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Zambrano Approvals

Forum to discuss all things Blarney | Ireland immigration

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walrusgumble
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Post by walrusgumble » Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:41 am

Ayan wrote:Immigration lawyer, I have two EU national children but not Irish nationals.
Is it possible to get residency on behalf of EU children in Ireland.
My Solicitors, (Brophy) sent an application which was refused and the department said Zambrano only applies to the parent of Irish citizen children in Ireland.
Now my Solicitors wants to challenge that decisions in the High Court, So what is your suggestion?I should go ahead for this or its just a waste of time and money??


Thanks in advance for your reply.
I take it that you are a non eu person?

And Chen is no good to you?

Where is the EU parent? (not interested in whether you are still with the parent, that is not relevant. WHat is relevant is that you are an active parent - eg paying maintenance, have guardianship,access ie are you a joint carer etc)

Is the EU parent working / or was working? Still in Ireland? Age of Children? Are they in school? Where you and the EU parent married? (See Article 12-14 of Directive 2004/38EC)

There might be a way

walrusgumble
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Post by walrusgumble » Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:50 am

Ayan wrote:
walrusgumble wrote:
Ayan wrote:Immigration lawyer, I have two EU national children but not Irish nationals.
Is it possible to get residency on behalf of EU children in Ireland.
My Solicitors, (Brophy) sent an application which was refused and the department said Zambrano only applies to the parent of Irish citizen children in Ireland.
Now my Solicitors wants to challenge that decisions in the High Court, So what is your suggestion?I should go ahead for this or its just a waste of time and money??


Thanks in advance for your reply.
Your children, are they in School? Has the EU parent ever worked in Ireland before? Why I ask , see Regulation 12 of Regulation 1216/68 , see the cases of Baumbaust, Teixtieria (wrong spelling), and other similar cases, ie the child's right to stay in school

Zambrano is a very contraversial cases in the eyes of many EU states. I very much doubts that it give a general right on minor children to live anywhere in Europe. Considering once the child is over 18, they would be expected to comply with Article 7 of Directive 2004/38 EC, I doubt that the EU will want to be seen as discriminating on age, especially, when it could not be justified. If you want to invoke the child's general right to move anywhere in Europe, the case you look to is CHen. (and that has its own problems)
My elder son will attend pre school play group in september as he is now 3 yrs old. The mother worked few months in KFC (2007-2008) before the birth of my first child.
Pitty that the child was not a little older, ie going into baby infants. Don't know whether pre school would fall into the education scope

On that basis, it might, and I say might be possible to get residence on basis of cases like Baumbast, Texteria (there is another one, that happened with Texteria involving right to a house can't think of it) The child may have their own right to reside in order to go to school. The beauty of these cases that I have mentioned, is that unlike Article 7 of Directive 2004/38 EC (student requiring self finance and health insurance) these cases do not require the self finance etc. Look at those cases and talk to lawyer. Your position might not be able in invoke them now, but coul later. EU citizen should be seen to be actively looking for work. If your not married, make sure you have your guardians order and relevant rigths to child. Basically, as eu parent was a worker under article 45 tfeu, he is entitled to rights under Regulation 1216/86 (parts that are not repealled by Directive 2004/38 EC)

Talk to lawyer about that angle. I have only given a bried painting.

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Post by Ayan » Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:57 am

walrusgumble wrote:
Ayan wrote:Immigration lawyer, I have two EU national children but not Irish nationals.
Is it possible to get residency on behalf of EU children in Ireland.
My Solicitors, (Brophy) sent an application which was refused and the department said Zambrano only applies to the parent of Irish citizen children in Ireland.
Now my Solicitors wants to challenge that decisions in the High Court, So what is your suggestion?I should go ahead for this or its just a waste of time and money??


Thanks in advance for your reply.
I take it that you are a non eu person?

And Chen is no good to you?

Where is the EU parent? (not interested in whether you are still with the parent, that is not relevant. WHat is relevant is that you are an active parent - eg paying maintenance, have guardianship,access ie are you a joint carer etc)

Is the EU parent working / or was working? Still in Ireland? Age of Children? Are they in school? Where you and the EU parent married? (See Article 12-14 of Directive 2004/38EC)

There might be a way
yes I am from a non eu country.
The EU national (My Girl friend) is living with me since 2007. we are living as a family unit for last four years. I am working and providing for my kids and also for my partner.
we are not married to each other. She is still in Ireland and we are living together. She is not working at the moment. but have worked in the past just for few months. She is even interested to work but there are no jobs now. And we don't have anybody to look after our kids.

walrusgumble
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Post by walrusgumble » Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:02 am

Ayan wrote:
walrusgumble wrote:
Ayan wrote:Immigration lawyer, I have two EU national children but not Irish nationals.
Is it possible to get residency on behalf of EU children in Ireland.
My Solicitors, (Brophy) sent an application which was refused and the department said Zambrano only applies to the parent of Irish citizen children in Ireland.
Now my Solicitors wants to challenge that decisions in the High Court, So what is your suggestion?I should go ahead for this or its just a waste of time and money??


Thanks in advance for your reply.
I take it that you are a non eu person?

And Chen is no good to you?

Where is the EU parent? (not interested in whether you are still with the parent, that is not relevant. WHat is relevant is that you are an active parent - eg paying maintenance, have guardianship,access ie are you a joint carer etc)

Is the EU parent working / or was working? Still in Ireland? Age of Children? Are they in school? Where you and the EU parent married? (See Article 12-14 of Directive 2004/38EC)

There might be a way
yes I am from a non eu country.
The EU national (My Girl friend) is living with me since 2007. we are living as a family unit for last four years. I am working and providing for my kids and also for my partner.
we are not married to each other. She is still in Ireland and we are living together. She is not working at the moment. but have worked in the past just for few months. She is even interested to work but there are no jobs now. And we don't have anybody to look after our kids.

The angle to look at then is the Baumbast/ Texteria line of authority. Certaintly not the pointless exercise on Zambrano.

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Post by Morrisj » Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:10 am

@Wals,I agree with u on that,Brophy should refrain from their own meaning of Zambrano.They even went as far as convincing people that spouses of Irish citizens(with no Irish minor child)can benefit from Zambrano,tho i really wish this to happen but its not true,The judgment is clear and even the reply from shatter regarding Zambrano is also very clear.U said Chen involves Financial stability,I think Ayan is qualified cos he said the family has been depending on him without major benefits from the state.
We are nothing but like pencil in the hands of our creator God Almighty

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Post by Morrisj » Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:33 am

@Immig.lawyer,am not saying am a scholar or sumfin but just want to let u know the Dept can withdraw a case and pay cost to the applicant,it happens but its rare and there's a pössibility of that happening in Ayans case
1.According to the submissions Ayan posted,his solicitors made application using both Chen/Zambrano.The Dept refused him on Zambrano,without making any reference to Chen,Ayan hope am correct?if am not leme know.As i was saying Ayan is qualified for Chen in terms of finance,thats a merit
We are nothing but like pencil in the hands of our creator God Almighty

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Post by Morrisj » Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:33 am

@immig.lawyer
point number 2, you know urself,theres always a proper consideration given to a case by senior officials b4 commencing on legal proceeding,Ayan stated the judge postponed the case to July 11th cos he/she doesnt want the oneside(ex parte)whatever they call it,if the particular Judge wanted to refuse leave,he/she wouldv done that with d refusal letter 4rm Dept and other submissions,Ayans case is under consideration by senior staffs at d moment,they might withdraw especially if leave is granted
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ImmigrationLawyer
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Post by ImmigrationLawyer » Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:37 am

yeah... it's just your terminology is a bit wrong - the Respondent can't withdraw the case but it can be struck out on consent following settlement of the case, is that what you mean?
Ayan, don't forget, your partner's medical records in relation to your elder child are proof of residence in respect of the second child's Irish passport app. You should request detailed records from the GP and the maternity hospital.
Regarding the right to education: the Teixeira and Ibrahim cases relied on Council Regulation (EEC) No 1612/68 of October 15, Article 12
"The children of a national of a Member State who is or has been employed in the territory of another Member State shall be admitted to that State's general educational, apprenticeship and vocational training courses under the same conditions as the nationals of that State, if such children are residing in its territory."
The law surrounding these free movement issues is very unclear, and the cases since Chen are contradictory. Unfortunately it seems that further references to the ECJ will be necessary in the future.

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Post by walrusgumble » Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:59 am

Morrisj wrote:@Wals,I agree with u on that,Brophy should refrain from their own meaning of Zambrano.They even went as far as convincing people that spouses of Irish citizens(with no Irish minor child)can benefit from Zambrano,tho i really wish this to happen but its not true,The judgment is clear and even the reply from shatter regarding Zambrano is also very clear.U said Chen involves Financial stability,I think Ayan is qualified cos he said the family has been depending on him without major benefits from the state.
Happy days then, in the sense of it does not have to be the EU parent who is finanically sufficient, obviously not the child either. Issue though is, is the non eu person legally residing here on the basis of the EU spouse/girlfriend or on another basis eg student.

If its the former, it could, techinically mean that as the EU spouse/partner is not working or exercising their eu rights, then techincally, the non eu person's residence is not legal and therefore he is working illegally. When looking at cases like this, is does not matter what the non eu person does. It is what the EU person does. Residency on basis of relationship of eu wife/partner is soley determined as to whether the eu person is exercising their EU rights. While she can claim self sufficiency via the non eu person, I don't think credit can be taken from income on basis of illegal employment. A few English cases, interpreting Chen suggest that account can not be made of this situation


http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cg ... od=boolean

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2006/1494.html

(see paragraph 14!!!)

http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cg ... od=boolean


http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cg ... od=boolean

http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cg ... od=boolean



However, if the non eu spouse/partner has status on independent basis, well then happy days.

Also there is a requirement of health insurance too!

walrusgumble
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Post by walrusgumble » Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:35 am

ImmigrationLawyer wrote:yeah... it's just your terminology is a bit wrong - the Respondent can't withdraw the case but it can be struck out on consent following settlement of the case, is that what you mean?
Ayan, don't forget, your partner's medical records in relation to your elder child are proof of residence in respect of the second child's Irish passport app. You should request detailed records from the GP and the maternity hospital.
Regarding the right to education: the Teixeira and Ibrahim cases relied on Council Regulation (EEC) No 1612/68 of October 15, Article 12
"The children of a national of a Member State who is or has been employed in the territory of another Member State shall be admitted to that State's general educational, apprenticeship and vocational training courses under the same conditions as the nationals of that State, if such children are residing in its territory."
The law surrounding these free movement issues is very unclear, and the cases since Chen are contradictory. Unfortunately it seems that further references to the ECJ will be necessary in the future.

But the fact of the Chen case, and Baumbaust/Ibrahim/Teixeira are some what different.

At least in Teixeira, there was at some point legal residence and the EU adult, exercising EU treaty rights. THis never occurred in Chen. Chen, the child never reached the stage to be near Article 12 of Regulation 1216/68. As you know, the ECJ are not really bound by precedent and must take cases on a cases by case basis, which as you know leads to exactly the results you suggest, contradiction and inconsistency. The ECJ clearly do not want to cause obstacles etc in Freemovement, even if it means infringing on areas of national law that they had no competence.

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Post by Morrisj » Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:43 am

@immiglawyer yeah i accept,that was what i mea.
striking out with settlement but as it is now for Ayan,youse said he cant benefit from Chen,means i was wrong to say the Dept might withdraw.Ayan God is in Control,believe that
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Post by Muttsnuts » Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:36 pm

ImmigrationLawyer wrote:
fatty patty wrote:€1,000 would POSSIBLY cover the cost of Junior Counsel drafting the required papers for an application for JR. This does not cover the cost of meeting with the clients, taking instructions, analysing the merits of the case, seeking the various documents etc, all the work required by the solicitor. Judicial Review is not a money making exercise for solicitors.
.
Judicial review most certainly is a money making exercise for solicitors. That is just the reality of the situation. In fact it is really THE ONLY money making exercise for immigration lawyers as private clients usually don't have the money to pay for their cases.

I don't think it's unfair for solicitors / barristers to ask for money up front from clients - if the case is somewhat risky and the client has the money to pay. The fee is then a type of insurance, if the case is lost then the fee pays for a small amount of the work. But... usually if a client in an immigration case has a good ( ie winnable or more than 50% chance) JR case, then many lawyers (in my experience, in immigration law in Ireland) will be happy to act on a no win/ no fee basis. it is worth taking the punt, for them, that the case will win, given that the costs awarded for successful High Court cases are relatively generous. I don't think any lawyer would argue with that.
I know the ship has sailed on this but I've been offline for a while...

JR is worth the money for a solicitor but only when successful and for every good judicial review case you get, you get 20 other cases that are not so certain. Even at its'best it is incredibly difficult to predict what an outcome will be from a judge.

JR is very unpredictable and very often, you will expend alot of work on a case only to find that you won't get paid at all by a client. People aren't interested in paying for the service after a case has failed and they baulk at a request of a few grand up front.

All's I;m saying is that overall, when you factor in successful vs unsuccessful cases, it is not that lucrative. It is lucrative on the basis of a single successful case but only if you don't factor in the cost of several other inevitable failed cases.

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Post by Muttsnuts » Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:39 pm

Morrisj wrote:Grrr..I dislike blind arguments,people should start seeing things around b4 posting,to make it simpler,Fatty i do agree with u,Muttnuts no disrespect,i think u r a solicitor in d ripping business. check out Conor Obriain solicitors having Michael Lynn as their junior counsel,also with Greg Oniel sol,with few others,they dnt ask 4 a 1000,d normal fee b4 goin to Court is d 150euro for Stamps and Affidavits.What is the 1000 for,when they havent even gone to d Court to sought leave,just only submissions made.
Not a solicitor and not involved in "d ripping business". I don't know about each individual solicitors policy in relation to taking on judicial review but you can't expect someone to do all that work for free. If it's agreed upfront that's fine but it's unreasonable to complain about these kinds of fees when people don't generally realise the level of work involved and the fees of counsel which is generally significant even for just drafting papers.

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Post by ImmigrationLawyer » Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:57 pm

Instead of complaining, people should shop around and check what different firm's policies are before they choose a solicitor. The problem is time tho - people might have to issue a case quickly and don't always have time to do this. btw I didn't say that JR was "lucrative" overall necessarily, you are right, there is a balance to be struck, one successful case has to compensate for the other losers.

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Post by Monifé » Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:36 am

Muttsnuts wrote:All's I;m saying is that overall, when you factor in successful vs unsuccessful cases, it is not that lucrative. It is lucrative on the basis of a single successful case but only if you don't factor in the cost of several other inevitable failed cases.
ImmigrationLawyer wrote:btw I didn't say that JR was "lucrative" overall necessarily, you are right, there is a balance to be struck, one successful case has to compensate for the other losers.
One client should not have to compensate for another clients unsuccessful case.
beloved is the enemy of freedom, and deserves to be met head-on and stamped out - Pierre Berton

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Post by ImmigrationLawyer » Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:55 am

Not from the fees paid from their own pocket, no, but I meant the fees paid by the State for a successful high court case

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Post by riseen » Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:40 pm

Frequently Asked Questions about the Zambrano Judgment

Question 1
My child is an EU citizen but does not hold an Irish Passport. Does the Zambrano Judgment apply to my case?
Response 1
No. In an Irish context, the Zambrano Judgment applies to certain third country nationals but in all cases they must be the parent of an Irish born citizen child before they can seek residency in Ireland under the terms of the Zambrano Judgment.

Question 2
My child is an Irish born citizen but, despite being born there, has not resided there at any stage. Does the Zambrano Judgment allow me a right of residence in Ireland?
Response 2
No. The Zambrano Judgment applies to an Irish born citizen child’s country of residence and nationality. If an Irish born citizen child has not been ordinarily resident in Ireland then his/her parent(s) cannot rely on the Zambrano Judgment as a basis for securing a right of residence in Ireland.

Question 3
I am a non-EEA national. I lived in Ireland for some years but left some time ago to return to my country of origin. I left voluntarily and was never the subject of a Deportation Order. I am the parent of an Irish born citizen child. Can I rely on the Zambrano Judgment to allow me to reside in Ireland?
Response 3
No. The Zambrano Judgment does not apply to any person who left Ireland of their own volition. Such persons can, of course, apply for a visitor or study visa to visit Ireland but cannot rely on the Zambrano Judgment as a basis to obtain a right of residence in Ireland.

Question 4
I am a failed asylum seeker and am the parent of an Irish born citizen child. I have applied to the Minister for Justice and Equality for Subsidiary Protection and I have also submitted representations to the Minister for consideration under Section 3 of the Immigration Act 1999 (as amended). I would wish to rely on the Zambrano Judgment to secure a right of residence in Ireland. What should I do to advance this?
Response 4
Your application for Subsidiary Protection will have to be considered first and a decision notified. If the Subsidiary Protection decision is favourable then no further consideration of your case would be required, given that the status of Subsidiary Protection carries a right of residency for a statutory, renewable, three year period.
Where, however, the Subsidiary Protection application is refused, your case must then be considered under Section 3 of the Immigration Act 1999 (as amended). At that point, given that you are the parent of an Irish born citizen child, this would be factored into the Section 3 consideration. If it appears that the Zambrano criteria are met in your case, and there are no significant issues of criminality associated with your case, you are likely to be granted permission to remain in the State for a three year period, subject to a set of stated conditions.
If you are concerned that the presence of a Subsidiary Protection application may delay the finalisation of your case, it would be open to you to withdraw that application. If you decided to pursue that option, this must be made known in writing to the Repatriation Division, Dept. of Justice and Equality, 13-14 Burgh Quay, Dublin 2.

Question 5
I have been told that, if granted a right of residency, I will have a Stamp 4 based permission to remain in Ireland. What does this mean?
Response 5
A Stamp 4 denotes that the holder has an immigration permission to be in the State and the right to work without the need for an Employment Permit. It does not, however, confer on the holder an entitlement to any particular public service or funding. Such matters are determined by the relevant government departments or State agencies. Once a person is granted permission to remain on Stamp 4 conditions, it is generally renewed subject to the laws of the State being observed and other conditions being complied with. Such conditions will be set out in your decision letter.

Question 6
I am the father of an Irish born citizen child but my name is not on my child’s Birth Certificate. What would I need to do to convince the Minister for Justice and Equality that I should be permitted to remain in Ireland?
Response 6
In circumstances where there is doubt as to parentage of an Irish citizen child, such as where a father’s details were not recorded on the child’s Birth Certificate when the child was being registered, the onus will be on any such person claiming parentage of an Irish citizen child to produce evidence of a biological link to that child. Verifiable DNA evidence would be required as would documentary evidence of the role that such a parent had been playing in his/her child’s life etc.

Question 7
I was granted permission to remain in the State, on Stamp 4 conditions, by the Minister for Justice and Equality last year. I have an Irish born citizen child. Does the Zambrano Judgment offer me anything extra in terms of my immigration status in the State?
Response 7
Assuming that you have ‘registered’ with the Garda National Immigration Bureau (GNIB) and, as such, hold a GNIB Card with a Stamp 4, then the Zambrano Judgment offers you nothing that you don’t already have. You already hold a right of residency which allows you to work in the State without a Work Permit or to set up in any legitimate business or profession without the permission of the Minister. You can apply for renewal of your permission to remain before your current permission to remain expires. Where it is clear that you have complied with the conditions attaching to your current permission to remain, and you have not come to the adverse attention of An Garda Siochana, or any other State service provider, your permission to remain will be renewed.

Question 8
I wish to make a case to obtain residency on the basis of the Zambrano Judgment. Will I need to make my case through a solicitor?
Response 8
No, there is no requirement that any such documentation be submitted through a solicitor. Once the required documentation is submitted, the case is considered on its merits regardless of whether it was submitted by an individual or by a solicitor acting on his/her behalf. However, where you decide to make your case through a solicitor, you will need to give your written consent to that solicitor to act on your behalf for the purposes of your dealings with the Department of Justice and Equality. Where such written consent is not included in correspondence received from a solicitor, the Department will not be in a position to respond substantively to that solicitor but will instead request the solicitor to submit evidence of their written authority to act on that applicant’s behalf. This position is well known to the membership of the legal profession.

All correspondence in relation to the Zambrano Judgment should be sent to:
Repatriation Division,
INIS,
13-14 Burgh Quay,
Dublin 2

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Post by jane jackson » Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:45 am

I observed those who have court cases are getting approval under zambrano sent to them directly at thier homes.

I know of 2 yesterday and one today, thats good news.

Any update for those who have no immigration history in ireland? I have a few pips waiting all they got is an acknowledgement that dates back to early june.

Dodo have u gotten yours?

Immigration lawyer any recent updates this week for ur clients with no immigration history for this week.

Guys please update if you know of any new approvals

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Zambrano application

Post by khan24 » Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:53 pm

Hi ,Any one got approved under zambrano rulling ?

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Re: Zambrano Approvals

Post by vic86 » Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:41 pm

I am currently living in northern ireland and i have got my irish born child, is it possible for me to apply for residency under zambrano directive.
thanks

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