Visa Refused After almost 10 months

businessmen aces · Post by **businessmen aces** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:20 pm

Sorry for your rejection could you please let me know the following -

Does your Business do any UK Trading or only Exports ? If all the creditors are overseas companies to whom you have exported goods what is the security do you have for payment.

Do you have credit history with your creditors or give credit at first transaction ?

Did you get points for employment and other points or not ?

Was all investment made during final year or gradually during 3 years of trading after visa. Are you trading from home or from Work place and do you hold any stocks in UK warehouse ?

noajthan · Post by **noajthan** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:40 pm

Huh? What is all that to do with visa rejection due to lack of clarity and/or accounting errors vis a vis Director's Loan?

mdm · Post by **mdm** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:08 am

noajthan
I have made no error. I checked all my documents.
According to the accounting everything is clear.
In my accounts my money is their.
And my accountsnt guide them to see where is my director loan.
Caseworker just ignore all those points which my acountant
Mention.
My accountant mention in compilation report and investment letter that where he can see my investment in accounts.

To businessman aces: with due respect most of your questions i feel not to answer due to irrelevant of my refusal.
I can answer only 2.
1)i invest in first year and third year and claim points for third year.
2)only 20points are not awarded which is for investment.

Thanks
All

noajthan · Post by **noajthan** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:22 am

Well I'm not caseworker and haven't seen bundle but its unclear how you address specific points raised by caseworker.

The accounts seem out of kilter; why is an investor's or accountant's letter necessary to illuminate DL, why don't accounts speak for themselves?

Jazz2007 · Post by **Jazz2007** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:59 am

+1

HO need specific requirement and we have to provide it.

I can understand your situation, Make a Strong AR and mention your Strongest points. Hopefully,If they are satisfied with your explanation and evidence which you have already provided decision of your application maybe overturned.I am of this opinion because you are a sole trader if i'm not wrong.

Best of Luck!!!

mdm · Post by **mdm** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:46 am

You meant to say sole trader = only director of the company.
Yes i am.
When all figures showing in managment accounts which i invested and accountant,s letter confirming and those amounts showing in where it should be then why HO have issues even HMRC accepts my this point why not HO.
i think they are using delay tactics. Otherwise i Was not expecting this kind of refusal point which is baseless to be very frank.
Also i complain about my case timing to HO complain department and get update via phone call which done by my MP.
Thats why they try to find a single point to refuse.

hamalt66 · Post by **hamalt66** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:34 am

Do you actually have to put your name in the note section?

I think it is enough to have "Director's Loan" amounts in the notes section of your financial statement and accounts. If you're the only Director of your company as proved in Current Appointment Report, then just showing how much the director's loan was (should be at least £200K) and also providing bank statements that show transfer from director's personal bank account to buisness account. If you provided those then mention them in AR. Good luck.

noajthan · Post by **noajthan** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:10 am

mdm wrote:You meant to say sole trader = only director of the company.
Yes i am.
When all figures showing in managment accounts which i invested and accountant,s letter confirming and those amounts showing in where it should be then why HO have issues even HMRC accepts my this point why not HO.
i think they are using delay tactics. Otherwise i Was not expecting this kind of refusal point which is baseless to be very frank.
Also i complain about my case timing to HO complain department and get update via phone call which done by my MP.
Thats why they try to find a single point to refuse.

A sole trader is not a single director

If you are a 'director' you must have a limited company which is a legal entity in itself.
A sole trader is a completely different legal setup.
Not clear what value all these advisors are if people are still struggling over the fundamentals.

HMRC is not HO and HO is not HMRC.
You are making a visa application and so you need to work within the appropriate legal framework and immigration rules, regulations and guidance set down in this context.
Its no good grumbling that HO don't understand business and business practices (and members have come here to invest and HO should be 'grateful', etc etc).

If you simply operate in a generic business fashion and/or employ advisors who may be unaware of the subtleties and nuances of T1-related applications then you are setting yourself up for a world of pain.

The refusal is not baseless. There is not a conspiracy to delay you, that would be nonsensical!
There is no evidence applicants are penalised or victimised for contacting a MP; that would be a national scandal.

The refusal is based on specific points that a caseworker has raised. The caseworker has helped you by itemising them.

You need to address and refute those specific points based on the law, regulations and guidance.
Not based simply on what your accountant says or what your accountant did for someone else (who happened to get an approval).

Have you yet convened a meeting with your advisors to analyse the refusal and to lay out an action plan?

awan905 · Post by **awan905** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:33 am

mdm wrote:You meant to say sole trader = only director of the company.
Yes i am.
When all figures showing in managment accounts which i invested and accountant,s letter confirming and those amounts showing in where it should be then why HO have issues even HMRC accepts my this point why not HO.
i think they are using delay tactics. Otherwise i Was not expecting this kind of refusal point which is baseless to be very frank.
Also i complain about my case timing to HO complain department and get update via phone call which done by my MP.
Thats why they try to find a single point to refuse.

Dont make your self confused and you are right that in some cases HO is quite unfair.
Kindly ask the accountant to correct the accounts and once you get a reply for AR and if they dont turn the decision then apply for new application, do make sure to prepare every thing again because your new application will be considered based on it's info.

Also a sole trader can be self employed or a director, however in your case I think you are the sole director of the firm (only one director), but still in accounts note you need to clarify the creditors figure that how how business owes to director and to other people, such as suppliers or any loan from bank.

Casa · Post by **Casa** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:45 am

awan905 wrote:
mdm wrote:You meant to say sole trader = only director of the company.
Yes i am.
When all figures showing in managment accounts which i invested and accountant,s letter confirming and those amounts showing in where it should be then why HO have issues even HMRC accepts my this point why not HO.
i think they are using delay tactics. Otherwise i Was not expecting this kind of refusal point which is baseless to be very frank.
Also i complain about my case timing to HO complain department and get update via phone call which done by my MP.
Thats why they try to find a single point to refuse.
Dont make your self confused and you are right that in some cases HO is quite unfair.
Kindly ask the accountant to correct the accounts and once you get a reply for AR and if they dont turn the decision then apply for new application, do make sure to prepare every thing again because your new application will be considered based on it's info.

Also a sole trader can be self employed or a director, however in your case I think you are the sole director of the firm (only one director), but still in accounts note you need to clarify the creditors figure that how how business owes to director and to other people, such as suppliers or any loan from bank.

As noajthan has already advised, a sole trader is NOT a director of the company.

Jazz2007 · Post by **Jazz2007** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:08 am

noajthan is right and to the point.....

FSD · Post by **FSD** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:20 am

This is the main issue i found in your query.

"The unaudited accounts dated 30th june 2015 and the management accounts dated 31 match 2016 do not show the director,s loan in the accounts or in your name as stipulated in the above paragraph".

So i think you need to address this point raised by caseworker.
1-First of all your name must be mentioned in the accounts as Director.
2-Secondly (in most of the cases) Creditor means the director gives investment/DL (loan to company) so please make sure the Difference of Creditor & Debtors. The Creditors: amount falling due after more than one year. So you are the Creditor and amount is DL
3- Thirdly in the note section it can be mentioned as Mr ABC has invested 200K. The loan is unsecured & subordinate in the favor of third party creditors of the company.
Please follow the T1 guideline provided by HO and try to address their point of concern. Accounts are the main and primary documents with proper format for the HO. You seems to be too much replying on accountant letter rather than accounts.
This is my opinion but please get help from senior members and should consult a professional lawyer because most of the accountants are not expert in T1 related issues. My final advise would be stick to the relevant points

mdm · Post by **mdm** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:53 pm

1-First of all your name must be mentioned in the accounts as Director.

(yes it is mention in the accounts that MR ABC is the director of the company.

2-Secondly (in most of the cases) Creditor means the director gives investment/DL (loan to company) so please make sure the Difference of Creditor & Debtors. The Creditors: amount falling due after more than one year. So you are the Creditor and amount is DL

(In Creditor Section the amount is their but as Other creditors not as director loan because i am the only director of the company and the investment letter clarifying that investment.
Also in Trade debtors it shows that what i owe from clients is actually my investment.Which confirms by accountant as well.)I think what HO is looking in black and white like instead of other creditors it should be Director Loan.

3- Thirdly in the note section it can be mentioned as Mr ABC has invested 200K. The loan is unsecured & subordinate in the favor of third party creditors of the company.

(This is not mention in my accounts which is clearly my solicitor,s fault because before finalising the accounts i did show to him if everything is ok according to the rules so confirm me and he confirms me.)

NOW HOW MANY CHANCES IN AR?????

Just the way of explaining is different of accountant otherwise everything was correct.
He mention in his 2 letters what everybody wants me that it should be mention on Accounts.

I read that guideline they mention SET OF FINANCIAL ACCOUNTS my understanding is that SET OF FINANCIAL ACCOUNTS include investment letter and compilation report . if that is not considers in the SET OF FINANCIAL ACCOUNTS then what is the credibility of those report and confirmation of investment letter????
for example i send the accounts sheet attached with compilation report that makes a set of accounts .

Kindly correct me if i am wrong because of those points you guys are pointing out make easy for me to fight in AR.I really appreciate.They are only clicking the boxes and not looking the way of presentation of documents by accountant and solicitors .

FSD wrote:This is the main issue i found in your query.
"The unaudited accounts dated 30th june 2015 and the management accounts dated 31 match 2016 do not show the director,s loan in the accounts or in your name as stipulated in the above paragraph".
So i think you need to address this point raised by caseworker.
1-First of all your name must be mentioned in the accounts as Director.
2-Secondly (in most of the cases) Creditor means the director gives investment/DL (loan to company) so please make sure the Difference of Creditor & Debtors. The Creditors: amount falling due after more than one year. So you are the Creditor and amount is DL
3- Thirdly in the note section it can be mentioned as Mr ABC has invested 200K. The loan is unsecured & subordinate in the favor of third party creditors of the company.
Please follow the T1 guideline provided by HO and try to address their point of concern. Accounts are the main and primary documents with proper format for the HO. You seems to be too much replying on accountant letter rather than accounts.
This is my opinion but please get help from senior members and should consult a professional lawyer because most of the accountants are not expert in T1 related issues. My final advise would be stick to the relevant points

FSD · Post by **FSD** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:00 pm

First of all please try to get advise from senior members like Zimba as they can give much better advise than others. Please note that a company is a separate legal entity. You give loan to company in the form of DL so debtors belong to your company not you. Logically they belong to you but according to law and HO guideline they are not.

I have seen accounts of one person got EXT and his annual accounts show (The Creditors: amount falling due after more than one year).means long term director loan as he is director of company

According to my understanding set of accounts means Company annual accounts & Business bank account.

The guide line says:
"138. When evidencing the investment:
(1) The audited or unaudited accounts must show the investment in money made directly by the you, in your own name or on your behalf (and showing your name)."

(5) The accounts must clearly show the name of the accountant, the date the accounts were produced, and how much you have invested in the business. The accounts must be prepared and signed off by the accountant, who is not you (the applicant), in accordance with statutory requirements.

If you have made the investment in the form of a director’s loan, it must be shown in both the relevant set of financial accounts provided and through readily identifiable transactions in the applicant’s business bank statement(s). The statement(s) must clearly show the transfer of this money from you to your business

This is the information i found in the guideline. you can show this information to your accountant so he/she can check anything missing. Please note this is a close system and logical and smart answer do not work. This is essential to follow the guideline. otherwise result would be the same in AR.

If you want to go for AR then it could be the correct decision as you will get time to prepare your fresh application and submit if AR is refused.

mdm · Post by **mdm** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:18 pm

thanks
this is my point.

hamalt66 wrote:Do you actually have to put your name in the note section?

I think it is enough to have "Director's Loan" amounts in the notes section of your financial statement and accounts. If you're the only Director of your company as proved in Current Appointment Report, then just showing how much the director's loan was (should be at least £200K) and also providing bank statements that show transfer from director's personal bank account to buisness account. If you provided those then mention them in AR. Good luck.

noajthan · Post by **noajthan** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:59 pm

noajthan wrote:
mdm wrote:Management accounts shows

Current assets

Debtors : 284,237
Cash at bank and in hand 603
___________________________
=284,840

Creditors: amounts falling due within one year:

Bank loans and overdrafts:96
Trade creditors:31,093
Corporation tax:4323
Other taxes and social security costs Other creditor:260,330

sm12 wrote:Did the management accounts not mention anywhere that you had given the loan?
It doesn't seem to meet stated objection which was (paraphrasing): in appropriate place in appropriate format in appropriate name

mdm · Post by **mdm** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:40 pm

My point is still their.
They want that numbers in management accounts????
shall we have so write on the wall WHITE if it is already WHITE????

In the guidance what i making the point is they want the amount of director loan included not so called DL word.

And i am only appointed Director of the company.
I am still thinking that this was not that kind of obligation on which they can refuse the visa.

noajthan wrote:
noajthan wrote:
mdm wrote:Management accounts shows

Current assets

Debtors : 284,237
Cash at bank and in hand 603
___________________________
=284,840

Creditors: amounts falling due within one year:

Bank loans and overdrafts:96
Trade creditors:31,093
Corporation tax:4323
Other taxes and social security costs Other creditor:260,330

It doesn't seem to meet stated objection which was (paraphrasing): in appropriate place in appropriate format in appropriate name

hamalt66 · Post by **hamalt66** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:06 pm

mdm wrote:thanks
this is my point.

hamalt66 wrote:Do you actually have to put your name in the note section?

I think it is enough to have "Director's Loan" amounts in the notes section of your financial statement and accounts. If you're the only Director of your company as proved in Current Appointment Report, then just showing how much the director's loan was (should be at least £200K) and also providing bank statements that show transfer from director's personal bank account to business account. If you provided those then mention them in AR. Good luck.

Also, you will have signed the director's statement in the accounts anyways (which shows your name as the director), and if the notes shows the director's loan amount in the notes section, then this is what you need to point out in your AR which they have missed.

jafersadeq · Post by **jafersadeq** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:25 pm

ukbiz wrote:

Your Accounts missed the presentation of Director Loan with your name under the section Notes to Financial Statements which comes after Balance Sheet.

In Notes to the Financial Statement under Creditors the notes should read as The Director (Mr.Abc) has invested £200K by the way of Loan which is unsecured and subordinate in favour of third party creditors''''

Apply for AR first and try to explain that the DL amount has shown in Creditors under Balance sheet and You are the only Director of Business ,If AR maintained the decision then re-apply with revised presentation of DL under Notes to Financial Statements of your accounts.

Annual accounts of the company is for the company, so when you talk about the loan, talk about what the company got as a borrower, do not say how much the director invest because you are talking about the company not about the director, explain in notes section how much the company received money from the director.

Thanks

ukbiz · Post by **ukbiz** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:46 pm

jafersadeq wrote:
ukbiz wrote:

Your Accounts missed the presentation of Director Loan with your name under the section Notes to Financial Statements which comes after Balance Sheet.

In Notes to the Financial Statement under Creditors the notes should read as The Director (Mr.Abc) has invested £200K by the way of Loan which is unsecured and subordinate in favour of third party creditors''''

Apply for AR first and try to explain that the DL amount has shown in Creditors under Balance sheet and You are the only Director of Business ,If AR maintained the decision then re-apply with revised presentation of DL under Notes to Financial Statements of your accounts.
Annual accounts of the company is for the company, so when you talk about the loan, talk about what the company got as a borrower, do not say how much the director invest because you are talking about the company not about the director, explain in notes section how much the company received money from the director.

Thanks

jafersadeq

There is no issue using this note as it is under creditors section of notes which confirms company has borrowed the loan!

This note will satisfy HO requirement of ''Investment amount should show by your name in your accounts''

The Applicant (who is also the Director) is on Tier 1 claiming the ''Investment'' points via Director Loan or Share Capital, It is not the Company who is claiming the Points for ''Borrowing Loan''!

And If you have noticed HO refuses when they unable to award points for Director's Investment( either by Director Loan or by Shares Capital)

mdm · Post by **mdm** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:53 pm

Update:
Received my nhs refund 200+200=400.
Hired berrister yesterday.
Lets see now.
I am very much positive that in AR i will be clear.
Insha Allah.
Thanks

Jazz2007 · Post by **Jazz2007** » Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:19 pm

Insha'Allah you will have a Positive outcome.
Best of Luck for AR

zimba · Post by **zimba** » Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:26 pm

1. Accountant's letter has NO VALUE. It is NOT an acceptable form of evidence no matter what you say.
2. Your name MUST appear as a creditor opposite the loan value in the notes section of the accounts. This is very specific and has been discussed many many times on the forum: http://www.immigrationboards.com/uk-tie ... 08860.html
3. Something that is acceptable in the world of business is NOT necessarily accepted by HO for award of points.
3. AR will probably not get you any results as your evidence does NOT comply with the immigration rules.

mdm · Post by **mdm** » Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:57 pm

zimba88 wrote:1. Accountant's letter has NO VALUE. It is NOT an acceptable form of evidence no matter what you say.
2. Your name MUST appear as a creditor opposite the loan value in the notes section of the accounts. This is very specific and has been discussed many many times on the forum: http://www.immigrationboards.com/uk-tie ... 08860.html
3. Something that is acceptable in the world of business is NOT necessarily accepted by HO for award of points.
3. AR will probably not get you any results as your evidence does NOT comply with the immigration rules.

Hi zimba,
Thanks for your comments.
Kindly correct me if i am wrong.
Caseworker can ask correct format document if he can see that everything is ok but just the document is not correct format?
Kindly advise future action?
Also pls advise .
Thanks
Bye

mdm · Post by **mdm** » Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:14 pm

mdm wrote:
zimba88 wrote:1. Accountant's letter has NO VALUE. It is NOT an acceptable form of evidence no matter what you say.
2. Your name MUST appear as a creditor opposite the loan value in the notes section of the accounts. This is very specific and has been discussed many many times on the forum: http://www.immigrationboards.com/uk-tie ... 08860.html
3. Something that is acceptable in the world of business is NOT necessarily accepted by HO for award of points.
3. AR will probably not get you any results as your evidence does NOT comply with the immigration rules.

Hi zimba,
Thanks for your comments.
Kindly correct me if i am wrong.
Caseworker can ask correct format document if he can see that everything is ok but just the document is not correct format?
Kindly advise future action?
Also pls advise .
Thanks
Bye

I am talking about this Rule:

245AA.Documents not submitted with applications

In this Rule everything clearly mention.
My Case is same amount is their and just format is not correct.Like my name in the accounts as a direct is their just i have to specify the amount from whole amount of OTHER CREDITORS.

kindly give your thoughts on this please.

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