Extending tier 4 visa with same level course

Hi what is the situation if someone is coming to the end of current tier visa after studying a level 3 course, but would like to continue on another level 3 course. Basically been doing a English language course for 2 years but would like to continue on to A Level course. I understand new rules came into force in Novemeber 2015, which states that student cannot carry on the same level for more then 2 years, except it linked to previous course. So what can be done? Thank you

You've hit the nail on the head in your post already. If you are given entry and a visa to a new level 3 course, it must demonstrate academic progression for yourself. However, sponsors have to demonstrate this with a considerable amount of an audit trail, as not demonstrating academic progression in assigning a CAS is now constituted as a serious compliance breach for UKVI. So good luck.

jammy101 wrote:I understand new rules came into force in Novemeber 2015, which states that student cannot carry on the same level for more then 2 years, except it linked to previous course.

Where are you reading about this exception to the 2 year cap? I think you may have misunderstood. The cap is 2 years for courses below degree level, with no exceptions. It can be 2 years and 11 months under some circumstances, but as you have had 2 years already, that would not be enough time for your plan anyway.

See http://www.ukcisa.org.uk/Information--A ... rements#RL

keysersoze22 wrote:If you are given entry and a visa to a new level 3 course, it must demonstrate academic progression for yourself. However, sponsors have to demonstrate this with a considerable amount of an audit trail, as not demonstrating academic progression in assigning a CAS is now constituted as a serious compliance breach for UKVI. So good luck.

OP's proposed plan will not be possible under the 2-year cap anyway, so the issue of Academic Progression is irrelevant.

ok heres another thing I am confused about, so student cannot spend more then two years studying below degree level right, so does studying a 4 course from level 3 course not count as academic progression?

jammy101 wrote:ok heres another thing I am confused about, so student cannot spend more then two years studying below degree level right, so does studying a 4 course from level 3 course not count as academic progression?

Yes. The 2-year cap is for all study below degree level, whatever it's number level. You appear to think that the cap is ignored if there is academic progression, but it is not.

hmm ok, so can the student go back to home country and re-apply for a new visa to study same level? thanks

jammy101 wrote:hmm ok, so can the student go back to home country and re-apply for a new visa to study same level? thanks

No. You have already used up your 2-year cap on Tier 4 studies below degree level.

If you are not going to study at degree level your time as a student in the UK is over.
The only access to Tier 4 in your circumstances will be to study at NQF5 and above.
If you can't qualify to do such a course then your student days in the UK are at an end.
If you have not passed your current NQF3 course then it is unlikely you will find a Sponsoring Educational Establishment that will offer you a CAS.

this is probably going to be my last question, I just found out the student has been studying on level 3 before he was 18, so only studied 1 since he was 18 and the rule on this website http://www.ukcisa.org.uk/Information--A ... 02&rl_id=0 said 2 year cap only starts when student is 18? so one year remaining right? which is enough to do foundation, anyone clear up?
thanks everyone who replied for your help

That rule is changing for applications made on or after 6 April 2016, and study under 18 will be counted. See para 7.27 of the Explanatory Memorandum to the recent Statement of Changes.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _Ready.pdf

First I live in Montana. My daughter is a masters student at the University of Bradford. She was led to believe that she could take a one year Masters course followed by second one year Masters course. Now the second Masters course is the same level as the first Masters course, but is a continuation of her studies for forensic archaeology and then forensic Osteology. She is being told by the schools VISA people that she cannot take the second masters course until she has successfully completed her first masters course. Now she will be done in August, but the rewards are not given until November. They say she cannot get a CAS for the next course until then which is too late. It has been suggest to her to return home and re-apply for another tier 4 Visa, which is a timing problem. I have read the Tier 4 document regarding continuation for her education. It is poorly written and ambitious as to her successfully completing her first masters. Are the schools VISA people interpreting the regulations correctly. The two masters degrees are related, but she chose to take the Forensic Archaeology before the Osteology Masters. She could have done the Osteology first. This whole situation does not make logical sense.

dannsh13 wrote:She is being told by the schools VISA people that she cannot take the second masters course until she has successfully completed her first masters course. Now she will be done in August, but the rewards are not given until November. They say she cannot get a CAS for the next course until then which is too late.

They can certainly issue a CAS before she gets her results, but it would not confirm academic progression, and therefore it could only be used for a Tier 4 application in her home country. This is confirmed in the Tier 4 Policy Guidance, para 56:

56. If you have failed to successfully complete a previous course for which you were granted Tier 4 leave (meaning you have not achieved the qualification for which you were studying), you will not be able to demonstrate academic progress and will have to apply from overseas if you wish to make a Tier 4 application to study a new course.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... v_V1_0.pdf

While the subsequent paragraph (57) certainly allows a sponsor to confirm academic progression for a new course at the same level, that is not the problem here. Para 57 is offering an exception to general rule that a new course must also be at a higher academic level, as explained in paragraph 53. It is not offering an exception to the requirement in paragraph 56 that a student must have successfully completed their previous course for their new CAS to confirm academic progression.

I would call this a "Catch 22". It Effectively means she will not start the next masters due to the U of Bradford slowness to award the degree. The rule just seems plan stupid and the Universities are going to loose income. So she comes home and has to wait a year before coming back. That lowers the odds of her returning for the second masters. I cannot believe there is not a way to make things work. Illogical. The hc877 seems to indicate that would be possible. I must be to logical for this legalese. What is goin to happen After April 6, 2016??

dannsh13 wrote:I would call this a "Catch 22". It Effectively means she will not start the next masters due to the U of Bradford slowness to award the degree. The rule just seems plan stupid and the Universities are going to loose income. So she comes home and has to wait a year before coming back. That lowers the odds of her returning for the second masters. I cannot believe there is not a way to make things work. Illogical. The hc877 seems to indicate that would be possible. I must be to logical for this legalese. What is going to happen After April 6, 2016??

How does is this apply and does this change the way this process works?

This is from 54729_HC_877_Explanatory_Memorandum_effective April 6:
"An amendment is being made to make clear that Tier 4 (General) students may not extend their leave in the UK in order to study a course at a lower level than the previous course for which they were granted Tier 4 leave and the course must be at or above degree level. These students must be progressing academically, unless they are taking a course at the same level as their previous course and their Higher Education Institution sponsor confirms that the course is related to the previous course for which the applicant was granted leave as a Tier 4 (General) Student, or the previous course and the new course in combination support the applicant’s genuine career aspirations. A further change is being made to tighten the circumstances in which a Tier 4 (General) student, who has previously studied in the UK, can switch courses without obtaining a new visa"

I know from personal experience that your daughter will have to wait until her results are confirmed to apply in-country (as sah10406 has stated), as these will have to be declared on the CAS.

I also know from personal experience that the University may take action through an internal process (some call them a Chair's Action) to validate the degree faster to meet with certain deadlines.

That may be your best option. Failing that, applying in the home country would be the only option left available, as any sponsor would ask what your daughter has done in the UK and would not be able to justify an in-country CAS application on the basis of pending results. What you cite won't change the circumstances - until the results are confirmed and validated, your daughter's degree is not complete and therefore cannot be used to justify a new application. Your citation is in regards to actually taking the new masters to compliment the old Masters, in which you've stated previously would be a correct move for your daughter.

I'll borrow one of Sah10406's quotes here - ask your daughter to speak to your University's International Student Advisors and mention the possibility of Chair's Action (or the University's process equivilent).

keysersoze22 wrote:I know from personal experience that your daughter will have to wait until her results are confirmed to apply in-country (as sah10406 has stated), as these will have to be declared on the CAS.

I also know from personal experience that the University may take action through an internal process (some call them a Chair's Action) to validate the degree faster to meet with certain deadlines.

That may be your best option. Failing that, applying in the home country would be the only option left available, as any sponsor would ask what your daughter has done in the UK and would not be able to justify an in-country CAS application on the basis of pending results. What you cite won't change the circumstances - until the results are confirmed and validated, your daughter's degree is not complete and therefore cannot be used to justify a new application. Your citation is in regards to actually taking the new masters to compliment the old Masters, in which you've stated previously would be a correct move for your daughter.

I'll borrow one of Sah10406's quotes here - ask your daughter to speak to your University's International Student Advisors and mention the possibility of Chair's Action (or the University's process equivilent).

You can see my confusion?
"These students must be progressing academically, unless they are taking a course at the same level as their previous course and their Higher Education Institution sponsor confirms that the course is related to the previous course for which the applicant was granted leave as a Tier 4 (General) Student, or the previous course and the new course in combination support the applicant’s genuine career.”

Ok so she needs the University’s International Student advisors to do a “Chair Action” and the sponsor do a CAS stating that her current course is related to the next course and in combination support her genuine career?

It seems to me that a “Chair Action” should not be needed in this case, but I am American. In the US her program would be a two year program with one Masters Degree.

dannsh13 wrote:Ok so she needs the University’s International Student advisors to do a “Chair Action” and the sponsor do a CAS stating that her current course is related to the next course and in combination support her genuine career?

I have no idea what a "Chair Action" is, but in order to know all her options she needs to know the following:

(a) What is the soonest date she could travel after finishing all her requirements of the first course?
(b) What is the earliest possible date she can get the result of the first course?
(c) What is the last possible date she can enrol on the second course?
plus
(d) In theory, if she has her result, does the sponsor consider the second course to show academic progress on the first course, with them being at the same level?

If date (b) is before or the same day as date (c), and the answer to (d) is Yes, she can get a CAS for a Tier 4 application in the UK, and enrol on the new course after she has made the Tier 4 application.

If date (b) is after date (c), and/or if the answer to (d) is No, she will need to apply in her home country because she can only get a CAS without academic progress. There would need to be enough time between date (a) and date (c) to go home, get the visa, and come back and enrol.

If neither of those are possible, she would need to defer the start of the second course.

To answer the query with Chair's Action, it'll be addressed as a different name in most Universities. In short, it is seeing if the University can get the award ratified for the student before the major awards board.

sah10406 wrote:

dannsh13 wrote:Ok so she needs the University’s International Student advisors to do a “Chair Action” and the sponsor do a CAS stating that her current course is related to the next course and in combination support her genuine career?

I have no idea what a "Chair Action" is, but in order to know all her options she needs to know the following:

(a) What is the soonest date she could travel after finishing all her requirements of the first course?
(b) What is the earliest possible date she can get the result of the first course?
(c) What is the last possible date she can enrol on the second course?
plus
(d) In theory, if she has her result, does the sponsor consider the second course to show academic progress on the first course, with them being at the same level?

If date (b) is before or the same day as date (c), and the answer to (d) is Yes, she can get a CAS for a Tier 4 application in the UK, and enrol on the new course after she has made the Tier 4 application.

If date (b) is after date (c), and/or if the answer to (d) is No, she will need to apply in her home country because she can only get a CAS without academic progress. There would need to be enough time between date (a) and date (c) to go home, get the visa, and come back and enrol.

If neither of those are possible, she would need to defer the start of the second course.

What a crazy process. Coming home is very expensive not knowing when you may go back, which lessens the odds of returning. How are the University’s dealing with this process?

dannsh13 wrote:How are the University’s dealing with this process?

It very rarely comes up. It would only happen in this specific rare scenario, where someone wants to start a second 12-month Masters immediately after finishing a first one. In all other situations, there are a few months between the end of one course and the start of another.

I fully understand what your a saying in regards to the current rules. I want to return to the following:

This is from 54729_HC_877_Explanatory_Memorandum_effective April 6:
"An amendment is being made to make clear that Tier 4 (General) students may not extend their leave in the UK in order to study a course at a lower level than the previous course for which they were granted Tier 4 leave and the course must be at or above degree level. These students must be progressing academically, unless they are taking a course at the same level as their previous course and their Higher Education Institution sponsor confirms that the course is related to the previous course for which the applicant was granted leave as a Tier 4 (General) Student, or the previous course and the new course in combination support the applicant’s genuine career aspirations. A further change is being made to tighten the circumstances in which a Tier 4 (General) student, who has previously studied in the UK, can switch courses without obtaining a new visa"

Could the be interpreted to over rule the older rules? One is taking Forensic Anthropology and Crime Scene Investigation Masters, to be follow by a Human Osteology and Paleo Pathology Masters.

Seems this would qualify under the “unless” statement of the new April 6 Memorandum? No new Visa required?

Thanks for your input. Danny

dannsh13 wrote:Could the be interpreted to over rule the older rules?

No, on the contrary it is putting into the Rules what was previously only in guidance. But as I have said several times, it is not the new course being at the same level that is preventing her from getting a CAS for an application in the UK. It is the fact that she will not have successfully completed her previous course.

sah10406 wrote:

dannsh13 wrote:Could the be interpreted to over rule the older rules?

No, on the contrary it is putting into the Rules what was previously only in guidance. But as I have said several times, it is not the new course being at the same level that is preventing her from getting a CAS for an application in the UK. It is the fact that she will not have successfully completed her previous course.

So the “unless statement” does negate the “successfully completed”.

"unless they are taking a course at the same level as their previous course and their Higher Education Institution sponsor confirms that the course is related to the previous course for which the applicant was granted leave as a Tier 4 (General) Student, or the previous course and the new course in combination support the applicant’s genuine career aspirations.”

Seems to me that it is an continuation of her education to meet her goals.

Is it up to the sponsor to take the torch and fight to get her the Visa for the next course?

I have been researching the Tier 4 Visa issue and it sounds like there is much dislike of what Theresa May has done. Had we know this was going to be an issue my daughter would not have gone to Bradford. If she does come home I am going to do my very best for her to stay in the US. This one of those political mistakes that is going to have unintended consequences. What is one to do? I will not stop and hope she can get things worked out at the school. Here big problem is she will be completing her course in August and the next course starts in September.

dannsh13 wrote:So the “unless statement” does negate the “successfully completed”.

No.

dannsh13 wrote:Is it up to the sponsor to take the torch and fight to get her the Visa for the next course?

No. Their hands are tied because she will not have her result in time.

dannsh13 wrote:I will not stop and hope she can get things worked out at the school. Here big problem is she will be completing her course in August and the next course starts in September.

That could only happen if she somehow gets the result of the first course in time to get a CAS to join the second course. See my timeline in a previous post.