Brexit has screwed up our baby plans.

diasyfrau · Post by **diasyfrau** » Sun Dec 18, 2016 2:08 pm

I am an non-EEA with ILR (Sept 2016) with an EEA husband (German, arrived in U.K. Aug 2013) and a 2 year old daughter with initially German passport now British too. Hubby is self employed with limited company (U.K. Registered Sep 2013) and works from home.

We are planning second child and had planned to hopefully have child in late 2017 if it works out. Wanted to have birth sometime after I apply for BC in Sept 2017. We had originally planned to then spend my year of maternity leave (late 2017-late 2018) in Germany where we can live cheaply with his family (they have house with a number of vacant apartments). We plan to rent out our UK flat during that year subject to banks approval. It is in a good location commutable to central London in 30 min. Plan was to live off my UK maternity pay for a year (and do away with the crippling childcare expenses as we will have family to help and I won't be working) and save all of his income for that year. This would have enabled us to then return to U.K. and buy bigger home than our current flat, ideally a house.

But Brexit has scuppered plans as my husband is at least 2 years away from being eligible for PR as EEA citizen. We have also heard of the massive costs and expenses of becoming a spouse of settled person, not least as he would have to apply under my old Tier 2 general category apparently. We are worried about what difficulties he may face if we leave uk in late 2017 for a year and then potentially return post-Brexit or post-whatever cutoff date the govt imposes.

Any creative solutions out there? We are thinking our only options are to either forego having child for another 18 months or so (not ideal as I am 35) or else forego being able to upgrade our flat for a few more years - very cramped now given he works from home!

secret.simon · Post by **secret.simon** » Sun Dec 18, 2016 2:51 pm

You already have ILR. So, any child born to you would be a British citizen automatically if born in the UK, even before you acquire British citizenship.

The status of EU citizens in the UK is unclear at the moment, but there is an expectation that they will continue under the same rules and regulations that they entered under. I think it would be prudent for your German husband to not spend more than six months a year outside the UK. That way, he is most likely to retain his rights under EU law.

diasyfrau · Post by **diasyfrau** » Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:10 pm

secret.simon wrote:You already have ILR. So, any child born to you would be a British citizen automatically if born in the UK, even before you acquire British citizenship.

The status of EU citizens in the UK is unclear at the moment, but there is an expectation that they will continue under the same rules and regulations that they entered under. I think it would be prudent for your German husband to not spend more than six months a year outside the UK. That way, he is most likely to retain his rights under EU law.

Thanks for reply.

Yes - that is our same conclusion. We were planning to wait until after I had nationality (it's v. unpredictable as to how long Home Office would take to process I know!) because under German law a new baby would be entitled to both British and German citizenships for life if I am a British Citizen at the time of birth.

Right now, as far as Germany is concerned, my daughter was only entitled to acquire British citizenship (as I acquired settled status in the UK after her birth) because 1. Britain is an EU country, (entitlement to parents' citizenships acquired after a child's birth is not automatic except in the case of EU countries) and 2. Even so, at age 23 she will have to choose between the two citizenships. (She needed Germany's permission to become British because Germany does not ordinarily allow citizens to acquire further citizenships - the EU is an exception. But every German child is entitled to hold for life whatever citizenships the parents held at the time of their birth.) We are hoping to avoid the scenario we faced with my daughter with a later child, and realistically we may even have to plan on a 2018 birth to be safe.

The difficulty is balancing that against our declining fertility!!

Yes - we have hesitantly come to the same conclusion. We fear the difficulties he may face entering a post-Brexit or 'post-deadline' Britain as an EU citizen.

I'd rather wished there was some other solution we hadn't considered!!

Sigh

Petaltop · Post by **Petaltop** » Sun Dec 18, 2016 6:32 pm

diasyfrau wrote:I am an non-EEA with ILR

I apply for BC in Sept 2017.

We have also heard of the massive costs and expenses of becoming a spouse of settled person, not least as he would have to apply under my old Tier 2 general category apparently.

As you have settlement it would not be under your old Tier 2. It would be under the rules for a Brit to bring a spouse to the UK, where you have to show you can afford to sponsor him and he has no access to public funds.

diasyfrau · Post by **diasyfrau** » Sun Dec 18, 2016 8:30 pm

Thanks for the reply.

I may be wrong on this, but I thought that I read on the government website that if you get ilr/citizenship via a visa category and then want a spouse to get a spouse visa they have to apply under your old category (as in they have to act as if you were still in your visa category, even though you already have ilr/citizenship). I may be wrong.

I don't find the rules for spouse of British-born citizens much better either - quite restrictive and cumbersome. Better than visa spouse, for sure, but much worse than the EU category he is currently in. I think we are agreed that unless the spouse category changes substantially very soon we will be avoiding it completely.

I think I am discovering we clearly want too much from the system! A baby, enough savings for a deposit on a house, and settlement for my hubby is just a bit too much to expect apparently!

CR001 · Post by **CR001** » Sun Dec 18, 2016 8:54 pm

diasyfrau wrote:Thanks for the reply.

I may be wrong on this, but I thought that I read on the government website that if you get ilr/citizenship via a visa category and then want a spouse to get a spouse visa they have to apply under your old category (as in they have to act as if you were still in your visa category, even though you already have ilr/citizenship). I may be wrong. You are wrong. This would ONLY be relevant if the spouse has held a PBS dependent visa prior to the main applicant (you) getting ILR.

I don't find the rules for spouse of British-born citizens much better either - quite restrictive and cumbersome. Better than visa spouse, for sure, but much worse than the EU category he is currently in. I think we are agreed that unless the spouse category changes substantially very soon we will be avoiding it completely. Unlikely to change to become easier for migrants. It was easier up till July 2012 and due to abuse, it was made harder.

I think I am discovering we clearly want too much from the system! A baby, enough savings for a deposit on a house, and settlement for my hubby is just a bit too much to expect apparently!

noajthan · Post by **noajthan** » Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:59 pm

diasyfrau wrote:I am an non-EEA with ILR (Sept 2016) with an EEA husband (German, arrived in U.K. Aug 2013) and a 2 year old daughter with initially German passport now British too. Hubby is self employed with limited company (U.K. Registered Sep 2013) and works from home.

We are planning second child and had planned to hopefully have child in late 2017 if it works out.

...

Any creative solutions out there? We are thinking our only options are to either forego having child for another 18 months or so (not ideal as I am 35) or else forego being able to upgrade our flat for a few more years - very cramped now given he works from home!

Relax. Too much stress is not when it comes to baby plans.
Article 50 is not yet triggered and by all accounts takes 2 years.
So UK should still be in EU even by late 2018.

Hubby may leave UK for up to one year for a one-off exceptional reason (such as childbirth) without breaking his continuity of residence in UK.
Regardless of Brexit, and an absence of up to 1 year, hubby should just have time to serve his additional 2 years to acquire the holy grail of PR status (in UK) before 2019.

Your absence of up to 1 year will not extinguish your valued ILR for UK although do note that it may delay your application for privilege of citizenship.

Child born in UK to one settled parent will be British.
So the only compromise may have to be to do with German laws on multiple nationality for any future child;
however, based on your ambitions for British citizenship it seems your future intentions lie in UK anyway.

As pointed out you have got your wires crossed regarding visa categories and PBS.
Although you have perhaps had a glimpse of the ghost of 'Christmas Yet to Come' in terms of the future UK visa regime for everyone post-Brexit.
(Incidentally that is one that long-suffering and hard-pressed Brits with non-EEA families have already laboured under for many a hard year).

So, by the magic of free movement, you may "go to the ball" and have it all.
In the meantime, dim the lights and pour the mulled wine, put on some seasonal music and ho ho ho...

diasyfrau · Post by **diasyfrau** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:35 am

Thank for replies

Wow - thanks for that info - I got mixed up on the spouse categories because I had been on the PBS route! Yes - my husband has never been my dependant in terms of visas as we opted to keep separate visa categories when we got married because I was so close to ilr already.

Thanks for the correction.

Lol! I hear what you're saying about Britain potentially not having left the EU by late 2018. As you clearly appreciated if a retrospective deadline is imposed for the old rules to apply e.g. referendum date was our concern.

Do people have experience of breaks in stay of 1 year or so due to maternity leave in the EEA - PR route? I had heard of some people doing in this in the tier 2 route. I will go check out the rlevant forum. We didn't do the same with our daughter because we were worried about breaking my continuous residence period. A shame really, as it was quite stressful welcoming a new baby with no family around!

noajthan · Post by **noajthan** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:03 am

diasyfrau wrote:Thank for replies

Wow - thanks for that info - I got mixed up on the spouse categories because I had been on the PBS route! Yes - my husband has never been my dependant in terms of visas as we opted to keep separate visa categories when we got married because I was so close to ilr already.

Thanks for the correction.

Lol! I hear what you're saying about Britain potentially not having left the EU by late 2018. As you clearly appreciated if a retrospective deadline is imposed for the old rules to apply e.g. referendum date was our concern.

Do people have experience of breaks in stay of 1 year or so due to maternity leave in the EEA - PR route? I had heard of some people doing in this in the tier 2 route. I will go check out the rlevant forum. We didn't do the same with our daughter because we were worried about breaking my continuous residence period. A shame really, as it was quite stressful welcoming a new baby with no family around!

People do take time out from the British climate. Under 6 months can be for any reason, no need to justify it.

For a longer one-off absence there would have to be an exceptional reason backed with rock-solid evidence: pregnancy, study leave, military service & etc;
perhaps even a combination of reasons.
The point is time may still be accruing towards acquisition of PR despite absence (no physical presence) in UK.
Gotta love free movement.

Start with EEA Regs, and our old friend Regulation 3:
http://www.eearegulations.co.uk/Latest/ByPage/part1_3

As for what happens after Brexit, keep your ears open for any transitional arrangements; the traditional sense of British fair play may yet kick in and save the day.

Petaltop · Post by **Petaltop** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:39 pm

noajthan wrote: the traditional sense of British fair play may yet kick in and save the day.

Isnt' that why Brits voted to leave the EU? To take back control of their country to ensure a return to the British sense of fair play?

noajthan · Post by **noajthan** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:47 pm

Petaltop wrote:
noajthan wrote: the traditional sense of British fair play may yet kick in and save the day.
Isnt' that why Brits voted to leave the EU? To take back control of their country to ensure a return to the British sense of fair play?

There's also the sense of fair play that wrote transitional arrangements for things like CSI, for McCarthy & etc into EEA Regs.

LilyLalilu · Post by **LilyLalilu** » Fri Dec 23, 2016 3:41 pm

Right now, as far as Germany is concerned, my daughter was only entitled to acquire British citizenship (as I acquired settled status in the UK after her birth) because 1. Britain is an EU country, (entitlement to parents' citizenships acquired after a child's birth is not automatic except in the case of EU countries) and 2. Even so, at age 23 she will have to choose between the two citizenships. (She needed Germany's permission to become British because Germany does not ordinarily allow citizens to acquire further citizenships - the EU is an exception. But every German child is entitled to hold for life whatever citizenships the parents held at the time of their birth.) We are hoping to avoid the scenario we faced with my daughter with a later child, and realistically we may even have to plan on a 2018 birth to be safe.

Either I misunderstand what you are saying here or you have misunderstood the workings of German nationality law.
A child that acquires dual German + other (be it EU or non-EU citizenship) at birth can retain them for life. You do not need to be British for your child to be British from birth. Assuming they are UK-born, they will be automatically British by birth if you hold ILR at the time of their birth, you do not have to be British. Even if Britain would be a non-EU country your child could retain both citizenships forever. The option rule where children have to opt for one citizenship doesn't apply to children who have a German parent anyways, it only applies to children born in Germany who do not have a German parent but acquire German citizenship because of their non-EU parents' residence status in Germany at the time of their birth.

Get up to speed with the topic here before you worry too much

http://www.uk.diplo.de/Vertretung/unite ... p-FAQ.html faq 2

http://www.uk.diplo.de/Vertretung/unite ... nship.html

secret.simon · Post by **secret.simon** » Fri Dec 23, 2016 3:52 pm

The hive mind (or as the Romans would have called it, the genius) of these forums at its best, working away to guide members in these difficult hours.

Happy holidays, everybody. A Merry Christmas to all, with wishes for a happier (and better than 2016), more certain and more stable New Year.

diasyfrau · Post by **diasyfrau** » Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:34 am

"Either I misunderstand what you are saying here or you have misunderstood the workings of German nationality law.
A child that acquires dual German + other (be it EU or non-EU citizenship) at birth can retain them for life. You do not need to be British for your child to be British from birth. Assuming they are UK-born, they will be automatically British by birth if you hold ILR at the time of their birth, you do not have to be British. "

Thanks for this. This is what I had previously understood too, but when my husband spoke to someone at the Embassy in London they suggested that a future child would be entitled to our two CITIZENSHIPS only. They acknowledged that by British law they would be British if I just hold ilr, but they said rather than therefore gaining entitlement to 3 CITIZENSHIPS by birth if I hold only ILR (3 because 1. My country does not allow dual citizenship so acquiring uk citizenship will force me forfeit my current one, and 2. If I hold uk ILR, and a non-EU citizenship in theory our child would qualify for both of those by birth under this interpretation of German law, as well as also being entitled by birth to my hubby's German citizenship), this person seemed to believe our child could only be entitled to 2 and not 3 citizenships by birth. i.e. she said they would look at my actual citizenship rather than what another country said my baby is entitled to be. Sorry - I have put that very obtusely but I hope you can understand what I'm trying to say!

"Even if Britain would be a non-EU country your child could retain both citizenships forever." Yes I understand this, this is the case if my daughter wishes to home both German and my non-EU citizenship for life, unfortunately my country doesn't allow dual citizenship under any circumstances at all, so a moot point for my daughter, and hence the wish to avoid a repeat with our second child.

"The option rule where children have to opt for one citizenship doesn't apply to children who have a German parent anyways, it only applies to children born in Germany who do not have a German parent but acquire German citizenship because of their non-EU parents' residence status in Germany at the time of their birth." Again - this is not at all what we were told by the embassy. They also sent my hubby some documents backing up what they said - I can't comment on these as the conversation and documents were in German and my German is not good enough to understand the legalese.

Thank you for these links, I will take a look and show hubby if need be we will get back in touch with the Embassy to clarify their earlier advice.

Get up to speed with the topic here before you worry too much

http://www.uk.diplo.de/Vertretung/unite ... p-FAQ.html faq 2

http://www.uk.diplo.de/Vertretung/unite ... nship.html[/quote]

LilyLalilu · Post by **LilyLalilu** » Sat Dec 24, 2016 2:37 pm

I think the member of staff at the Embassy has just given out wrong advice. My child also has German and British citizenships and I am not (yet) British either (just held PR at the time of her birth). The embassy confirmed that any citizenships acquired at birth (no matter if parent actually holds that citizenship or not) can be retained forever. The info on their website confirms this as well, maybe check with them again. All the best and merry Christmas

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