appeal allowed after 5 yrs of legal battle

johndoe789 · Post by **johndoe789** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 2:55 pm

I got my determination today in which the FTT dismissed my appeal. I provided bank letter and lots of emails confirming my bank account in Pakistan. The judge gave a little consideration to it and said it would be more helpful if I had more information from the bank.

The respondent raise some questions during the hearing which I answered fairly well.

Now I am in the UK for 9.8 years. My solicitor told me that he will apply permission to appeal in the UTT and then go directly to FTT. In this way my my full 10 years will be completed and he will then my ILR application based on the 10 years of lawful residence.

Can I apply 10 years long residence when there is deception in the previous application? What can I do at this time? Experts please help me on this as I am in a terrible situation.

I havent deceive HO. It was bank's mistake that they put a wrong account number on the letter which they confirmed in the email. I asked the bank to issue me the letter, they say that we will issue it but never issued.

I really appreciate if gurus/experts help me in this regard.

Thanks

johndoe789 · Post by **johndoe789** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:47 pm

61 views no answer yet?

Princess of Ammi · Post by **Princess of Ammi** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:48 pm

your 1st endeavor should be, to have been accepted to appeal to upper tribunal, for that you need a lawyer who can identify the error of law made by recent court, looking at your situation, innocence and having not enough evidences(as judge said) you lost it at the 1st place that should not be a problem for reputed lawyer for the upper court. they can always identify an acceptable error of law.

the way you worrying invoked me say more than I should that, If I am accused of deception where I can prove it was not me but a third party, that third party should back me up with anything I require and helps me in the court, to make that third party listening to me I would approach the local MP and anyone local whose voice gets heard,I will get banking ombudsman involved in.
proofs that you provided would not have been enough for purpose as judged mentioned, you need to get acceptable proofs, for that you should be limitless in approaching bank.

there can not be a precise answer whether you can successfully or can not apply for ILR under current circumstances, but following general guidance you should expect a decline if applied having allegation(deception) in place.

johndoe789 · Post by **johndoe789** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:49 pm

Thanks for your reply.

My solicitor said that any new letter or recent document will not be accepted in the UTT as only those evidence is accepted which were presented to the FTT in the bundle.

My solicitor is saying that there is a little chance in the UTT. I live in the UK and donot know any local MP. I have all the emails trails where I sent emails to the Bank HQ and Bank HQ confirmed that an error was made in the letter and but reluctant in issuing the new bank letter.

I do not know than why my solicitor is saying that I can get ILR even though there is deception on my shoulder.

Can any one give me a contact of a good solicitor?

Princess of Ammi wrote:your 1st endeavor should be, to have been accepted to appeal to upper tribunal, for that you need a lawyer who can identify the error of law made by recent court, looking at your situation, innocence and having not enough evidences(as judge said) you lost it at the 1st place that should not be a problem for reputed lawyer for the upper court. they can always identify an acceptable error of law.

the way you worrying invoked me say more than I should that, If I am accused of deception where I can prove it was not me but a third party, that third party should back me up with anything I require and helps me in the court, to make that third party listening to me I would approach the local MP and anyone local whose voice gets heard,I will get banking ombudsman involved in.
proofs that you provided would not have been enough for purpose as judged mentioned, you need to get acceptable proofs, for that you should be limitless in approaching bank.

there can not be a precise answer whether you can successfully or can not apply for ILR under current circumstances, but following general guidance you should expect a decline if applied having allegation(deception) in place.

johndoe789 · Post by **johndoe789** » Fri Oct 17, 2014 7:28 pm

I am in the process of permission of appeal in the UTT. My 10 years will be completed in the first week of December 2014. My tier 1 ent. visa was refused on the basis of deception and I appealed it in FTT and it was dismissed. The judge didnt taken in to account the bank HQs emails confirming the genuineness of my bank account and the bankers draft they paid me worth of £52,000 before they closed my account.

The judge ask me a letter which I now requested from the bank. The bank says it is not their policy to issue such letters. I have appealed in the Pakistan state bank about the bank response and waiting for the outcome.

My solicitor told me that once the permission to appeal is dismissed, we can directly go to UTT and this way your 10 years will be completed and then withdraw the appeal and apply for the ILR.

Is there any gap when the appeal is withdrawn and application for the ILR?

Please Help!!!!!

one2one2 · Post by **one2one2** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 9:27 pm

Brother its deception and HO and Court take it really serious, It has to be wiped off your history or you will be in a bigger mess withdrawing your appeal. See some professional solicitor.

johndoe789 · Post by **johndoe789** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 10:20 pm

I have a solicitor who said to me that we can withdraw the appeal once the 10 years completed and then apply for ILR.

I read on this forum that withdrawing an appeal and then applying a ILR based on 10 years there will be a gap as HO may take the 28 day period from the last determination.

Does this means that I have to attend the UTT hearing to withdraw my appeal to be on safe side in the worst case scenario?

Gurus plz through your light on this.

Princess of Ammi · Post by **Princess of Ammi** » Sun Oct 19, 2014 1:54 pm

Dear johndoe789

one2one2 has told you your case shouldn't have to bear the deception allegation before you qualify for 10 years long residency. in your case completing 10 years is secondary issue primary thing you got upfront to deal with is the deception with which your appeal relates.

being allowed to appeal(if you lower court did not let you at the 1st place)to or being accepted(if you apply for permission) to appeal to Upper tribunal, in event of withdrawing in appeal,in either situations, your 10 years long residency clock stopped on the day you received your FTT decision. and by that time you did not have completed your 10 years I am sure.

if you are up and apply for 10 years long residency where you disregard the deception issue thinking that it wont bring any impact to your 10 years long residency application you should let appeal run until decision, before you apply.
or once an appeal to permission to appeal to upper tribunal gets rejected you should still be okay in that scenario(if you would have completed your 10 years by that time) but again deception is something may have a devastating impact on your 10 years long residency application.

focus to deal and tryna convince judges it was not your fault it was bank as you said it was bank, is a solution to your all problems

Frontier Mole · Post by **Frontier Mole** » Mon Oct 20, 2014 7:55 am

Once deception is mentioned in a refusal then that kills off any hope of futher leave. Worse still in your case you lost at appeal so that is supporting the reason for refusal. Trying to spin out your appeal rights to get to 10 years is a pointless exercise given the deception refusal.
If you get to ten years and apply for ILR it will be a mandatory refusal for employing deception in your current visa application.
You have no choice but to carry on with your appeal to clear your name. If you fail to overturn the deception then you cannot possibly be granted ILR as by default you are not a person of good character.
If your rep is saying don't worry just get to 10 years and apply for ILR they are leading you down the wrong path.

johndoe789 · Post by **johndoe789** » Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:10 pm

Thanks for your reply.

You mentioned that when I apply for the 10 year ILR there is a mandatory refusal.I read the guidance and immigration rules, when I will apply for ILR, the deception will be in the previous application not in the current application. The refusal due to the deception in the previous application will be on the Discretion' not mandatory [https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _0_EXT.pdf].

I have just read this guidance and I am thinking that my solicitor is also saying right.

I am not arguing here as i am not a qualified person. I am just seeking your comments to the above gov uk guidance.

I really appreviate if Vinnay or other moderators comment on this.

I am also seeking help from the bank and Pakistan state bank for the bank mistake. As mentioned before, bank confirm everything in an email to me which hast been taking in to account as evidence and my appeal was refused.

regards

Frontier Mole wrote:Once deception is mentioned in a refusal then that kills off any hope of futher leave. Worse still in your case you lost at appeal so that is supporting the reason for refusal. Trying to spin out your appeal rights to get to 10 years is a pointless exercise given the deception refusal.
If you get to ten years and apply for ILR it will be a mandatory refusal for employing deception in your current visa application.
You have no choice but to carry on with your appeal to clear your name. If you fail to overturn the deception then you cannot possibly be granted ILR as by default you are not a person of good character.
If your rep is saying don't worry just get to 10 years and apply for ILR they are leading you down the wrong path.

nasirkhan · Post by **nasirkhan** » Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:23 pm

johndoe789 wrote:Thanks for your reply.

You mentioned that when I apply for the 10 year ILR there is a mandatory refusal.I read the guidance and immigration rules, when I will apply for ILR, the deception will be in the previous application not in the current application. The refusal due to the deception in the previous application will be on the Discretion' not mandatory [/https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _0_EXT.pdf].

I have just read this guidance and I am thinking that my solicitor is also saying right.

I am not arguing here as i am not a qualified person. I am just seeking your comments to the above gov uk guidance.

I really appreviate if Vinnay or other moderators comment on this.

I am also seeking help from the bank and Pakistan state bank for the bank mistake. As mentioned before, bank confirm everything in an email to me which hast been taking in to account as evidence and my appeal was refused.

regards

What would your answer be to the question "Have your ever used deception .. ...... ?"
that is there in every application form.

Frontier Mole · Post by **Frontier Mole** » Sat Oct 25, 2014 7:56 am

I am happy for the other gurus to pass comment.
Manci - what is your view?

One thing to note - regardless of what application once deception is the reason for refusal you are stuck with it. In your case doubely so as it deception was upheld in court.

johndoe789 · Post by **johndoe789** » Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:25 pm

Many thanks for your replies;

I do not know what to write against the deception part in the form. I can send HO all the bank's emails [more than 20 emails] and a letter if I am lucky to get one in the latter ILR application.

I am the worst victim of the bank's mistake. I have lots of the emails from the bank HQ, the concerned branch and the fraud and risk department which confirms the genuineness of my bank account.

I have also now, made a complaint in the UK HQ and explained them the situation. Please note that the banking system in Pakistan is not as the one in the UK. The people back there are really non-cooperative. If I knew this before I could have transfer the funds here in the UK.

I do not know that what to do. I have a clean history all of my life, a professional accountant even I do not have a small parking fine in my whole time spent in the UK while driving.

I really appreciate if you please help me in this.

Frontier Mole · Post by **Frontier Mole** » Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:37 pm

No one in UKVI will be remotely interested in the bank letters or emails. You have a deception refusal and until that is overturned it will be used against you.

nasirkhan · Post by **nasirkhan** » Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:38 pm

johndoe789 wrote:Many thanks for your replies;

I do not know what to write against the deception part in the form. I can send HO all the bank's emails [more than 20 emails] and a letter if I am lucky to get one in the latter ILR application.

I am the worst victim of the bank's mistake. I have lots of the emails from the bank HQ, the concerned branch and the fraud and risk department which confirms the genuineness of my bank account.

I have also now, made a complaint in the UK HQ and explained them the situation. Please note that the banking system in Pakistan is not as the one in the UK. The people back there are really non-cooperative. If I knew this before I could have transfer the funds here in the UK.

I do not know that what to do. I have a clean history all of my life, a professional accountant even I do not have a small parking fine in my whole time spent in the UK while driving.

I really appreciate if you please help me in this.

I don't have the knowledge to comment on your situation. The only advice I can give you is to seek professional advice from multiple sources, especially someone who has experience of a similar case. Good luck.

anthony1234 · Post by **anthony1234** » Sat Oct 25, 2014 6:05 pm

if u had 50k u dont need to come back in uk, its not a paradise. ur country pak is lot lot better than uk. 50k has no vlue here, but its alot in pak to do a reasonable biz.stay in pk its ur country ur ppl ur language ur soil.

johndoe789 · Post by **johndoe789** » Sat Oct 25, 2014 6:23 pm

anthony1234 wrote:if u had 50k u dont need to come back in uk, its not a paradise. ur country pak is lot lot better than uk. 50k has no vlue here, but its alot in pak to do a reasonable biz.stay in pk its ur country ur ppl ur language ur soil.

Please note that I am living in the UK for nearly 10 years and I have a professional life in the UK. I passed my ACCA, ACA, AAT, Graduation and Masters in the UK.

Cathie · Post by **Cathie** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 4:00 am

anthony1234 wrote:if u had 50k u dont need to come back in uk, its not a paradise. ur country pak is lot lot better than uk. 50k has no vlue here, but its alot in pak to do a reasonable biz.stay in pk its ur country ur ppl ur language ur soil.

I don't think his decision to stay in the UK is our business here and subject of or to our analysis. As you rightly said, it's his money, his people, his language. Whatever he does with that is his own business. If you have any problems with his intention to stay, you're entitled to it but this is not the forum to discuss it. The guy has a problem which he needs suggestions to deal with. There's nothing stopping anyone remaining in the UK if they meet the criteria. We don't make the laws. So give your suggestions if you have any and if you don't, just give your best wishes or stay silent.

Olasunkanmi · Post by **Olasunkanmi** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 6:50 am

@ johndoe789, my advice is that you should stick with your appeal to the end as some have advice you. If you are really genuine, then you will eventually get the deception allegation quash by a judge after which you can then apply for your ILR.

Don't rush applying for ILR now even if your lawyer think its the best idea, some of the lawyers sometimes make honest mistake.

It will only cost you extra few months to fight the deception allegation.

vinny · Post by **vinny** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:46 am

General grounds for refusal: considering leave to remain wrote:... should refuse their application under paragraph 322(2),when deception was used in a previous application, or ...

anthony1234 · Post by **anthony1234** » Tue Oct 28, 2014 9:21 pm

"I don't think his decision to stay in the UK is our business here and subject of or to our analysis. As you rightly said, it's his money, his people, his language. Whatever he does with that is his own business. If you have any problems with his intention to stay, you're entitled to it but this is not the forum to discuss it. The guy has a problem which he needs suggestions to deal with. There's nothing stopping anyone remaining in the UK if they meet the criteria. We don't make the laws. So give your suggestions if you have any and if you don't, just give your best wishes or stay silent".

i have givn him the suggestion by reading his situation, this is what the forum is about. ppl like u have nothing better to do, hence write this irrelevent rubbish long essays. i dont need ur advice or opinion giv advice to him if u hav,if not then b quite n mind ur own biz.

vinny · Post by **vinny** » Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:04 am

Without clearing the deception charges, it's likely that an out-of-time SET(LR) application will be refused with limited/no rights of appeal. How will your solicitor handle that?

A JR will probably be held at the UT too, but this time, all at your expense.

Obie · Post by **Obie** » Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:06 am

I am getting mad with these incompetent solicitors finding an easy way out, and living their clients to face the consequences.

He ought to have applied to the Upper Tribunal for permission to appeal.

The deception will have an adverse effect on your application and the UKVI could even impose a 10 years ban on applying, after the Upper Tribunal case is over.

I just could not understand, how the solicitor could do this.

johndoe789 · Post by **johndoe789** » Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:33 pm

I really appreciate for your responses.

I trusted my solicitor in this and I really do not know how on earth the is blindly taking me in to a disaster.

I desperately calling the bank and no one is picking up. The UK branch has forwarded the query back to them and they are saying they haven't responded yet.

After reading the above post I am now one step before the panic starts. I can again call the bank tomorrow and make sure I get what HO wants.

johndoe789 · Post by **johndoe789** » Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:44 pm

Hi Vinny,

Just read from your link.

Mandatory or discretionary
The Immigration Rules have two types of refusal on general grounds and it will depend on
the reasons you are using to refuse as to how you consider the application. If it is a
mandatory ground for refusal you must refuse the application, if it is a discretionary ground
for refusal then you can consider whether the circumstances allow you to use your
discretion.
Paragraph 322 of the rules sets out these general grounds for refusal:
 Mandatory refusals are in paragraphs 322(1) – 322(1C).
 Discretionary refusals are in paragraphs 322(2) to 322(12).

It says that the refusal is discretionary not mandatory under s322(2).

Could you please through some light on this?

regards

vinny wrote:
General grounds for refusal: considering leave to remain wrote:... should refuse their application under paragraph 322(2),when deception was used in a previous application, or ...

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