS RIGHT, no? Looks it is not, your right should be accepted not depending on if you are travelling on foot/car/ferry/train/airplane.
So how come you only have this FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT when you are using ferry/train but not when you want to travel on airplane?

...

...

No need to try to teach me about flight boarding rules and border security.

The freemovement right exists at the border.
Read the linked post, its not guaranteed that a travel operator will comply with the Directive. That is their prerogative.
And its an aggrieved party's right to file a case to right such a wrong.

Its you people looking for workarounds.
Clearly its much more straightforward to enter fortress UK or fortress CTA with a visa or FP or Article x RC.
Doing anything else is effectively the same as applying for a visa (or FP) at the border and the same types of checks and scrutiny will be applied.

mgb wrote:

jul1 wrote:

mgb wrote:Technically a family member of a eu citizen cannot overstay a visa.

Eu directive 2004/38 article 5 section 2
Family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an
entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national law.

Entry means for crossing the border. The stay itself is covered from article 6 section 2.

They can overstay.
In case the EU citizen is exercising EU treaty THAN the non-eu family member cannot overstay.

If i get it correctly Sincejune is a british citizen still in UK or in other EU country but not exercising EU treaty rights (the first 3 months is up he said), in this case he the wife overstayed.

The first 90 days (3 month) are without preconditions in every member state. If you would do border hopping every 3 month you could survive as long as you want.
If the corresponding eu citizen is not exercising treaty rights after this period the guest country can ask to leave the country. But this has nothing to do with a visa and is not a overstay.

For the UK take a look at the UKVI internet site https://www.gov.uk/apply-for-a-uk-residence-card

"You don’t need to apply for a residence card as a family member but it can:

• help you re-enter the country more quickly and easily if you travel abroad
  show employers you’re allowed to work in the UK
  help prove you qualify for certain benefits and services

"

Well im not sure aobut the legality of the "border hopping", you might be right about it...
I think its more like what can you do in theory, but doesnt sound a good practical advise, also if Ireland would not act unlawfully about EUTR visa we would not look for this options how to get in, so it is better to look for a solution where authorities expected to act unlawfully with the lowest chance.

If you don't want to take the risk to get denied boarding you have to take the route where you can reach directly the boarder control.
In Calais the ferry company don't check for a visa because you have to cross the uk border control in Calais anyway. Fishguard to Ireland is a connection inside the common travel area and there is no need for checking.
At the UK border control you present a printout of section 11 Right of admission to the United Kingdom from the EEA regulations 2006 and refer to subsection (4).
In Ireland you present a printout of the judgement from the irish high court.

Don't take UK-Eire journeys for granted:
http://www.immigrationboards.com/irelan ... 15748.html

noajthan wrote:Don't take UK-Eire journeys for granted:
http://www.immigrationboards.com/irelan ... 15748.html

i guess he was deported when he was not married to EU citizen.

Yeah, in case we go to UK then Ireland we need two stamps, and have to claim eu directive 2 times.
PLus Ireland is acting unlawfully with EUTR visas already, so even if we manage to get in based on solely the directive when we apply for the Irish resident card they can decline us.
I know according to the directive they should not, but if you ask me i would rather go to Spain for 3-4 months based on self-sufficiency to get article 10 card than to fight Irish government for our rights for years...
The resident card takes already min. 10 months to get and normally my wife wont be able to work until than, even though the directive says she has the right, but finding an employer who will hire her without the card very very unlikely.

We have still few months to decide, but so far id say 70-30 for article 10 card based on self-sufficiency rather then UK-Ireland on ferry.

If you think they can decline your application they can also decline the acknowledgment of the article 10 card.
What would be the difference in breaking the law?

I met some people in person, they confirmed that they were non-eu citizen legally living in UK, they got married to eu citizen in UK, did not apply for irish visa just went to Belfast-Dublin route, did not get stamped in Ireland, they applied for EU1, and since than they have the resident card, that is a big plus for the UK-Ireland way.
Seems there will be no legal issues with that route.

...though i dont know if they had article 10 card while still in uk

jul1 wrote:...though i dont know if they had article 10 card while still in uk

How does all this agonising help?
Your question/topic (as far as I remember) is about how to gain permission to enter UK / Eire / CTA (not how to zip around and across internal borders within it).

actually agonising helps me a lot, cause it makes me think trough all the options and lead to the decision what suits me the best.
When i buy something for few hundred EUR i will agonise about it for weeks, making a very important immigration decision worth few months of agonising at least, and believe me im not the only one who makes decisions like that.

jul1 wrote:actually agonising helps me a lot, cause it makes me think trough all the options and lead to the decision what suits me the best.
When i buy something for few hundred EUR i will agonise about it for weeks, making a very important immigration decision worth few months of agonising at least, and believe me im not the only one who makes decisions like that.

Fair enough, but suggest agonise about the border first - not what you will do when you have crossed it.
For that you need visualisation of success.