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Swede wishing to live in Ireland with US spouse

Forum to discuss all things Blarney | Ireland immigration

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morsan
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Swede wishing to live in Ireland with US spouse

Post by morsan » Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:35 am

So I know that it's possible for us to move to any Eu country, but I'm not sure what kind of financial requirements there are for actually being permitted an entry "visa". Do I, as a EU member, need to show some sort of proof of employment in order for my husband and child to get an entry permit? If so, does that mean that I need to find employment before my husband can join me? Do I need to show that I can support my family financially even though my husband would find work as soon as possible once in Ireland? When I immigrated to the US, my husband had to prove that he made at or above poverty level for me to be granted residence. Is it the same in the EU/Ireland? Or is the minimum higher than poverty level. We're not poor but we're by no means well off.

Anyone has been in the same situation?

Thanks.

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Re: Swede wishing to live in Ireland with US spouse

Post by JAJ » Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:19 am

morsan wrote:So I know that it's possible for us to move to any Eu country, but I'm not sure what kind of financial requirements there are for actually being permitted an entry "visa". Do I, as a EU member, need to show some sort of proof of employment in order for my husband and child to get an entry permit? If so, does that mean that I need to find employment before my husband can join me? Do I need to show that I can support my family financially even though my husband would find work as soon as possible once in Ireland? When I immigrated to the US, my husband had to prove that he made at or above poverty level for me to be granted residence. Is it the same in the EU/Ireland? Or is the minimum higher than poverty level. We're not poor but we're by no means well off.

Anyone has been in the same situation?

Thanks.
It's a grey area. However others on this forum have commented that the Irish authorities are extremely slow in processing applications, unless your husband can get an Irish visa before leaving the U.S. that allows him to work, access healthcare etc then you should consider your options before taking any significant steps.

Is the United Kingdom - including Northern Ireland - an alternative?

If you are just a green card holder, have you thought about taking out U.S. citizenship before you leave the United States? It's the only way to protect your right to return independently of your husband (you would still have to file for U.S. tax overseas but that's usually not a problem because of foreign tax credits and exclusions).

Sweden changed its law on 1 July 2001 and dual citizenship is now permittied.

morsan
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Post by morsan » Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:47 pm

Yes, the UK is a definite option. Ireland seems more luring to me at the moment though. But we have at least a year to figure everything out.
Yes, it would be nice to have US citizenship before taking off. I entered in 98 but went away less than five years later, spent 7 months in Sweden and lost my "spot" (gone 1 month too long) in the citizenship "queu". So, I have another two years to go. Don't know if I can wait that long. I don't really like the US at all.

I did hear about Sweden changing laws to allow dual citizenship, real nice.

About securing a visa for husband of mine--are you saying that it would be slow only if he were to apply IN Ireland (but not slow if he applied while still in the States)? I thought it was supposed to be real easy and quick for family members of EU nationals (but apparently more difficult for families of citizens of the particular country--at least so it seemed in the UK). For example, an application is free of charge for EU nationals and families, but not for citizens families.

I really would like to know all of this ahead of time--I don't like unpleasant surprises....

Thanks,
Josefina.

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Post by JAJ » Sat Aug 12, 2006 12:19 am

morsan wrote:Yes, the UK is a definite option. Ireland seems more luring to me at the moment though. But we have at least a year to figure everything out.
You could think about Northern Ireland, where you can live on the island of Ireland but benefit from simpler British immigration and nationality laws.

You would also avoid some of the other complications of life in the Republic of Ireland, including mandatory Irish language instruction for children right up to age 18 and a limited choice of non-Roman Catholic controlled schools.
Yes, it would be nice to have US citizenship before taking off. I entered in 98 but went away less than five years later, spent 7 months in Sweden and lost my "spot" (gone 1 month too long) in the citizenship "queu". So, I have another two years to go. Don't know if I can wait that long. I don't really like the US at all.
The residence requirement is three years, not five, if you are married to a U.S. citizen (and have been married for more than 3 years).

It's up to you whether or not to take out U.S. citizenship and there are some tax advantages and disadvantages to doing so. You should understand these. However if you choose not to become American, there is always the chance your U.S. citizen child may settle in the U.S. (as an adult) and you might not be able to join him or her (especially if your spouse is deceased). Taking vacations longer than 3 months will also be easier if you are a U.S. citizen.

A green card is at serious risk of being lost once the holder no longer lives in the United States.
About securing a visa for husband of mine--are you saying that it would be slow only if he were to apply IN Ireland (but not slow if he applied while still in the States)? I thought it was supposed to be real easy and quick for family members of EU nationals (but apparently more difficult for families of citizens of the particular country--at least so it seemed in the UK). For example, an application is free of charge for EU nationals and families, but not for citizens families.

I really would like to know all of this ahead of time--I don't like unpleasant surprises....
Can't comment, sorry. Others on this forum with more knowledge of the Republic of Ireland visa process may be able to give details. Although you will not find as many people interested in living in the Republic of Ireland compared to the United Kingdom, so you may not get any response.

morsan
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Post by morsan » Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:11 pm

Only three years? really? I called and asked, and they told me I had to wait 4 years and 1 day from the day I re-entered. This was in the spring of 2004. Is it possible that the laws have changed since?
Yes, I do go back and forth on the subject of waiting for citizenship. All the reasons you stated are very valid. No, if you're right about 3 years, I'll certainly go for it.
Don't think I would feel comfortable in N. Ireland, nor am I particularly lured by that area either (we're interested in Galway area mostly). We're not concerned with Irish education since we're homeschoolers. But if Irish authorities are difficult dealing with, I rather choose Scotland.

Josefina.

JAJ
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Post by JAJ » Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:23 pm

morsan wrote:Only three years? really? I called and asked, and they told me I had to wait 4 years and 1 day from the day I re-entered. This was in the spring of 2004. Is it possible that the laws have changed since?
No change in the law. Visit http://www.cis.gov and see the rules for yourself.
Don't think I would feel comfortable in N. Ireland, nor am I particularly lured by that area either (we're interested in Galway area mostly). We're not concerned with Irish education since we're homeschoolers. But if Irish authorities are difficult dealing with, I rather choose Scotland.
Josefina.
I don't know how the Republic of Ireland authorities tolerate homeschooling, but they may well insist you be in a position to teach your children the Irish language. The laws on this in the Republic of Ireland are very strict.

For ROI specific information, try http://www.irlgov.ie and http://www.oasis.gov.ie

The difficulties in dealing with Republic of Ireland immigration authorities are well documented on this forum.

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Post by scrudu » Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:15 pm

Just to answer some points:

Homeschooling in Ireland:
Check out the following site for information on eduction in Ireland. http://www.movetoireland.com/movepag/schover.htm
The Irish constitution allows for homeschooling and is adopted by some up to Secondary School. I think the Dept of Education may check that the home education is suitable, but I am guessing this is typical in all countries.

There are a number of sites concerning this topic, e.g. http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/reg ... reland.htm

Teaching Irish in Ireland:
Irish is a mandatory subject right up to Leaving Certificate (UK: A-Levels) for students in Ireland. An exemption can be granted from this if the pupil has studied abroad for a number of years. See http://www.oasis.gov.ie/education/prima ... irish.html for details

It is essential that the student get an "exemption" granted, as when applying for University in Ireland, some Universities have Irish as a "required subject" and a student without an exemption who has not passed Irish will not be considered.

http://foreignaffairs.gov.ie/informatio ... c/viii.asp
479. All Primary and Post-Primary pupils are required to study Irish unless they are specifically exempted from doing so by the conditions of exemption drawn up by the Department, which are mainly concerned with pupils who have been partly educated abroad before enroling in a school in Ireland and pupils with particular learning disabilities.
Roman-Catholic Schools
It is indeed true that the majority of schools in Ireland are RC based. This is historic really, as Catholicism was banned during English rule and as Catholics were not admitted to Education, the RC Church setup schools to educate the Catholics. As the RC church and the parishes funded these schools, and until recently it was mostly clergy (nuns, brothers) who taught in the schools, the churches are still involved albeit to a much lesser extent.

There are a number of Protestant/Presbyterian primary schools, and an increasing number of other secular schools, but religions are usually mixed in secondary and vocational (technical) schools .

This will most likely change given the ever increasing number of Immigrants to Ireland and the growing backlash against the RC Church in the Republic. Religious eduction is confined to Religious classes, and does not permeate the curriculum of other subjects. Currently at primary school level, children who are not RC who attend a RC school, are given other work to do during Religious education so are not forced to partake. At secondary school level, they may leave the classroom and go to another room to study. The concept of "Ethics" classes, seems to only have caught on in Multi-denominational schools. Again, this may change if there is a large enough percentage of students to warrant another teacher of another faith.

Entry of spouse of EU National to Ireland

Your non-EU spouse can apply for a D-Spouse visa to join their spouse in Ireland. Such an application should be made to the Irish Embassy in the country in which you live. This should take 6-8 weeks to process. The application is quite straightforward, and requires only the following documentation
  • 1. Application form
    2. Marriage Certificate
    3. Original passport (applicant)
    4. Copy of passport (yours)
    5. Evidence of EU Nationals Employment in Ireland
    -or-
    5. Evidence of how applicant will support yourself
    6. Accommodation details
On entering the country the non-EU spouse should register with the GNIB for a residence card.

Work Permit/Auth/Visa for spouse of EU National in Ireland
If you read other posts in this forum you will see details of this. There is a lot of uncertainty on how this works, but here is a brief overview.

Process 1
Apply via form EU_1 to Dept of Justice, wait six months, get work auth

Process 2
Go to GNIB and have them grant your spouse a residence permit with work auth. As your spouse is not from a "visa-required" country, I imagine he will get away with this one.

morsan
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Post by morsan » Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:12 pm

Thanks for the additional information.

No, I did not find any information pertaining specifically to spouses of US citizens. It only said five years.

We've looked into homeschooling for Ireland, and the government does not get involved in what subjects are taught in the home. I've spoken to some homeschoolers there and it seems pretty easy. In any case, if we were to live in Ireland, I would definitely learn Irish anyways (I'm a language freak). The government does not test homeschooled children. Where we are now, the laws are much stricter, which is one big reason for wanting to move to the UK or Ireland.

Josefina.

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Post by JAJ » Tue Aug 15, 2006 3:14 am

scrudu wrote: Roman-Catholic Schools
It is indeed true that the majority of schools in Ireland are RC based. This is historic really, as Catholicism was banned during English rule
Not to justify what went on in the past but this is something of an over-exaggeration ...

Religious eduction is confined to Religious classes, and does not permeate the curriculum of other subjects.
Not the experience of many Irish citizens:
http://www.educatetogether.ie/reference ... t_013.html

... In 1971, the “New Curriculum” removed the separation between literary and moral education and religious instruction and introduced an “integrated” approach in which the religious ethos of the school permeated the whole curriculum. This made it practically impossible for parents to withdraw their child from religious lessons, as from this date onwards the religious character of a school was to be ever-present throughout the school day ....

... Children who are not of the [Roman] Catholic faith have restricted access to 93% of Irish primary schools, and furthermore if they are also not of the Protestant faith, they then have restricted access to 99% of Irish primary schools all of which are funded by the State ...

... Since 1971, the integrated nature of the curriculum dictates that religious ethos of the school must permeate the entire school day. Hence separation of religious and non-religious content is today practically impossible. Even if children are withdrawn for specific religious instruction lessons, they are repeatedly exposed to educational content and practices that may be prejudicial to their family culture ...

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Post by scrudu » Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:29 am

JAJ wrote:
scrudu wrote: Roman-Catholic Schools
It is indeed true that the majority of schools in Ireland are RC based. This is historic really, as Catholicism was banned during English rule
Not to justify what went on in the past but this is something of an over-exaggeration ...
I don't want to get into a political debate, but I have to disagree. And I do believe that only through understanding Irish History can one put into context the modern day situation. You can read about the Penal Laws introduced during English rule at a number of sources, including:
1. http://www.vincentpeters.nl/triskelle/h ... 60.049.050
Some stipulations declared by these Penal Laws were:

* A Catholic was forbidden to receive education.
* A Catholic was forbidden to keep arms.
* A Catholic was forbidden to own a horse of greater value than five pounds.

The influence of King William III surfaced after his death in 1702. His successor, Queen Ann, rapidly passed the most controversial discriminating act, the Act to Prevent the Further Growth of Popery, as crowning touch in 1705. The most striking additions to the Penal Laws made by this Act were:

* A Catholic was forbidden to enter a profession.
* A Catholic was forbidden to hold public office.
* A Catholic was forbidden to engage in trade or commerce.
* A Catholic was forbidden to live in a corporate town or within five miles thereof.
* A Catholic was forbidden to purchase or to lease land.
* A Catholic was forbidden buy land.
* A Catholic was forbidden to vote.
* A Catholic was forbidden to hold a life annuity.
* A Catholic could not be guardian to a child.
* A Catholic could not attend Catholic worship.
* A Catholic could not himself educate his child.
or from 2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_Laws_(Ireland)
It was by Acts of this Westminster Parliament that the Cromwellian settlement was carried out, and that so many Catholics were outlawed. As for ecclesiastics, no mercy was shown them under Cromwellian rule. They were ordered to leave Ireland, and put to death if they refused, or deported to the Arran Isles or to Barbadoes, and those who sheltered them at home were liable to the penalty of death. To such an extent was the persecution carried that the Catholic churches were soon in ruins, a thousand priests were driven into exile
Religious eduction is confined to Religious classes, and does not permeate the curriculum of other subjects.
JAJ wrote:Not the experience of many Irish citizens:
http://www.educatetogether.ie/reference ... t_013.html
I am no expert on the laws involved in the running of schools in Ireland, but from my personal experience having attended RC primary and secondary schools, I can say that Religious instruction was 100% confined to Religion class during Secondary school. Protestant pupils had the option of leaving the class during RC instruction, but many chose to participate nonetheless. In primary school, again religion was kept to religion time, but as training for First Communion and Confirmation are done through the schools rather than by the church, it does mean that during 1st and 6th classes, extra time is given to RC education. This is indeed an issue for non-RC students, as depending on the school, they usually have to do other work during this time.

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Post by melo_dd » Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:20 pm

Back to the topic...
I am a US citizen and my husband is Swedish. We came to Dublin earlier this year and were concerned about the amount of money we had to have to prove that I dont have to work until my EU 1 appliation was approved.
But, actually when we got to the airport, the immigration officer didnt even look at our bank statments. He looked at our passports and marrige certificate ( which we had gotten translated by a registered civil translater, it was is Swedish). He gave me a one month stamp and told us to go to the immigration office once my huband does get a job so I can get a longer stamp. But, when we did that..the immigration office told me I cannot register or get a stamp until I have received my EU 1 form.
So , now I am sending it in...

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Post by Platinum » Tue Feb 06, 2007 5:27 pm

scrudu wrote:
Work Permit/Auth/Visa for spouse of EU National in Ireland
If you read other posts in this forum you will see details of this. There is a lot of uncertainty on how this works, but here is a brief overview.

Process 1
Apply via form EU_1 to Dept of Justice, wait six months, get work auth

Process 2
Go to GNIB and have them grant your spouse a residence permit with work auth. As your spouse is not from a "visa-required" country, I imagine he will get away with this one.
About Process 2:
Despite everyone telling me it was useless to report to the Gardai Immigration centre, I did, anyway, because that was what the immigration officer at Dublin airport told me to do, and I figured, if anything goes wrong, I would want to show that I did everything I was "supposed to".

I spoke to two people there, and between them, they knew less about the EU1 process than I did. I asked one of them if I could work while the EU1 was being processed, and she said, Sure, she didn't see why not. Now, I know that I technically can't, but I wasn't going to stop her if she wanted to give me a stamp that allowed me to work. But, alas, she thought better of it and went to check with someone first. So, no work authorization for me. (I'm American, and already have a PPS number and everything from having worked in Ireland before.)

However, this means it may be worth your while to go to the Gardai and ask about it- you may get someone who doesn't know the rules, and will stamp your passport to let you work.

Also, I've been reading on here that the Justice Department is now taking longer than the legal six month limit to process EU1 applications, which means no work for the non-EU spouse for at least six months. I would make sure the EU spouse either already has work lined up, or you have enough savings to convince the immigration people that you can set up house here without resorting to social services.

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Post by JAJ » Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:53 am

Platinum wrote: Also, I've been reading on here that the Justice Department is now taking longer than the legal six month limit to process EU1 applications, which means no work for the non-EU spouse for at least six months. I would make sure the EU spouse either already has work lined up, or you have enough savings to convince the immigration people that you can set up house here without resorting to social services.
Is it correct to conclude from this that there is no way to get a spouse or EEA visa (with work rights attached) before leaving home country? What kind of immigration system is that?

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Post by flyboy » Wed Feb 07, 2007 8:54 am

Post#4 is correct with regard to the 3 year requirement for naturalisation as the spouse of an US citizen. Have a look at the following link:

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/ ... f3d6a1RCRD

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Post by John » Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:32 am

JAJ wrote:Is it correct to conclude from this that there is no way to get a spouse or EEA visa (with work rights attached) before leaving home country? What kind of immigration system is that?
JAJ, the Irish are notorious for taking ages for processing applications for EEA Family Permits. They seem to operate on the policy that the 6-month maximum allowed under EU regulations for dealing with applications also includes a rule that they cannot possibly take less than 5 months 3 weeks!

Absolutely not acceptable in my opinion.
John

JAJ
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Post by JAJ » Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:22 pm

John wrote: JAJ, the Irish are notorious for taking ages for processing applications for EEA Family Permits. They seem to operate on the policy that the 6-month maximum allowed under EU regulations for dealing with applications also includes a rule that they cannot possibly take less than 5 months 3 weeks!

Absolutely not acceptable in my opinion.
What makes it worse is that it's not (apparently) possible to get any kind of permit or visa allowing work rights before leaving home country. Not everyone can afford to be out of the workforce for 6 months.

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Post by Platinum » Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:10 pm

Do you know, I've never thought about trying to get the EU1 form sent in and processed before moving over. I wonder if that would work? Since they are now asking for copies of passports and such, I guess it should be technically possible?

Oh, wait, no, the EU1 forms asks for the date you entered the state and the registration date (which is hilarious, because you can't register until they process the EU1!). Also, the form asks for proof of residence, but when I called the Justice Department, that wasn't on the list of paperwork I was asked to send in. *Shrug*

The one upside to the seemingly random and careless way the Irish government is handling this is that it's really easy to actually enter the country with your EU spouse. If you're not from a visa-required country, you just walk off the plane and show the passport control person your marriage certificate. There's no need for a permit or paperwork to enter the country at all.

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Post by John » Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:40 pm

What makes it worse is that it's not (apparently) possible to get any kind of permit or visa allowing work rights before leaving home country. Not everyone can afford to be out of the workforce for 6 months.
You mean the Irish are issuing no EEA Family Permits? (Which by definition are always issued outside of the country doing the issuing.)

The Irish cannot simply ignore that part of EU legislation regarding free movement etc..
John

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Post by scrudu » Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:49 pm

Platinum: It has always been possible for citizens of non-visa required countries to enter Ireland with their spouses. If you are not from a visa-required country (e.g. US, Australia), you should not have to show anything at Immigration if you are entering for tourist purposes.

Regarding whether you can apply before coming or not: I dont see why you cant. If you read http://www.justice.ie/80256E010039E882/ ... of2006.pdf for the full implementation of the EU directive into Irish law) it says "

-- regarding who this directive should apply to:
Application and transitional provisions
(2) These Regulations shall not apply to a family member unless the family member is lawfully resident in another Member State and is -
(a) seeking to enter the State in the company of a Union citizen in respect of whom he or she is a family member, or
(b) seeking to join a Union citizen, in respect of whom he or she is a family member, who is lawfully present in the State.
How do other EU countries (e.g. UK) handle this? Do they allow applications from outside the country for entry on the basis of marriage to EU spouse via the EU1 form?

Other interesting info:
-- regarding non-EU spouses who wish to enter Ireland on the basis of their marriage to an EU citizen (not visa required)
Permission for permitted family members of Union citizens to enter the State
5. (1) A person who wishes to enter the State on the basis that he or she is a permitted family member of a Union citizen may be required to produce to the Minister -
(a) (i) where the person is a Union citizen, a valid passport or national identity card, or
(ii) where the person is not a national of a Member State, a valid passport, (b) documentary evidence from the relevant authority in the country of origin or country from which he or she is arriving certifying that he or she is a dependant, or a member of the household, of the Union citizen,
-- regarding non-EU spouses who wish to enter Ireland on the basis of their marriage to an EU citizen (visa required)
(3) (a) A qualifying family member, who is a member of a class of non-nationals not specified in an order made under section 17 of the Immigration Act 2004 (No. 1 of 2004) as not requiring an Irish visa, shall be in possession of a valid Irish visa as a condition to being granted permission to enter the State.
(b) The Minister shall, on the basis of an accelerated process, consider an application for an Irish visa from a qualifying family member referred to in subparagraph (a) as soon as possible

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Post by Platinum » Thu Feb 08, 2007 1:02 pm

I guess all I know really is that, for a non-visa required national, I don't require any kind of prior permission to enter the country with/to join my EU-spouse. I can just show up with my marriage certificate at Dublin airport. From my reading, it appears that, for the UK, for instance, I'd have to apply in advance for an EEA family permit before I step foot in the UK. Is that not true? I don't know; I haven't looked into the UK scenario that much- although I may have to, because we're thinking of relocating to the UK.

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Post by scrudu » Thu Feb 08, 2007 2:46 pm

My point is this, if someone is from Country A (e.g. USA) which Country B (e.g. Ireland) stipulates as "not requiring a visa", a citizen of country A can enter Country B without a visa if they are entering for tourist purposes.

If that same person wishes to immigrate into the country (i.e. join their spouse on a more long term basis) they must provide proof of their relationship, e.g. marriage certificate. Such entry would be on the basis that the person would apply via the EU1/EU2/EU3 processes.

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