E.U States Allowing Visa free Travel-E.U Fam&Residence c

[charles4u]

Quote:
He was wrong, you are allowed to travel to join your wife.


It is said , if holding a FAMILY MEMBER RESIDENCE CARD from any EU country except from UK and IRELAND, u can visit together or meet the spouse in any EU country also except UK and IRELAND who still requires visa....


But if holding a FAMILY MEMBER RESIDENCE CARD of any SCHENGEN country(Germany).... ...u can travel ALONE or join ur spouse in any SCHENGEN country(Netherlands) not Romania who is just an EU member.......also except UK and IREALND who always still needs visas

[Richard66]

It is said , if holding a FAMILY MEMBER RESIDENCE CARD from any EU country except from UK and IRELAND, u can visit together or meet the spouse in any EU country also except UK and IRELAND who still requires visa....

This is wrong: this is what the UK and Ireland want us to understand, but this is NOT what Directive 38/2004 says and this is NOT what the European Commission thinks either. The UK at least is being brought before the European Court of Justice on this count.

I actually have a letter from the UK Embassy in Rome which says explicitly that an entry visa for the UK is NOT needed for immigration, but for the carrier!

[charles4u]

It is said , if holding a FAMILY MEMBER RESIDENCE CARD from any EU country except from UK and IRELAND, u can visit together or meet the spouse in any EU country also except UK and IRELAND who still requires visa....

This is wrong: this is what the UK and Ireland want us to understand, but this is NOT what Directive 38/2004 says and this is NOT what the European Commission thinks either. The UK at least is being brought before the European Court of Justice on this count.

I actually have a letter from the UK Embassy in Rome which says explicitly that an entry visa for the UK is NOT needed for immigration, but for the carrier!

My wife(Romanian) is working in the UK and I wanted to go to UK but they refused me saying that we meet too soon to get married according to her the consular,
where-as normally I should just go with my wife with my FAMILY RESIDENT CARD.

So what do u advice me to do now...just go to UK or what ..we planning on her quiting her job in UK and we plan on going somewhere else maybe NETHERLANDS atleast they allow to enter with the family card ..
But its so complicated for us cus my wife signed 2 yrs contract to work there in UK...so we dont just know what to do ...

[86ti]

Austria. I lodged a complaint against Austria on July 11 with Solvit Austria (the contact person was on holiday the week after). A request was sent to the Austrian Ministry of Interior and on August 5 I received a response dated July 31 from the Austrian Foreign Ministry by email. The main text in German is pasted below. A rough translation of/comments to each paragraph:

Para 1. After extensive investigations (I tried to get information since March this year through the embassy in London who sent an urgent request to the ministry. Later I tried to directly contact them but never got a response until now) I am informed about the following.

Para 2. Explanation that family members of Union citizen are not considered third country nationals when their spouses exercise treaty rights by reference to Directive 2004/38/EC.

Para 3. Therefore, my wife does not need a visa for the Schengen area (Optimists! Did they ask the other Schengen countries?) if we travel together or she joins me while I am there.

Para 4. Explanation under what circumstance she would not need a visa:
a) if she holdes a permanent residence card ('Daueraufenthaltskarte') issued by Austria
b) if she holds a corresponding residence permit of another Schengen member
c) if she holds a 'residence card for a family member of a Union citizen' of another EU member (I think that shoud actually read EEA member).

Para 5. Explanation that a 'residence card for a family member of a Union citizen' is a residence card issued for 5 years by the country where one exercises his/her treaty rights.

Para 6. The Directive has been (fully) implemented on Jan 1 2006 within the 'Fremdenrechtspaket' (As far as I am aware of it is the NAG in this package that implements the Directive but to the best of my knowledge this law deals only with long term residency and not short visits).


And here the original text:

Zu Ihrer Anfrage im Gegenstand darf ich Ihnen – nach umfangreichen ha. Erhebungen – nunmehr Folgendes mitteilen:

Familienangehörige – in Ihrem Falle – eines Unionsbürgers gelten ungeachtet ihrer Staatsangehörigkeit, nicht als Drittstaatsangehörige welche die Einreisevoraussetzung im Sinne des Schengener Grenzkodex erfüllen müssen, wenn diese vom Unionsbürger ein Freizügigkeitsrecht ableiten können. Gemäß Art. 3 Abs. 1 der Richtlinie 2004/38/EG kann ein Familienangehöriger dann ein Freizügigkeitsrecht von einem Unionsbürger ableiten, wenn sich der Unionsbürger in einen anderen als den Mitgliedstaat, dessen Staatsangehörigkeit er besitzt, begibt oder sich dort aufhält und der Familienangehörige ihn begleitet oder ihm nachzieht.

Ihre Gattin kann daher in Ihrer Begleitung – oder Ihnen nachreisend – ohne Sichtvermerk in das Schengengebiet einreisen.

Es wäre nur dann – gemäß § 85 FPG – für einen Aufenthalt von bis zu drei Monaten ein Sichtvermerk für Ihre Gattin erforderlich, wenn sie nicht Inhaber einer von Österreich ausgestellten Daueraufenthaltskarte (§ 54 NAG), eines entsprechenden Aufenthaltstitels eines Schengen-Staates oder einer von einem EU-Mitgliedstaat ausgestellten „Aufenthaltskarte für Familienangehörige eines Unionsbürgers" iSd Art. 10 der Richtlinie 2004/38/EG sind.

Bei einer „Aufenthaltskarte für Familienangehörige eines Unionsbürgers" iSd Art. 10 der Richtlinie 2004/38/EG handelt es sich um eine von einem sog. „Aufnahmemitgliedstaat" (siehe Art. 2 Z. 3 der Richtlinie 2004/38/EG) für drittstaatsangehörige Familienmitglieder von EU-Ausländern grundsätzlich auf fünf Jahre ausgestellte Aufenthaltskarte.

Die (volle) Umsetzung der Richtlinie 2004/38/EG in Österreich ist per 1.1.2006 durch das Fremdenrechtspaket erfolgt.

[ca.funke]

What the Autrian "ministry of foreign affairs", as per above post by "86ti", sais is 100% correct.

The practical problem all affected people face is, that this is too complicated.

If the ministry can only answer this after "extensive research", how should border-guards know about the specifics?

I dare to say that I understood these specifics by now too, but how should you convince a boarder-guard that you know more about this than he does?!

[86ti]

What the Autrian "ministry of foreign affairs", as per above post by "86ti", sais is 100% correct ... If the ministry can only answer this after "extensive research"

Yes, Christian, what the ministry told me was what we (the people affected by the Directive in this forum and others) already knew for some time now. But it is still worthwile to get official confirmation.

What "extensive research" means is anybody's guess. I speculate that it has something to do with certain events of this year and earlier. I have been told by the Austrian Embassy in London, and somebody else in this forum confirmed that too, that the EU embassies (my guess, as my source used "EU partners") met in the beginning of this year to discuss this issue. We have also seen this year that some EU countries switched to what we believe is the correct interpretation. My guess is that these EU countries looked at the pending court cases and figured that the EuJ will likely rule in favour of the Comission. In the press release about the judgement in the recent case against Ireland the residence card issue is mentioned (didn't read the actual verdict). This may hint to the way the EuJ will rule in the case against the UK, which as far as I understand from Richard66, deals with the UKs stance on what residence cards they have to accept. As I said, just some daydreaming from my side.

The practical problem all affected people face is, that this is too complicated.

It seems to work within the Schengen countries. So why would the residence cards of two more countries matter that much? And, as far as I understand is that all residence card are supposed to have the same format (I think there is a EU regulation about this).

...how should border-guards know about the specifics? ... I dare to say that I understood these specifics by now too, but how should you convince a boarder-guard that you know more about this than he does?!

In reality, that might be the real challenge. Provided, of course, that the airline had let you boarded their plane.

[ca.funke]

It seems to work within the Schengen countries. So why would the residence cards of two more countries matter that much? And, as far as I understand is that all residence card are supposed to have the same format (I think there is a EU regulation about this).

The problem with the countries that are inside the EU but outside Schengen (namely Ireland, UK, Cyprus, Bulgaria and Romania), is, that their case is so special:

Within Schengen (which has nothing to do with 2004/38/EC) EVERYBODY who is legally resident can travel throughout Schengen. As there are no border-checkpoints, this is easy even in practical terms: You don't have to convince anyone that this is right - it simply is.

According to 2004/38/EC, the residence permits issued by the 5 "special" countries are not valid as a visa under all circumstances: They are only valid if

• the 3-rd-country national is a FAMILY MEMBER of an EU-citizen AND
• they live in a country other than that of which the EU-national is a citizen AND
• travel together OR
• the non-EU-spouse follows the family member

Furthermore, the residence-permit has to be issued according to 2004/38/EC. In the UK this is called "EEA-familiy-residence-permit" and comes in the form of a sticker in the passport, in Ireland this is called "EU-4-Fam" and comes in the form of a separate credit-card-sized card. I don't know about Cyprus, Bulgaria and Romania.

When traveling according to this rule, it is not allowed to have stamps placed in the passport of the non-EU-citizen. Mostly this is unknown and, if you manage to travel at all, you will have a stamp before you can say "stop".

All of the above is somewhat confusing. Asking different officials will yield different answers, most of these answers are wrong.

If the ministries don't know the answers quickly and correctly (as you can see they don't), how should they train the border-guards?

It's one big mess and a solution is not in sight. The people affected are not enough to have a critical mass for a massive outcry.

Of course all of this could be tidied up, but who is responsible, willing and in a position to do that?

I don't know.

[86ti]

Thank you for pointing out that there are actually 5 countries to consider.

According to 2004/38/EC, the residence permits issued by the 5 "special" countries are not valid as a visa under all circumstances: They are only valid if

• the 3-rd-country national is a family member of an EU-citizen AND
• they live together
• in a country other than that of which the EU-national is a citizen.

Furthermore, the residence-permit has to be issued according to 2004/38/EC. In the UK this is called "EEA-familiy-residence-permit" and comes in the form of a sticker in the passport, in Ireland this is called "EU-4-Fam" and comes in the form of a separate credit-card-sized card. I don't know about Cyprus, Bulgaria and Romania.

I was under the impression that all residence permits have the same appearance. The Suisse have a long list with picture examples on their official web page for all visa/residence permits they accept and it seems to work for them. I don't really see why it shouldn't work in the other European countries.

[ca.funke]

I was under the impression that all residence permits have the same appearance. The Suisse have a long list with picture examples on their official web page for all visa/residence permits they accept and it seems to work for them. I don't really see why it shouldn't work in the other European countries.

### ### ### general ### ### ###

I agree, ways out could be:

• Having a folder for border-guards detailing all residence-permits that allow visa-free-entrance
• Or have all residence-permits that allow EU-wide-travel (as opposed to Schengen-wide) have a uniform look

However, none of the like is imminent

### ### ### Switzerland ### ### ###

About the Swiss exception: They currently DO accept cards that are NOT accepted according to 2004/38/EC.

I can only go into the Irish details: Everyone living in Ireland with "Stamp 4" is accepted for entry into Switzerland, it is not necessary to be a family-member of anyone.

Thus, if you are legally in Ireland it is easier to enter Switzerland than it is to enter Schengen.

However I guess this is due to change with the imminent Schengen-integration of Switzerland

### ### ### Estonia ### ### ###

Oh - I just happened to find this link to the Estonian embassy in London (earlier in this thread). This is an example of (mostly) correct and easy to understand information. But: Will the airline let you board? Will the border-guard on arrival in Estonia let you pass? ...

Checking the same on the Estonian Embassy in Dublin yields incorrect and incomplete information:

...Citizens of third countries, who in addition to the valid passport of the country of their citizenship present the Swedish residence card, which has been issued pursuant to the Directive 2004/38/EC of the EU Parliament and the Council bearing a text "Family member of a Union citizen" may enter Estonia without a visa in case they travel to Estonia from another EU member state. Abolition of visas is applied only in case the family member travels together: 1. with the EU citizen or 2. to the EU citizen (in that case residence information of the EU citizen in Estonia has to be included into the National Population Register of Estonia). Visa-free stay may last up to 90 days during six months. The mentioned residence card does not allow the holder to cross the external border of EU without a visa...

The bold passages are incorrect, because:

• This has nothing to do with "Swedish"residence-cards. (Especially strange, since Sweden is in Schengen?!) Correct would be: All cards issued according to 2004/38/EC for family-members.
• It has nothing to do with "where you travel from", it depends on where you normally reside. Specifically, entering Estonia from Russia should be possible, but it seems in practice it is not.
• You can also "join" the EU-citizen who is on a visit to Estonia.
• Of course you can cross the "external" EU-border, same as the second point. At least this is true from the Estonian side, whatever may be the rules in Russia is a totally different topic and has nothing to do with this.

[86ti]

Oh - I just happened to find this link to the Estonian embassy in London (earlier in this thread). This is an example of correct and easy to understand information. But: Will the airline let you board? Will the border-guard on arrival in Estonia let you pass? ...

We'll soon try to fly to Latvia and then go to Estonia. According to information from Ryanair (we asked directly at Liverpool Airport) they'll let us board. Let's see what the Latvians will do. We may have to visit my in-laws in St. Peterburg but I hesitate to attempt to re-enter the EU through the Russian-Estonian border.

[ca.funke]

actually, the Estonian example from Dublin bugged me, so I sent an email to them to enquire about that.

Any reply would of course be posted.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Christian (...)
Date: Fri, Aug 8, 2008 at 2:05 PM
Subject: Information given on your website
To: embassy.dublin@mfa.ee


Dear Sir or Madam,

I recently read some information on the website of the Estonian Embassy in Dublin (Ireland), which I believe to be incorrect. I would much appreciate if you could shed some light on the following:

On this site (http://www.estemb.ie/consular_information/visa) the following information is given:

### ### ###
...Citizens of third countries, who in addition to the valid passport of the country of their citizenship present the Swedish (1) residence card, which has been issued pursuant to the Directive 2004/38/EC of the EU Parliament and the Council bearing a text "Family member of a Union citizen" may enter Estonia without a visa in case they travel to Estonia from another EU member state. (2) Abolition of visas is applied only in case the family member travels together: 1. with the EU citizen or 2. to the EU citizen (in that case residence information of the EU citizen in Estonia has to be included into the National Population Register of Estonia). (3) Visa-free stay may last up to 90 days during six months. The mentioned residence card does not allow the holder to cross the external border of EU without a visa... (4)
### ### ###

I believe the highlighted parts to be incorrect, as per the following explanations:

1. Visa-free travel, as per directive 2004/38/EC has nothing to do with "Swedish" residence-cards. (This seems especially strange, since Sweden is in Schengen itself ?!) I think that it would correctly read: "All cards issued according to 2004/38/EC for family-members."
2. 2004/38/EC has nothing to do with where an individual is traveling from, it depends on where the traveler in question normally resides. Specifically, entering Estonia from Russia should be possible according to this rule.
3. It should also be possible to "join" EU-citizens who are (only) visiting Estonia, as long as the stay of the non-EU-family-member will not exceed 3 months.
4. It should be possible to cross the external EU-border, at least from the Estonian side. Whatever may be the rules of Russia is a totally different and unrelated topic.

Apart from the above details, I wonder the following:

In Ireland, residence-permits for EU-family-members according to 2004/38/EC are called "Stamp-EU-4-Fam". Is it possible to travel to Estonia with such cards? If "yes", will this be accepted for entry into Estonia, no matter from where the person is arriving?

Thanks for any input you may have on the above.

Christian (...)

[86ti]

In Ireland, residence-permits for EU-family-members according to 2004/38/EC are called "Stamp-EU-4-Fam".

What is actually written on those Irish cards? How do they look like?

[86ti]

The mentioned residence card does not allow the holder to cross the external border of EU without a visa... (4)

4. It should be possible to cross the external EU-border, at least from the Estonian side. Whatever may be the rules of Russia is a totally different and unrelated topic.

Good point! I sent a similar request to the London embassy. I think this text is the same for all their embassy web pages.

[ca.funke]

What is actually written on those Irish cards? How do they look like?

Stealing from another earlier post, this is the link to the most organised folks of them all, the Swiss.

Clicking on "Irland/Irlande/Irlanda/Ireland" will open a .pdf with all the different cards.

Page 5/6 shows an 4EUFam card.

Why is not everyone as organised as the Swiss?

[86ti]

The mentioned residence card does not allow the holder to cross the external border of EU without a visa... (4)

4. It should be possible to cross the external EU-border, at least from the Estonian side. Whatever may be the rules of Russia is a totally different and unrelated topic.

Good point! I sent a similar request to the London embassy. I think this text is the same for all their embassy web pages.

Quick response from them!

This residence card [note: British Residence Card of a family member of an EEA national] allows you to enter estonia from any country, be it russia or latvia.

The information about the UK residence card is now under http://www.estonia.gov.uk/consular_info ... nformation

[ca.funke]

What is actually written on those Irish cards? How do they look like?

Stealing from another earlier post, this is the link to the most organised folks of them all, the Swiss.

Clicking on "Irland/Irlande/Irlanda/Ireland" will open a .pdf with all the different cards.

Page 5/6 shows an 4EUFam card.

Why is not everyone as organised as the Swiss?

Sorry for putting up a stoopid question:

Article 10 of 2004/38/EC sais:

...by the issuing of a document called ‘Residence card
of a family member of a Union citizen’...

How must "of a document called" be interpreted?

Does it mean that the card must actually display this specific title, or is it enough that the card is known (=called) as such?

Specifically, Irish cards issued as per above, are distinguished simply because they display "Stamp4EUFam", and not any other "Stamp".

As quite an amount of countries (deliberately want to) mess with the intentions of 2004/38/EC, they could refuse bearers of Irish "Stamp4EUFam"-cards visa-free-travel, saying that the Irish card is not "correctly" issued

I know that this may sound far-fetched, but around 2004/38/EC there is a lot that is even more far-fetched. So just want to make sure...

[charles4u]

This is the reply I recieved from Germany and I havent gotten any reply from some other countries yet.



Dear Mr. Charles Mudy,
please note, that as a family member of a Romanian citizen you are
allowed to travel without visa directly to Germany by plane, only
together with your wife. You must be owner of a valid passport and the
new identity card for family members. We also recommend you to have the
certificate of marriage with you.
If on your way to Germany, respectively return to Romania you transit
Hungaria and Austria by car,bus or train, you must inform yourself at
the embassy of each country you intend to pass over.

Regarding visa information please find enclosed our leaflet.
In order to be filled in, you are kindly asked to download from
www.bucuresti.diplo.de
(http://www.bucuresti.diplo.de/Vertretun ... i2008.html)
the English version of the visa application files as well as the
declaration mentioned below, including the overleaf of it.

Kind Regards

Visa Section

Deutsche Botschaft Bukarest



I really dont know what to do concerning this UK cus normally u should be able to go to any EU country with or join ur spouse ..
Someone pls help in contacting SOLVENT or whatever its called

[ca.funke]

Just some advertisement for

>>this<<

thread, where I investigated the travel-situation for non-EU family members of EU citizens rather intensely.

The above thread is especially relevant for people living in Ireland, where the "residence-card for family members" is called 4EUFam. (That's the Irish Version of the British "Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National") however, it may be interesting for yee too

[Richard66]

As a lawyer (non-practising), I can tell you it's not the name that defines what a document is, but what the document itself actually says. After all, if you get a document saying: "birth certificate" and in it you read "Fish and Chips 55p" is that a birth certificate or a menu?

If a document has all the characteristics of the "residence card reffered to in Article 10", does it cease to be a residence card because it is called a dandelion?

[ca.funke]

As a lawyer (non-practising), I can tell you it's not the name that defines what a document is, but what the document itself actually says. After all, if you get a document saying: "birth certificate" and in it you read "Fish and Chips 55p" is that a birth certificate or a menu?

If a document has all the characteristics of the "residence card reffered to in Article 10", does it cease to be a residence card because it is called a dandelion?

Good timing that you reply with this now

This is exactly the question the Luxemburgish representative raised and is (hopefully) currently investigating. Read >>here<<. I never thought this would become relevant, now it is

[Richard66]

This is exactly the question the Luxemburgish representative raised and is (hopefully) currently investigating. Read >>here<<. I never thought this would become relevant, now it is

A little story... I'm having a field day with my landlady, who gave me a contract with a certain name in the vain hope that it was the name that defined the contact. She now stands to lose €20,000 because of her mistake.

[charles4u]

Hello funke and all,

Something is not clear to me, I read a message here from someone saying he was told that if his in possession of a FAMILY RESIDENT CARD OF EU then he or she doesnt need a visa for a short stay in the UK if going together with the spouse.
So does that mean one can go to the UK with the spouse without visa or what ?
and cant the EU commission do something abt this UK EEA things or are they all scared of UK because even this UK happens to be one of the most useless country in Europe with the way people complain abt the britishs....its just the salary rate there that makes it better..

This is what is said in the UK home office site and copy of the link..

http://ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/eucitizen ... sibilites/

Family members who are not EEA or Swiss nationals:
If your family members are not EEA or Swiss nationals and they are coming to live with you permanently or on a long-term basis, they will need to apply for an EEA family permit before coming to the United Kingdom. The EEA family permit is similar to a visa and is issued by UK Visa Services. Your family members should make an application for an EEA family permit at their nearest British diplomatic post.


According to what I read there which says if going "permanently or for a long time" then a visa is needed but I think if going for short stay then visa is not needed (less than 3 months).
well they are called english and I bet thats the meaning of what wrote means.

Anyway guys let me hear from you and let me know whats up ...if there UK EEA thing is cancelled or whatever..

[Richard66]

Interesting that... Have these documents been changed recently? I noticed in all texts (except for the regulations) of the UK Border Agency no mention to EEA FPs. Or do they mean that for short-stays these family members need a tourist visa?

[charles4u]

Interesting that... Have these documents been changed recently? I noticed in all texts (except for the regulations) of the UK Border Agency no mention to EEA FPs. Or do they mean that for short-stays these family members need a tourist visa?

I cant be sure and thats why I asked to know if someone can know here for real.
Someone was told that saying if his wife have this card ...then doesnt need visa for a short stay in UK if they are going together. and also according to whats its written on there site....or am I the one understanding it wrongly? But am not just sure of all yet....

[Richard66]

It's not that we can get hold of that information, you know... Money needs to change hands, because the UK consulates no longer answer letters about visas. You need to call a so-called "commercial partner", who, of course, doesn't know the answer. £10 please. Next!