Zambrano Approvals

Ayan · Post by **Ayan** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:46 pm

fatty patty wrote:
Ayan wrote:
ImmigrationLawyer wrote:It is a risky case. It just depends on whether it is worth the risk to you. All litigation carries risks.
Hi All,
Thanks for your concerns and quick replies, But I have already signed all the documents and my solicitor already submit all documents to the High Court.
I am concerned and confused as well but unfortunately, for last few years I had so many problems which might cause me to take this decision and to believe the solicitor. so fingers crossed....

My both sons were born in Ireland. But they are Latvian citizens not Irish. Does it make any difference to be born in the host member state??

She is living in Ireland since 2006, But she only work in Ireland few months and caring about our children since, we haven't try for Irish passport yet but I think I should try for my younger son who born on October, 2010.
I can't get EU Fam through her as she is not exercising her treaty rights.

How long is the Latvian parent living in Ireland? If it is more than 5 years the children will qualify for Irish citizenship hence Zambrano ruling to take effect properly in your case. Why don't you apply through EU Treaty rights via spouse instead of relying on children. Be careful with the JR it will bite you back if you loose and by the looks of it you have a weak case imo.

ImmigrationLawyer · Post by **ImmigrationLawyer** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 7:35 pm

The answer is clear - you need to apply for an Irish pp for your son born in 2010 - you shoul provide proof of address (residency in Ireland) of your partner for the four years preceding his birth - 2006 to 2010. You need to show residency for at least three out of the last four years. Once he gets the red pp you can apply under the Zambrano procedure.

fatty patty · Post by **fatty patty** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:18 pm

Ayan wrote:
fatty patty wrote:
Ayan wrote:
ImmigrationLawyer wrote:It is a risky case. It just depends on whether it is worth the risk to you. All litigation carries risks.
Hi All,
Thanks for your concerns and quick replies, But I have already signed all the documents and my solicitor already submit all documents to the High Court.
I am concerned and confused as well but unfortunately, for last few years I had so many problems which might cause me to take this decision and to believe the solicitor. so fingers crossed....

My both sons were born in Ireland. But they are Latvian citizens not Irish. Does it make any difference to be born in the host member state??

She is living in Ireland since 2006, But she only work in Ireland few months and caring about our children since, we haven't try for Irish passport yet but I think I should try for my younger son who born on October, 2010.
I can't get EU Fam through her as she is not exercising her treaty rights.

How long is the Latvian parent living in Ireland? If it is more than 5 years the children will qualify for Irish citizenship hence Zambrano ruling to take effect properly in your case. Why don't you apply through EU Treaty rights via spouse instead of relying on children. Be careful with the JR it will bite you back if you loose and by the looks of it you have a weak case imo.

You are sorted then, your son born in 2010 will qualify for Irish citizenship provided you show your Latvian wife living history, her exercising treaty rights (p60/p21/bills/statements etc) as per immigration lawyer suggestion. I am kind of amazed as to why Brophy did not cop on to that. I wonder why ... Â£$.

ImmigrationLawyer · Post by **ImmigrationLawyer** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:32 pm

Actually the Passport Office don't require proof of economic rights being exercised, just plain being here in the state is enough.

Muttsnuts · Post by **Muttsnuts** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:48 pm

fatty patty wrote: You are sorted then, your son born in 2010 is Irish provided you show your Latvian wife living history, her exercising treaty rights (p60/p21/bills/statements etc) as per immigration lawyer suggestion. I am kind of amazed as to why Brophy did not cop on to that. I wonder why ... Â£$.

I'm amazed at the level of ire there is against Brophy solicitors for asking for â‚¬1,000 upfront for a judicial review case that would cost them far in excess of that to run. â‚¬1,000 would POSSIBLY cover the cost of Junior Counsel drafting the required papers for an application for JR. This does not cover the cost of meeting with the clients, taking instructions, analysing the merits of the case, seeking the various documents etc, all the work required by the solicitor. Judicial Review is not a money making exercise for solicitors. It involves a great deal of work and the only time there is a return is if a case is successful. There's no incentive for any solicitor to "take a punt" on a JR as the client will invariably be unable to pay the huge amount for costs.

Notwithstanding the foregoing, they may have dropped the ball on this particular occasion although I'd be surprised if this was the case. Perhaps the mother cannot prove residence for three years prior to the latest child's birth? Anyways, you should do as you have been advised and seek an Irish passport for your youngest child and rely on Zambrano.

If you can't get an Irish passport for your child, I'd be of the view that you have a good case under Zambrano on the basis of your children of Latvian nationality but it would probably require an ECJ reference as has been suggested. They are EU Citizens and there is an argument to be made that not permitting you to stay and work would deprive them as EU Citizens, of the genuine enjoyment of the substance of his EU Rights.

fatty patty · Post by **fatty patty** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 10:27 pm

Muttsnuts wrote:
fatty patty wrote: You are sorted then, your son born in 2010 is Irish provided you show your Latvian wife living history, her exercising treaty rights (p60/p21/bills/statements etc) as per immigration lawyer suggestion. I am kind of amazed as to why Brophy did not cop on to that. I wonder why ... Â£$.
I'm amazed at the level of ire there is against Brophy solicitors for asking for â‚¬1,000 upfront for a judicial review case that would cost them far in excess of that to run. â‚¬1,000 would POSSIBLY cover the cost of Junior Counsel drafting the required papers for an application for JR. This does not cover the cost of meeting with the clients, taking instructions, analysing the merits of the case, seeking the various documents etc, all the work required by the solicitor. Judicial Review is not a money making exercise for solicitors. It involves a great deal of work and the only time there is a return is if a case is successful. There's no incentive for any solicitor to "take a punt" on a JR as the client will invariably be unable to pay the huge amount for costs.

Notwithstanding the foregoing, they may have dropped the ball on this particular occasion although I'd be surprised if this was the case. Perhaps the mother cannot prove residence for three years prior to the latest child's birth? Anyways, you should do as you have been advised and seek an Irish passport for your youngest child and rely on Zambrano.

If you can't get an Irish passport for your child, I'd be of the view that you have a good case under Zambrano on the basis of your children of Latvian nationality but it would probably require an ECJ reference as has been suggested. They are EU Citizens and there is an argument to be made that not permitting you to stay and work would deprive them as EU Citizens, of the genuine enjoyment of the substance of his EU Rights.

You went in length and breadth explaining where that 1,000 quids went, like you have some sort of a case to ans. I did not suggest Brophy are Sh*te they maybe great at what they do. But a proper immigration solicitor would work out looking at scenarios at his/her disposal in first consultation. Its like I have a bulb to fix yet the electrician comes in and tell me you gotta do the whole rewiring of the house. Point is JR should be sought in extreme cases, its not something to be done willy nilly as its an expensive process + the legal ramifications at a later stage. But if the case as you say is that the mother cannot prove what she has to prove then there is game on. But i would still avoid a JR route and suggest EU citizen to try be back exercising treaty rights.

Ayan · Post by **Ayan** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:19 pm

ImmigrationLawyer wrote:Actually the Passport Office don't require proof of economic rights being exercised, just plain being here in the state is enough.

Thanks everyone for ur replies.

I will try in the coming weeks for passport, I don't have utility bills covering the whole length of her stay here but I can get letter from our GP and any bills, bank statements which I have.
Any other documents which might be relevant???

Muttsnuts · Post by **Muttsnuts** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:55 pm

fatty patty wrote: You went in length and breadth explaining where that 1,000 quids went, like you have some sort of a case to ans. I did not suggest Brophy are Sh*te they maybe great at what they do. But a proper immigration solicitor would work out looking at scenarios at his/her disposal in first consultation. Its like I have a bulb to fix yet the electrician comes in and tell me you gotta do the whole rewiring of the house. Point is JR should be sought in extreme cases, its not something to be done willy nilly as its an expensive process + the legal ramifications at a later stage. But if the case as you say is that the mother cannot prove what she has to prove then there is game on. But i would still avoid a JR route and suggest EU citizen to try be back exercising treaty rights.

I don't have a case to answer no but I am just trying to illustrate the fact that â‚¬1,000 does not even make a dent in the amount of work involved in your average JR.

In an ideal world, judicial review proceedings would be taken every time there is a decision that involves a misapplication of the law/lack of fair procedures/transparency/etc but there are also very real issues present for people here so I agree with you in this regard.

It would be very interesting to see the outcome of an ECJ reference in this case (personally I think Zambrano would be extended to include EU national minors not in their own State) but there is the reality of the fact that the OP can't sit around waiting for High Court proceedings and an ECJ reference while he is in limbo with no permission to work, etc.

Either way, there is a simpler solution for the OP and he should take that option if it is available. To continue with the electrics analogies, the OP should take the path of least resistance...

ImmigrationLawyer · Post by **ImmigrationLawyer** » Sun Jun 26, 2011 4:50 am

fatty patty wrote:â‚¬1,000 would POSSIBLY cover the cost of Junior Counsel drafting the required papers for an application for JR. This does not cover the cost of meeting with the clients, taking instructions, analysing the merits of the case, seeking the various documents etc, all the work required by the solicitor. Judicial Review is not a money making exercise for solicitors.
.

Judicial review most certainly is a money making exercise for solicitors. That is just the reality of the situation. In fact it is really THE ONLY money making exercise for immigration lawyers as private clients usually don't have the money to pay for their cases.

I don't think it's unfair for solicitors / barristers to ask for money up front from clients - if the case is somewhat risky and the client has the money to pay. The fee is then a type of insurance, if the case is lost then the fee pays for a small amount of the work. But... usually if a client in an immigration case has a good ( ie winnable or more than 50% chance) JR case, then many lawyers (in my experience, in immigration law in Ireland) will be happy to act on a no win/ no fee basis. it is worth taking the punt, for them, that the case will win, given that the costs awarded for successful High Court cases are relatively generous. I don't think any lawyer would argue with that.

Morrisj · Post by **Morrisj** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:49 am

Grrr..I dislike blind arguments,people should start seeing things around b4 posting,to make it simpler,Fatty i do agree with u,Muttnuts no disrespect,i think u r a solicitor in d ripping business. check out Conor Obriain solicitors having Michael Lynn as their junior counsel,also with Greg Oniel sol,with few others,they dnt ask 4 a 1000,d normal fee b4 goin to Court is d 150euro for Stamps and Affidavits.What is the 1000 for,when they havent even gone to d Court to sought leave,just only submissions made.

Morrisj · Post by **Morrisj** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:11 am

Ayan i really hope u r successful and rmbr Prayer works,get ur kids d Irish PP,it's easy and clear for ur kids.Back to u Muttnuts,here is a question. If for example leave was refused(i.e permission to fight the case)what would u say?Brophy should return d 1000 or would u say its just d game of JR? has leave been granted let alone a full hearing?my point is they r not sure of themselves thats y they requested the 1000,rmbr when a case is unsuccessful, applicants pay cost to d state not d solicitors.

ImmigrationLawyer · Post by **ImmigrationLawyer** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:27 am

~Maybe the leave hearing is on today - usually Mondays at 11.00.

Ayan you should go along and what happens. I sent you a PM with the link to the form you need for the passport app.

Ayan · Post by **Ayan** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:56 pm

Hi Guys,

I was in the court today with my solicitors, (Karen & Micheal Lynn).
The judge ask us to come again on 11th july, because he said the state's representative must be present as well in this case.

So lets see what happens next

leonex4t5 · Post by **leonex4t5** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:16 pm

hi Ayan...
From personal experience, i would advise you consider other members advise, whilst the judicial review is going on... try and get the irish passport and put in an application as the parent of an irish child. don't put all your eggs in one basket. btw.. Goodluck.

ImmigrationLawyer · Post by **ImmigrationLawyer** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:02 pm

did u ask the lawyers about the irish passport for your child?

Ayan · Post by **Ayan** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:38 pm

ImmigrationLawyer wrote:did u ask the lawyers about the irish passport for your child?

Yes she said I can apply, but the problem is that I don't have all the documents to prove her residence here. My both sons were born here in Ireland and she is living here since 2006, So now I am trying to get letters from previous landlords, letter from our GP and bank statements from bank.
So hopefully in next few days I will apply.
My both sons get vaccinations in Ireland so it might help as well.

Please recommend any other documents which might help.
She never get any social welfare, just we are getting child benefit payments.
She work only few months in last four years but never get any job seeker allowance or social benefits.
My family depends on me only.

IQU · Post by **IQU** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:11 pm

i think so you have good solid case go for it.

Morrisj · Post by **Morrisj** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:35 pm

@Ayan just a quick note,Michael Lynn is a Junior Counsel not a solicitor, Counsels are like representatives to solicitors in Court,Michael is good no doubt but hey as someone mentioned already,dnt put ur eggs in one basket.Another secret for u, the CSSO representing d state might withdraw between now and (morning of July 11th)means u won the case but if they don't please believe me,they are well prepared for the case.Wish u all the best of luck. Remember God is more than able and prayer is the key.

Ayan · Post by **Ayan** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:54 pm

Morrisj wrote:@Ayan just a quick note,Michael Lynn is a Junior Counsel not a solicitor, Counsels are like representatives to solicitors in Court,Michael is good no doubt but hey as someone mentioned already,dnt put ur eggs in one basket.Another secret for u, the CSSO representing d state might withdraw between now and (morning of July 11th)means u won the case but if they don't please believe me,they are well prepared for the case.Wish u all the best of luck. Remember God is more than able and prayer is the key.

Thanks Morrisj!

I will wait for july 11, and see what happen. In the mean time I am trying to get the required documents to apply PP for my younger son. Definitely its God who always decide our destiny not people.
If he want I will be able to live here with my kids. I always believe on God.
Thanks
I went through a tough period of my life in last few years but despite all those things I was able to make enough money for my family.
Hopefully, bad days will be over soon.

ImmigrationLawyer · Post by **ImmigrationLawyer** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:43 am

did the judge give you leave to bring your case or not? The state can't withdraw the case as the above poster said. Only you can withdraw the case or choose not to proceed. did the judge give you a certain period of time to serve the proceedings on the state? Maybe your lawyers would wait till you've made the passport application.

Ayan · Post by **Ayan** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:52 am

ImmigrationLawyer wrote:did the judge give you leave to bring your case or not? The state can't withdraw the case as the above poster said. Only you can withdraw the case or choose not to proceed. did the judge give you a certain period of time to serve the proceedings on the state? Maybe your lawyers would wait till you've made the passport application.

The judge said we should come again on 11th july, and the state's representatives will be in the court as well. My solicitors said may be we will have an early decision and DOJ might say they are happy to give me residence card.
I don't know its true or not?? But I can see my solicitors were not happy and they said that if there was another judge would definitely grant the leave today...

ImmigrationLawyer · Post by **ImmigrationLawyer** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:00 am

OK so the judge didn't give the leave. I am trying to think of anything else you could use for the proof of address for your wife. you could get a detailed letter fromt he family doctor stating each of the times she attended, either for herself or with the kids. You and your wife need to think what she was doing during the relevent period - who did she come into contact with who might be able to provide evidence.

walrusgumble · Post by **walrusgumble** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:29 am

Ayan wrote:Immigration lawyer, I have two EU national children but not Irish nationals.
Is it possible to get residency on behalf of EU children in Ireland.
My Solicitors, (Brophy) sent an application which was refused and the department said Zambrano only applies to the parent of Irish citizen children in Ireland.
Now my Solicitors wants to challenge that decisions in the High Court, So what is your suggestion?I should go ahead for this or its just a waste of time and money??

Thanks in advance for your reply.

Your children, are they in School? Has the EU parent ever worked in Ireland before? Why I ask , see Regulation 12 of Regulation 1216/68 , see the cases of Baumbaust, Teixtieria (wrong spelling), and other similar cases, ie the child's right to stay in school

Zambrano is a very contraversial cases in the eyes of many EU states. I very much doubts that it give a general right on minor children to live anywhere in Europe. Considering once the child is over 18, they would be expected to comply with Article 7 of Directive 2004/38 EC, I doubt that the EU will want to be seen as discriminating on age, especially, when it could not be justified. If you want to invoke the child's general right to move anywhere in Europe, the case you look to is CHen. (and that has its own problems)

walrusgumble · Post by **walrusgumble** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:35 am

Morrisj wrote:@ Ayan
To be honest with u, am really astonished!why would Brophy Solicitors do such thing in d first place,I mean sending in an application regarding ur case under Zambrano instead of using Chen which suits ur case better?YES ITS WASTE OF MONEY AND TIME INFACT THE RISK OF PAYING COST AFTER LOOSING D CASE.have u paid any money to them before?cos sincerely speaking am now having doubts about this BS SOLICITORS 4REAL

Chen is an extremely limited case, on a practicial level. Especially if the immigrant does not have the financial resources like the Chen Family had. Not only does the family (does not matter which member) have to show sufficient resources that they won't be a burden to the State (can they really do that, show that they won't need help if they can't work) AND have sufficient health cover (Irish Citizens and Irish Residents, have a hard time getting cheap cover, never mind an immigrant who might not be in Chen's shoes)

To save egg on their face, maybe Brophy should refrain from being so public about their opinions on EU law and so self promotional. Some of their comments were ridiculous and flied in the face of standard (realiable) text book knowledge of EU law. It looks worse then when they are proven incorrect. They might get satisification in "challenging the law" or "seeking confirmation", but people look to lawyers for results, and are not interested in academic discussions.

Ayan · Post by **Ayan** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:35 am

walrusgumble wrote:
Ayan wrote:Immigration lawyer, I have two EU national children but not Irish nationals.
Is it possible to get residency on behalf of EU children in Ireland.
My Solicitors, (Brophy) sent an application which was refused and the department said Zambrano only applies to the parent of Irish citizen children in Ireland.
Now my Solicitors wants to challenge that decisions in the High Court, So what is your suggestion?I should go ahead for this or its just a waste of time and money??

Thanks in advance for your reply.
Your children, are they in School? Has the EU parent ever worked in Ireland before? Why I ask , see Regulation 12 of Regulation 1216/68 , see the cases of Baumbaust, Teixtieria (wrong spelling), and other similar cases, ie the child's right to stay in school

Zambrano is a very contraversial cases in the eyes of many EU states. I very much doubts that it give a general right on minor children to live anywhere in Europe. Considering once the child is over 18, they would be expected to comply with Article 7 of Directive 2004/38 EC, I doubt that the EU will want to be seen as discriminating on age, especially, when it could not be justified. If you want to invoke the child's general right to move anywhere in Europe, the case you look to is CHen. (and that has its own problems)

My elder son will attend pre school play group in september as he is now 3 yrs old. The mother worked few months in KFC (2007-2008) before the birth of my first child.

Immigrationboards.com: Immigration, work visa and work permit discussion board

Zambrano Approvals