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Enforcement of European Union rights for Citizens in Ireland

Forum to discuss all things Blarney | Ireland immigration

Moderators: Casa, push, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, meself2, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, archigabe, Administrator

injasuti
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EU rights for my non-EU kids

Post by injasuti » Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:24 pm

I'm a recently naturalised Irish citizen and my two dependent sons have had their applications for permanent residence refused on the basis that "they are dependents of an Irish national" and "not a family member of an EU citizen as defined by the Regulations".

This sounds like nonsense to me - can someone explaing this to me?

Ben
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Re: EU rights for my non-EU kids

Post by Ben » Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:38 pm

injasuti wrote:I'm a recently naturalised Irish citizen and my two dependent sons have had their applications for permanent residence refused on the basis that "they are dependents of an Irish national" and "not a family member of an EU citizen as defined by the Regulations".

This sounds like nonsense to me - can someone explaing this to me?
If you are an Irish citizen and resident in Ireland, European freedom of movement of persons regulations (Directive 2004/38/EC), does not apply to you.

As an Irish citizen who is resident in Ireland, applications for your two dependent sons to reside in Ireland must be made in accordance with Irish national law.
I am no longer posting publicly on this website - PM me if needed.

archigabe
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Re: EU rights for my non-EU kids

Post by archigabe » Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:49 pm

injasuti wrote:I'm a recently naturalised Irish citizen and my two dependent sons have had their applications for permanent residence refused on the basis that "they are dependents of an Irish national" and "not a family member of an EU citizen as defined by the Regulations".

This sounds like nonsense to me - can someone explaing this to me?
Are they under 18 years of age?

injasuti
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EU rights for my non-EU kids (cont.)

Post by injasuti » Sat Oct 18, 2008 10:30 am

My kids are 18 (leaving cert year and Stamp 2A - not allowed to work without a work permit) and 20 (in 2nd year of university and on a "Stamp 2" - may work 20hrs a week) and have lived in Ireland for over 8 years. Both are still entirely dependent upon their parents.

I need to get them up on their own feet but am being required to register them and pay the €150 every year for them.

archigabe
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Post by archigabe » Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:22 pm

This is the form for naturalisation...and the information leaflet here. unfortunately, quite a bit is left to the discretion of the minister of justice.One of the conditions also being that they should have had 'reckonable residence' of four out of the previous 8 years.

el_nino
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Post by el_nino » Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:47 pm

Hi LOST Soul, how did the application process going for your daughter?

walrusgumble
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Post by walrusgumble » Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:06 pm

martind wrote:
walrusgumble wrote: You do realise what you are saying is over generalising and deflamatory, with hints of absolute beloved. every one else is annoyed by the way they are treated but at least they can intelligently discuss their problems.

if people actually belived you, you would be on your way to inciting hatred which my dear boy is a punishable offence. last i saw europe have not being fining ireland.

i recommend that you check out european barometers, its funny casue the european union and transparency international consider ireland to be in the top table for least corrupt countries in the world.

you might need to note, that it was the irish courts who sent the cases to europe. it was the irish courts who have and will continue to have no problem ruling against ireland when its out of line
Actually walrusgrumble, you sound like someone who makes empty threats in an attempt to shut up criticism. Take it from an Irish American who now lives in the UK. Astartes has a right to free speech, and your attitude is undemocratic. Your attempts to threaten him because of his opinions are beyond ridiculous. Imagine the US trying to censor the rubbish "Team America" because it is "defamatory". Most Irish newspapers say much worse things about the US than what Astartes (rightly or wrongly) has been saying here about Ireland. Your excessive reaction does smack of low self-esteem.

Whatever you think of his opinions, you can't shut him down without addressing his arguments. Childish claims of "defamation" and equating criticism with crime put you in a bad light.

Your rants don't help the image of Ireland, and sadden me as an Irish American. I never imagined that Ireland would do to foreigners precisely what others did to Irish immigrants not that long ago. One always learns new things about human nature.

About corruption... Bertie Ahern is under investigation for multiple corruption cases. Transparency International doesn't measure corruption but the national perception of corruption -- it simply says that people in Ireland don't have much problem with their government being corrupt, i.e. they are used to it. It's like the famous fact that Nigerians have the highest happiness self-estimation despite the situation in their country. I know few Irishmen who don't complain continuously that their leaders receive brown envelopes.
its even sadder when you read someone's comments and it seems clear that some people, who have probably spent all their live speeching the english language, have difficulty understanding the english language and serious difficulties in read and understanding an author's post in FULL before commenting.

1. you refer to empty threats, where are they? no threats were made by me expressly or implicitly. I am not trying to shut anyone up nor am i suggesting otherwise. THIS AFTERALL IS A DISCUSSION BOARD. Yes free speach is a good thing. The gentleman in question made his view, which, in my view wre pretty hysterical. I am expressing my view and giving reasons for my view. That is allowed in a democratic world, last time i checked. EIther way, we can all leave the computer screen, safe in the knowledge that no one is going to get hurt or worse... issue of democracy has nothing to do with this discussion.

2. There was an error, albeit, a serious error, in the eyes of the european court, that Ireland failed to transpoe EU Law into domestic sphere. Ireland is that the first or last country in Europe to be brought to court over EU Freedom Of Movement Regulations

3. Did non EU people in Ireland get harrassed, arrested, spied upon, beaten up by Irish Authorities? NO!, Where they given a fair right to make there complaints to the COurt? YEs. WHere they successful? Yes. THis does not appear to the the so called kind of country that the original author makes this state be. What's his country like???? BY THE WAY, IN CASE YOU HAVE DIFFICULTIES,

RE: Your comment on on defamatory without addressing his comments. that is a good one!!!! you sure you can read??? i made it very clear what i was referering to defamation. It was in response to the orginal man's references to corruption and incompetence. Yes i said he was talking nonsense, but read my bloody post again, i refer to how people won/obtained their rights via irish court room!!!!!!! read no 3 again and number 6 - you might notice why i feel the author, although absolutely entitled to criticise the state, appears, unlike other crticial people, a tad bit hysterical - like a bad villian in a bond film!

4. Take your American conspiracy nonsense out of it. My post is very blunt, yes, but its crystal clear. My problem with the original poster is not that he/she is criticising my country, it not that he/she is demanding my country to be accountable; it the issue that the authors post comes across as our country is ungrateful etc, just like the way other EU countries talked down at the Irish during the Lisbon Treaty. Freedom of speech has nothing to do with this, in that i am not attacking the author's freedom of speech. You know and i know, how far he would go shouting that out on the streets. You do realise what incitement to hatred is and why many countries have brought it in? granted what was said by my self up above may have being a slight bit heavy, but it was not threat explicit or implicit.

I also suggested to the author (Providing evidence to support my argument) of European Barometers,which are complied by EU agencies that would strongly suggest that the hysterical comments made by the author are nonsense Ireland is pro europe and not the bug dearly beloved bad boy the author seems to think it is. like i say, its not actually like Ireland have being the only EU country that has being taken to the courts over the recent directive 2004 / 38 EC!!!!!!!

5. You being of Irish decent, should know full well, Irish people do not like being talked down to or spoken or lectured "at".

6. With regard to the fining of Ireland, i wil say again, Europe has not fined over this. Irish Judges (remember different from Irish Politicans) sent this case to Europe, Europe ruled, and the IRish courts made sure Politicans changed the law. Thats hardly corruption. Whatever, one says about former Justice Minister, Michael McDowell (ye he has is facist tendancies, hardly a dearly beloved though he was barrister in the famous Fajujonu case in 1990) he is not someone who could be considered corrupt.

7. my "rants" and Ireland's image?? sweet mother of jesus devine christ. you would be correct, absolutely correct,, IF, you had properly construed my "rants". Word of advice, you worry about your own country's image if thats the case,(butting in with not an ounce of a clue of whats going on). You had the cheek to bring facial issues into it. there was absolutely no need, becasue THERE was none inteneded.

8. corruption in ireland. yes this is a sorry state, and there are plenty of more horror stories to come. but the way the author was going on, you would swear that corruption was rampant in EVERY DEPARTMENT. just because Ireland messed up in the free movement rules it does not mean the authors of the irish legislation were corrupt. if so, indicate some proof. as stated at paragraph 1 and 2, there was a serious error in law made, its possible that mistakes can be made!!!!

they were, although in the wrong, doing what they thought to be in the states interest, in light of cases such as akrich. (please dont tell you you need to be spelt out the legal defintion of "corruption") SEE argument no 1 (are you begining to see what i mean that it seems to me that the author's comments seems hysterical in the context of free movement of person??)


by the way, dont, even bother relying, if you are not capable or willing to read posts in full.

archigabe
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six-month time frame allowed under EU law

Post by archigabe » Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:38 pm

Last Friday, the High Court in Ireland delivered its judgement in the case of John Tagni v the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, where a judicial review was sought on this issue. The applicant is represented by Brophy Solicitors.

Judge John Edwards found that the six-month time frame allowed under EU law for the Minister to decide an application was mandatory in all cases. The judge found that, even where the Minister is uncertain about the nature of an application but the applicant has provided all the required documentation, the residence card must be granted within the six month period
. A residence card can be revoked in cases of fraud.

While the judge also stated that there was no time limit in respect of reviews of decisions to refuse an application for a residence card, a period of consideration of more than three months would generally constitute an unreasonable delay. The EC is currently dealing with a number of complaints from people who have been waiting more than a year for a final decision on their application for a residence card.
http://www.immigrantcouncil.ie/newslett ... .php?id=75

msmoby_ru
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Post by msmoby_ru » Sat May 15, 2010 9:07 am

Thought I would add to the list of Ireland's non-compliance with 2004/38/EC

My family wish to visit Eire from the UK.. I am an EU Citizen ( a UK / IRL passport holder) and chose to wear my UK 'hat'.. My family mebers are Russian, but holders of a UK Residency card sating "family members of EEA national" and are therefore ENTITLED ( as far as 20004/38/EC is concerned) to enter Eire without a Visa..

Sadly, the Irish websire says 'different' >>Please note that a Schengen or UK visa or residence permission is NOT valid for travel to Ireland. If you are a national of a visa-required country you will need to apply for an Irish visa in advance of travel to Ireland.<< ..

So I wrote to to Irish Embassy in London..


Here is the correspondence, so far..

My orig letter:

My Non - EU family members are on a UK Residency Card CLEARLY marked " Family members of EEA national." [ I am a UK Citizen that has exercised his treaty right living / working abroad.. Yet your web site says they need a visa.

We note that 2004/38/EC has been in force since April 2006 and refer you to page 6 of http://ec.europa.eu/commission_barroso/ ... _ec_en.pdf

"Residence card
= no visa
Possession of the valid residence card issued by any Member State exempts the family members from the visa requirement in all Member States."

Please advise why your website clearly breaches this Directive..

It is our intention to use your response / or lack of in a formal complaint to the EU Commission.

Tel no. xxxx We would email you, but there is no facility mentioned, and HOW can you charge us to call your visa line, if it is supposed to be FREE?

Yours disappointed,

Mark


Irish Embassy response:

Dear Mark,

Please see the actual Directive http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 123:EN:PDF
" ( 8 ) With a view to facilitating the free movement of family members who are not nationals of a Member State, those who have already obtained a residence card should be exempted from the requirement to obtain an entry visa within the meaning of Council Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 of 15 March 2001 listing the third countries whose nationals must be in possession of visas when crossing the external borders and those whose nationals are exempt from that requirement 1 or, where appropriate, of the applicable national legislation."

and Article 5

"2. Family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national law. For the purposes of this Directive, possession of the valid residence card referred to in Article 10 shall exempt such family members from the visa requirement."

The holder of a Residence Card is exmpt from the the visa requirements laid down by Council Regulation (EC) No 539/2001.

Please see Council Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 of 15 March 2001 http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 007:EN:PDF and note that it does not apply to Ireland or UK.

" (4) Pursuant to Article 1 of the Protocol on the position of the United Kingdom and Ireland annexed to the Treaty on European Union and to the Treaty establishing the European Community, Ireland and the United Kingdom are not participating in the adoption of this Regulation. Consequently and without prejudice to Article 4 of the aforementioned Protocol, the provisions of this Regulation apply neither to Ireland nor to the United Kingdom."

Finally, please see Statutory Instrument No 656 of 2006 http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/SI656of2 ... of2006.pdf which gives effect to Council Directive 38/2004 in Irish law and note

"(3) (a) A qualifying family member, who is a member of a class of non-nationals not specified in an order made under section 17 of the Immigration Act 2004 (No. 1 of 2004) as not requiring an Irish visa, shall be in possession of a valid Irish visa as a condition to being granted permission to enter the State."

The Visa Helpline is provided by a private company and is not free. http://www.embassyofireland.co.uk/home/ ... x?id=49654

xxxxx,

Visa Office,
Embassy of Ireland,
London


my response to the Irish Embassy:

Dear xxxxx,

Thanks for your prompt response.

We note your your reference to 539/2001, but AGAIN(!) remind you that Ireland was a signatory to the newer Directive 2004/38/EC and your implementation of same does not include provision for the "family members of EEA nationals" Residence cards issued under 2004/38/EC.

I refer you to the EU's Justice website, where legal opinion is offered to the areas of non-compliance by Eire

http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/doc_ce ... nce_en.pdf

Reference Article 5.2 of 2004/38/EC and Eire's incorrect interpretation Reg4(3)(a) [ bottom of page 8 , top of page 9 ]

2004/38/EC version:

>> Family members who are not nationals
of a Member State shall only be required
to have an entry visa in accordance with
Regulation
(EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national law.
For the purposes of this Directive,
possession of the valid residence card
referred to in Article 10 shall exempt such
family members from the visa
requirement
. <<

Eire's version:

>>(3) (a) A qualifying family member, who is a member of a
class of non-nationals not specified in an order made under
section 17 of the Immigration Act 2004 (No. 1 of 2004) as
not requiring an Irish visa, shall be in possession of a valid
Irish visa as a condition to being granted permission to enter the State.

Legal opinion - as expressed by EU Justice website:

Incomplete transposition
The latest Order made pursuant to s17 of
Immigration Act 2004 only lists States that are
also listed in Regulation (EC) No 539/2001. See SI 657/2006. There is a potential for this to
change, so it should be kept under review.
The problem with transposition of this
provision is that no attempt has been made to
transpose the exemption [for a Visa] for valid residence
card holders.
<<


It is also regrettable that your answer re the VISA helpline not being free 'as it is run by a private company ' in no way covers Eire's obligation to aid the provisions of the Directive for FREEDOM of movement for EEA nationals and their family members. Charges cannot be levied to such categories.


It is now our intention to formerly complain to the EU Commission - we hope that such complaints will bring about full compliance to the intended spirit of such Directives and hope that you will forward my response and observations in the forlorn hope that that my family members ARE treated correctly, and allowed entry, in compliance with said Directive


Mark


[ observations / opinions welcome ]

msmoby_ru
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Post by msmoby_ru » Wed May 19, 2010 3:08 pm

A response dated 17/05/10

>>Dear Mark,

I have forwarded your comments to colleagues at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service, in Dublin. I will revert to you as soon as possible.

Regards,
xxxx <<

adamkara
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Immigration over there too bad

Post by adamkara » Sat Jul 10, 2010 7:46 pm

I had a story , im turkish-canadian citizen.i married last year in toronto,ca.My wife she is french citizen.she was working over there that time and we decided to move there (dublin).I ask irish ambassy to what to do , they told me to apply D type visa, then we apply and get it. finaly we arrive in dublin and register in Inis , then they give me 6 months stamp 4 then they said i ll get 5 years one , we said ok.

after 6 moths , i receive letter from them and there asking me to leave country , couse we didnt send my bank statemt on the time.Unbelievable!!!! , looks like they are going to say u dont brush your teeth and leave the country, then i go there and tell them , if u guys give me refusal for little thing , why are u facing giving me D type visa.They said we dont know , so who knows !!!!

Anyway i leave there and i ll newer ever go there again and i ll stop every body who wants to go there.Finaly i get my revenge.I was working pharmaceutical company in toronto. i haerd they re going to open office in dublin.I just go there and talk everybody and show them many web sites about irish immigration bads. they get shock, every body said OMG , yep !!!!! they cancel to open office in dublin , yehoooooo. Goes around comes around Inis.

ireland is a shity country , i hope eu kicks there butt soon and they will see

Directive/2004/38/EC
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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:19 pm

adamkara,

Is your wife working or studying in Ireland?

If so a Bank Statement is not material to a decision.

adamkara
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Post by adamkara » Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:30 pm

Hi Directive/2004/38/EC ,

My wıfe was workıng that time but stıll we receıve deport letter from INIS.Then we went to lawyer ın Dublın 1 , he told me he receıve more than 10 custumer a week about stupıd INIS system , now ı dont gıve a F... ABOUT ıreland , lawyer told me to many story how INIS talk to up people lıfe ın ırleand , I hate ireland

I ll try to make a law ın turkey for ırısh people , to make them dıffecult to get here and buy propertys.

They thınk there kıng and no body cant do notıng but ı start ıt.WE LL SE SOON

Directive/2004/38/EC
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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:37 am

Is your wife also presently working in Ireland, and you are both living in Ireland?

adamkara
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Post by adamkara » Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:34 am

My vıfe was workıng thata tıme , when we receıve deport letter from F.... INIS we left F... ireland and we never ever go back there. I hate thıs mother F....... , I saw lots of famıly they re sufferıng because of F.... INIS

But I ll gıve them same paın TO IRISH PEOPLE (ı have enough time and money to do that)

Directive/2004/38/EC
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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:55 am

I am sorry to hear you left Ireland. You might consider suing the DOJ if leaving Ireland has cost you a lot of money. To me it looks like they messed up badly, though I do not know a whole lot of details of your case.

adamkara
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Post by adamkara » Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:37 pm

they messed up more than 10 famıly every day and most of them they dont have a chance to leave and waıt almast 1 year to get f... ırısh resıdent card but ı have enough money and tıme for me and my famıly,I ll show them how to make a paın ın turkıye and canada. there ıs lots of ırısh comıng here and lıvıng , but game ıs over for them

archigabe
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Post by archigabe » Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:07 am

I would also recommend

https://e-justice.europa.eu/home.do
The European e-Justice portal – an electronic one-stop-shop for access to justice throughout the EU. The web site intends to benefit citizens, businesses, lawyers and judges with cross-border legal questions; it boosts mutual understanding of different legal systems by contributing to the creation of a single area of justice.

riseen
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Contact:

Post by riseen » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:14 am

Reply from Your Europe Advice service on Residency rights of Non EEA parents of Irish chil in Ireland based on Zambrano Judgement;

It is certainly arguable that you have a right to reside in Ireland with your Irish child based on the Zambrano case. However, the matter is not entirely clear. I am not surprised that you are receiving mixed messages from other States. The Zambrano case is relatively recent and the full implications of the case have yet to be drawn.

In your case, it appears that the entire family is residing outside Ireland. If this is the case, you could rely on the fact that the refusal by Ireland to allow your child to take up residence in Ireland deprives your child of his right as an EU citizen to reside in the EU. In Zambrano, the Court of Justice established that the EU citizen concerned must face a potential deprivation of the ‘genuine enjoyment of the substance of the rights’ conferred by virtue of the status of Union citizenship. The applicant’s children in Zambrano faced the threat of the most far-reaching deprivation of their rights as Union citizens, running the risk of having to leave the territory of the Union. However, the difference between your case and that of Zambrano is that in Zambrano, the family continued to reside in the EU.

If it is the case that your child is residing in Ireland but you, as his parents, are being refused residence, you could again rely on both Zambrano and on the recent Dereci C-256/11 ruling of the Court of Justice which provides that if a refusal to allow a family member to reside in the EU with an EU minor would lead to a loss of enjoyment of his rights as an EU citizen and may force him to leave the EU, the refusal would be in breach of EU law.

You should appeal the decision of the Irish authorities to refuse to grant residence to you. If the appeal is unsuccessful, you may wish to consider referring the matter to the Irish Immigration Council at www.immigrantcouncil.ie which can both advise and assist citizens where alleged breaches of EU rights of free movement have occurred.

I trust that this information is of assistance to you.
Yours sincerely,
Your Europe Advice

To submit another enquiry, please visit Your Europe Advice, but do not reply to this e-mail.

Yours sincerely,

Your Europe Advice

fatima-ahmed
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Re: Enforcement of European Union rights for Citizens in Ire

Post by fatima-ahmed » Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:29 am

Hi,
Can anyone here inform me if if the same restriction as in UK, is applied by Ireland or other European countries in regards to sponsoring Parents and have them lived with you permanently ?

Thanks

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