15/05/15 - Approved - Family Visit Visa (Multiple)

Hi All,

I just wanted to say a quick thank you to everyone in the forum! I got my mother-in-law and brother-in-law's visa approved today.

24/05/15 - Documents submitted to VAC.
12/05/15 - Decision made email
13/05/15 - Documents bank and passport with Visas.

Mother-in-law unemployed with no bank account and brother-in-law is a student.

I was expecting it to be denied but woot woot. Visa stamped for both of them! You really can't tell what the outcome is going to be. You just got to be very patient.

*Also worth mentioning - First try to apply for their visa and got lucky!

Congratulations, great news and hopefully they have a nice holiday

Can you please us by letting us know what all documents you submitted along with theirs and your immigration status in UK

Awesome and many congratulations

could you please share type of documents you submitted? Did you submit orignals? Did you submit only one set of documents or copies for both>?


Help will be much appreciated

regards
Vikram

All originals submitted and but since I submitted for 2x applicants, the other are copies. I had to mention everything on the essay part that there were two applications.

Documents we submitted are;

For my mother-in-law and brother-in-law;
-Applicant’s passport and passport photo
-Birth certificates of Mother-in-law and Brother-in-law
-Marriage certificate of my mother-in-law and certificate of no marriage of my brother-in-law
-Proof of medical condition for my mother-in-law inc x-rays.
-Graduation certificate of my brother-in-law from last course and enrollment certificate for november
-Sponsorship form (From parents and us)
-Letter from us confirming remittance (Managing the shop)
-Business permits (Under my wife's name)
-Completed visa application form – VAF1B
-Invitation letter from sponsor (From parents and us)
-Statement from myself and my wife inviting them
-Statement of my mother-in-law and brother-in-law about their intention to visit
-Evidence of accommodation i.e. copy of title/morgtage payments
-Home office letter confirming permission to stay in the UK of the sponsor(s)
o Proof of my Parents citizenship
o Proof of my Indefinite Leave to Remain status
o Photocopy of my Wife's passport/visa
-Payslips of sponsor(s) – 6x Months (My Parents, myself and my wife's)
-Bank statement of sponsor(s) – 6x Months (My Parents, myself and my wife's)
-Letter from myself explaining why I submitted a printed copy of my bank statement with bank stamp
-Bank Statement of my Brother-in-law (Proof of our monthly remittances)
-Employment certificate of sponsor(s)
-Family photos

I submitted everything as in your application plus additions as siblings/children to remain back in Pakistan except medical condition but they refused the visa for my mother-in-law and sister-in-law stating that you do not have any evidence of personal financial circumstances. My father-in-law does not have an account and only earns PKR30,000 which is mostly spent in the month so savings is hardly anything and I wanted to sponsor my mother-in-law to visit us.

I think Immigration rules also allow the trip to be funded by third party and yet ECO's refuse the visa with no right of appeal now and future applications with a text that " we will consider every application on its own merits" but they will be refused unless
i) your circumstances change (well hell yeah they wont - I'm trying to explain things)
ii) Provide compelling evidence (what evidence do I provide - having written clear supporting letter)

edwinuk wrote:Documents we submitted are;

For my mother-in-law and brother-in-law;
-Applicant’s passport and passport photo
-Birth certificates of Mother-in-law and Brother-in-law
-Marriage certificate of my mother-in-law and certificate of no marriage of my brother-in-law
-Proof of medical condition for my mother-in-law inc x-rays.
-Graduation certificate of my brother-in-law from last course and enrollment certificate for november
-Sponsorship form (From parents and us)
-Letter from us confirming remittance (Managing the shop)
-Business permits (Under my wife's name)
-Completed visa application form – VAF1B
-Invitation letter from sponsor (From parents and us)
-Statement from myself and my wife inviting them
-Statement of my mother-in-law and brother-in-law about their intention to visit
-Evidence of accommodation i.e. copy of title/morgtage payments
-Home office letter confirming permission to stay in the UK of the sponsor(s)
o Proof of my Parents citizenship
o Proof of my Indefinite Leave to Remain status
o Photocopy of my Wife's passport/visa
-Payslips of sponsor(s) – 6x Months (My Parents, myself and my wife's)
-Bank statement of sponsor(s) – 6x Months (My Parents, myself and my wife's)
-Letter from myself explaining why I submitted a printed copy of my bank statement with bank stamp
-Bank Statement of my Brother-in-law (Proof of our monthly remittances)
-Employment certificate of sponsor(s)
-Family photos

what country did they apply in? I take it this also matters as they don't call it beloved but high risk countries

Can you possibly post the full refusal text?

SIL refusal reads

"You have applied for a visa along with your mother. I note that her visa application has been refused since she did not satisfy the ECO that her circumstances are as she claims. Therefore I am not satisfied that your circumstances are also as you have claimed. I am not satisfied as to your intentions in wishing to travel to the United Kingdom now. As a result I am not satisfied that you are genuinely seeking entry to the United Kingdom as a visitor or that you intend to leave at the end of your proposed visit. 41(i)(ii)

I have therefore refused your application because I am not satisfied on the balance of probabilities that you meet all of the requirements of the relevant Paragraphs(s) of the United Kingdom Immigration rules."


MIL refusal reads
You state in your application form that you are supported by your spouse and as evidence of your circumstances you have submitted your marriage ceritifcate, sponose passport copy, letter of support, spouse employer letter, evidence of your daughters education and property ownership doucments. From the documents I am not satisfied with your familys personal and financial circumstances. These doucments alone do not indicate how you support yoruself and your family.

Did you submit your sponsor's bank statements and payslips?

edwinuk wrote:Did you submit your sponsor's bank statements and payslips?

Yes Edwin

I forgot to mention the first reason for MIL refusal is that they could not contact the sponsor which is not true as I received no call either at my workplace or my mobile (has missed call notified) or my home phone (callerid)

Sponsors Bank Statements with over £4k balance and remaining around the same in the last 6 months
Employment Letter
Original Payslips (non company headed) with support letter from Employer
Council Tax Bill
Landlord Letter

What do you think, any ideas/suggestion.

Do you think the refusal was unjustified?

We've reapplied with SIL bank statements and confirming my phone number and working hours ..

Application received at Abu Dhabi on 22nd May 2015 and still no call again ..I'm worried

Looking at the refusal text, it sounds like you do not have a problem with the sponsor but mainly from her ties back home.

-How is she supported?
-Has she got any properties under her name?
-Has she got any dependants?

You need to address your MIL's refusal first. What are the documents you submitted for her application?

edwinuk wrote:You need to address your MIL's refusal first. What are the documents you submitted for her application?

No property under her name

Supported by spouse - letter of support provided
Spouse Property Documents - Provided
Spouse Employment Letter - Provided (stating salary paid in cash)
Spouse Bank Statement - not provided as he does not have one and never required
Ties - 16 year old daugher passport copy provided along with 18 year son both staying behind provided
Marriage Ceritifcate: Married for 27 years ..why leave 27years of marriage to stay behind in UK on visit visa being grandmother at age of 47?
No dependents (as in no one depends on her financially)

Previous travel history provided as I used to be in UAE before and I've sponsored her there when I got married yes I agree the immigration rules are totally different

Trip sponsored by me so the question is bank statements a must? if yes why does the immigration rules grant a sponsor? yes I agree you need to show social and economical ties but given the above isnt that sufficient..only thing remaining is bank statement from MIL.

SIL has new account and 3 month bank statement was provided

Would you mind sharing what you put on your cover letter or statement with regards to you MIL's status? I.e. Why is she coming to the UK, what her circumstances back home etc.

I mean the actual text on the cover letter you submitted previously to the HO.

edwinuk wrote:Would you mind sharing what you put on your cover letter or statement with regards to you MIL's status? I.e. Why is she coming to the UK, what her circumstances back home etc.

I mean the actual text on the cover letter you submitted previously to the HO.

To Entry Clearance Officer,
Regarding: SIL (DOB) national of Pakistan and MIL (DOB) national of Pakistan

I am writing to confirm that SIL is my mother in law, SIL is my sister-in-law and I would like to invite them to visit me in Location from xx/xx/xx until xx/xx/xxxx. The purpose of their visit is to spend time with me and my family which includes MyWife their daughter and sister respectively and my children Myson and Mydaughter and also doing some sight-seeing while they are here.
I’m currently working for MyEmployer at ADDRESS as a Mypost. My employment with MyEmployer began on StartDate and I’m currently on Tier 2 (General) visa sponsored by MyEmployer. I have enclosed a letter from my employer.

I currently receive £xxxxxx per annum excluding annual bonus and I have enclosed evidence of this as original payslips supported by employer letter confirming their authenticity. I will be supporting MIL and SIL during their stay in the UK and will bear all the expenses during their trip. I have provided my bank statements in original from FromDate – EndDate(last 5 months) and printed statements from the bank accompanying a letter of why they are not stamped. Please note that the statements were printed in the branch as stated on them and the letter confirms the balance on the date of printing. The original statements from FromDate until EndDate were not issued at the time (recent month before application) of preparing this application and bank is more than happy to receive a call to confirm the printed statements authenticity although they assured Home Office will accept it.

I confirm that MIL and SIL will be staying at my residence at MyAddress which is a large two bedroom property and I believe is suitable for their short stay. I have included a letter from my landlord confirming my tenancy and his no objection letter. I have also signed a sponsorship undertaking form providing my national insurance number. I would be very grateful if you would approve request for a UK visa so that they can visit me and my family.

Yours faithfully

These are your statement tho. Have you a statement from you MIL explaining in detail about her status? Similar to yours but explaining her side of the story.

Also have you the full text or statement from her spouse about supporting her?

What I am trying to establish is an explanation with regards to your MIL's status and life back home. ECO needs to understand what her situation is, if its incomplete they don't bother asking you how and when etc,.. They just want a story. A clear story of how, when, where and what. Get that right and you'll be fine.

Reading your statement doesn't really give much about your MIL/SIL's lives back home.

edwinuk wrote:These are your statement tho. Have you a statement from you MIL explaining in detail about her status? Similar to yours but explaining her side of the story.

Also have you the full text or statement from her spouse about supporting her?

What I am trying to establish is an explanation with regards to your MIL's status and life back home. ECO needs to understand what her situation is, if its incomplete they don't bother asking you how and when etc,.. They just want a story. A clear story of how, when, where and what. Get that right and you'll be fine.

Reading your statement doesn't really give much about your MIL/SIL's lives back home.

Its my invitation letter ..so doesn't describe what they do back home..

The application form itself explains what they do..SIL provided course enrollment letter


The spouse letter goes here


Letter from Spouse/Father

I write to confirm that my wife MIL born on DOB and daughter SIL born on DOB would like to travel to United Kingdom to visit their daughter and sister respectively and I have no objection in this and can assure that they will return back to Pakistan after their proposed visit as their other son/brother Name and daughter/sister Name remain in Pakistan with me while they are away. I’ve provided passport photocopies of their passport along with mines to confirm relationship. Apart from this I’ve also included my marriage certificate and its translation.

I’m currently working as Position at EmployerName 2009 and my monthly salary is PKR xxxxx and a letter from the employer is provided confirming that the salary. With my salary at PKR xxxxx I’ve never felt the need of opening an account and then paying in the salary amount only to have it paid out with bills and other living expenses. The salary is received in cash and the employer keeps a register where the employees sign to confirm they have received their salary. I’ve also got a property in Pakistan under my name where all of us including the applicants stay – the property is also semi-commercial and I’ve provided relevant documents attested from foreign affair. The trip to United Kingdom will be financed by my son-in-law Name and I believe all necessary documents have been provided. I understand from him that typically in UK payslip are provided however it is not a requirement in Pakistan and hence I was unable to provide this and given that my son-in-law Name has confirmed he will be able to accommodate and maintain the applications I humbly request you to grant the appropriate visa. If there is any further information you may require please get in touch.


Within Application form from SIL
THE TRIP IS BEING SPONSORED BY MY BROTHER IN LAW Name AND THEREFORE SOME OF THE ANSWERS IN THIS FORM HAVE 0 FOR EXPENDITURE. HE HAS PREVIOUSLY FINANCED OUR TRIP IN 2008 TO UNITED ARAB EMIRATES WHEN MY SISTER GOT
MARRIED. I ALSO VISITED UNITED ARAB EMIRATES IN 2014 AND AGAIN THE TRIP WAS SPONSORED AND I SUBSEQUENTLY RETURNED TO PAKISTAN WHERE I HAVE STRONG FAMILY TIES. (list of relatives provided with address and numbers)

Within Application form from MIL
THE TRIP IS BEING SPONSORED BY MY SON IN LAW Name HENCE SOME OF MY ANSWERS SAY 0 IN THE EXPENDITURE SECTION. PREVIOUSLY HE SPONSORED OUR VISIT IN 2008 TO THE UNITED ARAB EMIRATES WHEN MY DAUGHTER GOT MARRIED TO HIM AND SUBSEQUENTLY SHE MOVED TO UK.

Thanks for that. See below suggestions and feedback;

-APPLICANTS-
-Statement from your MIL and her spouse.
-Statement from your SIL.
-If SIL is student, letter from her school confirming leave.
-If SIL is working, letter from her employment confirming leave. Also include work certificates and payslips.
-SIL's bank statement if available. If there are lump sump deposits, explain and show proof where it came from and why.
-Provide proof of Marriage between MIL and spouse i.e. Marriage certificate
-Provide proof of ties between MIL and daugher/sister.
-Provide proof of "other son/brother" and "daugher/sister" in Pakistan and MIL/Sister's ties to them. i.e. Birth certificates and photos.
-Income of spouse needs a valid proof. I know you said he gets it in cash but you need something official i.e. is he paying taxes? Can you not get a tax receipt etc or social security contributions? Something to confirm there is "that" money. Letter from employment is good but you need to provide something better to back it up.
-If you send them remittances via western union or any other means, show and provide that as well and mention it on your statement.
-Title/Deed copy of property and possibly proof of billing of applicant's showing address is the same as the property being declared. Something official 1 or 2 receipts that are paid monthly. If not, can your local government issue a statement or possibly voter's registration card showing an address?

---

-SPONSORS-
-Invitation letter from you. Something dramatic and detailed.
-Statement from you explaining your status here and few mentions of the status and condition of the applicants.
-Sponsor your MIL/SIL. Try to get a sponsorship undertaking and have yourself and your wife (If working) to sponsor them not just you.
-Your bank statements and payslips including employment certificates.
-Proof of property, something official confirming number of bedrooms. If renting, a letter from your landlord confirming that he's got no objection.
-If renting or mortgage, proof of payments.

*If you have your parents or close relative, get them to sponsor as well with the same documents i.e. work certificates/bank statements/payslips etc. I sponsored my MIL and BIL together with my wife and my parents. Invited them with reasons to meet some of our relatives here in the UK.

---

-EXTRAS-
-You can create an itinerary for their trip i.e. where you plan to take them etc.

If I think of a few more I will add here. I am at work and rushed to respond to your post.

edwinuk wrote:Thanks for that. See below suggestions and feedback;

-APPLICANTS-
-Statement from your MIL and her spouse.
-Statement from your SIL.
-If SIL is student, letter from her school confirming leave.
-If SIL is working, letter from her employment confirming leave. Also include work certificates and payslips.
-SIL's bank statement if available. If there are lump sump deposits, explain and show proof where it came from and why.
-Provide proof of Marriage between MIL and spouse i.e. Marriage certificate
-Provide proof of ties between MIL and daugher/sister.
-Provide proof of "other son/brother" and "daugher/sister" in Pakistan and MIL/Sister's ties to them. i.e. Birth certificates and photos.
-Income of spouse needs a valid proof. I know you said he gets it in cash but you need something official i.e. is he paying taxes? Can you not get a tax receipt etc or social security contributions? Something to confirm there is "that" money. Letter from employment is good but you need to provide something better to back it up.
-If you send them remittances via western union or any other means, show and provide that as well and mention it on your statement.
-Title/Deed copy of property and possibly proof of billing of applicant's showing address is the same as the property being declared. Something official 1 or 2 receipts that are paid monthly. If not, can your local government issue a statement or possibly voter's registration card showing an address?

---

-SPONSORS-
-Invitation letter from you. Something dramatic and detailed.
-Statement from you explaining your status here and few mentions of the status and condition of the applicants.
-Sponsor your MIL/SIL. Try to get a sponsorship undertaking and have yourself and your wife (If working) to sponsor them not just you.
-Your bank statements and payslips including employment certificates.
-Proof of property, something official confirming number of bedrooms. If renting, a letter from your landlord confirming that he's got no objection.
-If renting or mortgage, proof of payments.

*If you have your parents or close relative, get them to sponsor as well with the same documents i.e. work certificates/bank statements/payslips etc. I sponsored my MIL and BIL together with my wife and my parents. Invited them with reasons to meet some of our relatives here in the UK.

---

-EXTRAS-
-You can create an itinerary for their trip i.e. where you plan to take them etc.

If I think of a few more I will add here. I am at work and rushed to respond to your post.

Thanks edwin...all of this was provided already

-SIL Letter from College confirming the holidays
-Marriage certificate of MIL
-Ties between MIL and daugther sister was provided as our Marriage Ceritifcate
-MIL Marriage Ceritificate was provided too
-Proof of other brother and sister was provided as passport photocopy
-Hardly anyone in Pakistan pays taxes so apart from employer letter and declaration there is nothing more to provide
-I dont support them so I dont send any money from here
-Title deed or property attested by high court was also provided
-Sponsorship declaration form was filled and provided for both found at https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... p-form.pdf
-Employement letter was provided with original payslips and bank statements
-Letter from landlord was provided with property inventory showing photos dimensions of all the rooms with council tax bill too


So the only thing missing is bank statements from MIL spouse but he doesn't have it ..so means no visa then? You see I provided quite long list of documents and the refusal read could not contact sponsor...I can't understand where they called..why didn't I get the call, missed call notification or even a voicemail.

Hmmmm... Have you tried contacting them via UKBI contact form and explain what happened? That is a bit odd.

Only problem I can think of is MIL's spouse's income really. I know not a lot of people pays taxes but proof of income will always be in a form of a payslip unless it is paid in case which will then be considered as self-employment and if taxes aren't paid then that does not look good.

Even if you were sponsoring them, ECO will need something to show how they maintain themselves back home. Unfortunately, a letter from employer without payslips or bank statement showing this will raise doubts.

edwinuk wrote:Hmmmm... Have you tried contacting them via UKBI contact form and explain what happened? That is a bit odd.

Only problem I can think of is MIL's spouse's income really. I know not a lot of people pays taxes but proof of income will always be in a form of a payslip unless it is paid in case which will then be considered as self-employment and if taxes aren't paid then that does not look good.

Even if you were sponsoring them, ECO will need something to show how they maintain themselves back home. Unfortunately, a letter from employer without payslips or bank statement showing this will raise doubts.

Yes I contacted them and the answer was (this was not a complaint)

"Thank you for contacting the UK Visas and Immigration International Enquiry
service.

With regards to your query, we would like to inform you that we operate on a non-advisory policy and hence can not advise, guide and/or recommend a particular choice of visa type which might be based on your personal circumstances. Only general information is provided and you have to decide accordingly. Please visit the following link for detailed information on various visa types for the UK. https://www.gov.uk/browse/visas-immigration. Please refer to the relevant sections below, to find answers to most
questions listed in the sections below."

Yes no where here it says provide bank statements or evidence of financial circumstances but I agree we need to provide evidence of returning which is family to return to? 27 years of marriage for MIL and live here illegally? SIL in middle of course leaving behind siblings? ...previous travel history, travelled twice to UAE to visit us.

The payslips are not provided by the employer and even if does its going to be no different to the employment letter is it, same letter head, the employer a 4* hotel even wrote a letter that salary is paid in cash.

On the other hand my mom applied for a visa without my dad's bank statement or financial circumstances, even without my passport copy and visa and the ECO granted her visa.....(The ECO actually emailed my mom to say evidence of family is missing please provide their copy and visa - how nice) but most of the ECO don't bother..

so conclusion is no bank statement no visa? I will ask him to open but that will take another 6 months...and what is the chance of ECO not rejecting and telling your salary PKR30,000 is not sufficient and I'm not satisfied on the balance of probablities...etcetc

Bank statement isn't really important if you are sponsoring. Reading the refusal text, it is more likely that the ECO is not satisfied or your story does not add up - Not enough proof. I can only assume this is because the bank statements submitted are under your MIL's spouse. This is one. It isn't under her name hence the many questions. Second, where is the money and how is it getting there? Third, does she have access to these funds and is she able to use it? These are things that the ECO likely based his decisions.

This is why when preparing an application, you'd normally draft a story first and start collecting proof. In your situation, you already submitted and stated that your MIL is supported by her husband. You provided proof but it is extremely hard to prove with limited documents you have. Heck, my MIL did not even submit any bank statements. Yet she got the visa.

You basically think of it this way... You tell a story, you back the story up with evidence. If you tell a story and it does not add up or does not have enough documents to back it up or satisfy the ECO, it gets refused.

A hotel paying in cash to it's employee? Who pays the tax? Is this legal in your home country? --- This just generates more questions regardless of a letter from her employer. This won't be questioned if only there is a payslip which are also reflected on his bank account and is paid bi-weekly/monthly etc.

Employment letter if not back by payslips does raise doubts. There are instances where a family member works for a company and issues a letter of employment etc. But with payslips, it takes into consideration the taxes which are clearly reflected on each pay. Taxes are via government which is considered official and can not easily be ignored.

The ECO's refusal stated that he's not satisfied with their financial situation i.e. they aren't sure how they are funding their day to day expenses back home which can mean that they can only assume that they have to look for an alternative source of income somewhere else which then flags the - "They will probably overstay" reason.

Totally agree with you with ECO's attitude towards balance of probabilities but without a solid official proofs it will all depend on whichever ECO reviews the case.

And yes, married couple for years perhaps longer than your MIL and her spouse does seek entry and overstays their visa no matter being away from their love ones for however long hence HO being extremely strict.

edwinuk wrote:Bank statement isn't really important if you are sponsoring. Reading the refusal text, it is more likely that the ECO is not satisfied or your story does not add up - Not enough proof. I can only assume this is because the bank statements submitted are under your MIL's spouse. This is one. It isn't under her name hence the many questions. Second, where is the money and how is it getting there? Third, does she have access to these funds and is she able to use it? These are things that the ECO likely based his decisions.

A hotel paying in cash to it's employee? Who pays the tax? Is this legal in your home country? --- This just generates more questions regardless of a letter from her employer. This won't be questioned if only there is a payslip which are also reflected on his bank account and is paid bi-weekly/monthly etc.

Employment letter if not back by payslips does raise doubts. There are instances where a family member works for a company and issues a letter of employment etc. But with payslips, it takes into consideration the taxes which are clearly reflected on each pay. Taxes are via government which is considered official and can not easily be ignored.

The ECO's refusal stated that he's not satisfied with their financial situation i.e. they aren't sure how they are funding their day to day expenses back home which can mean that they can only assume that they have to look for an alternative source of income somewhere else which then flags the - "They will probably overstay" reason.

Totally agree with you with ECO's attitude towards balance of probabilities but without a solid official proofs it will all depend on whichever ECO reviews the case.

And yes, married couple for years perhaps longer than your MIL and her spouse does seek entry and overstays their visa no matter being away from their love ones for however long hence HO being extremely strict.

Google says:
According to the International Development Committee, Pakistan had a lower-than-average tax take. Only 0.57% of Pakistanis, or 768,000 people out of a population of 190 million pay income tax.

so perhaps the employer is not paying taxes either to avoid hence no payslips, if the ECO has made up the mind he is not satisfied then he will keep picking up one reason or the other.. so MIL is getting punished because of her spouse employment.

So in my case it won't be possible to get a visa then as there will be no payslip but an account can be opened and wait for 6 monthly statements.