EEA citizen–Speeding and the hearing in the magistrate cou

[Alvin88]

First of all - Hello everybody.

Here is my case:

I am a Polish citizen living in the UK.

On 29 of May 2009 (Friday evening) I was caught while I was doing 103.1 on M25 in mine Toyota. I was the only person in the car.

Because I have Polish driving license the policeman couldn’t do anything – just check all my papers (ID and a Polish driving license) and gave me the paper with the notice that I have to go to the police station within 7 days and produce my papers about the car - Insurance, MOT, etc. I went to the police station on Monday – 3 days after the event (so within 7 days) and showed them everything (Polish driving license, Polish ID Card, Polish Passport, MOT, Insurance, etc. – everything was OK – valid MOT, valid insurance etc.).

Later on – in late October I have received a letter ‘summons’ – about the whole issue – which sais me to go to Magistrate Court in Guilford on Tue, 24 of Nov 2009 about the whole issue. I did – - I plead guilty in the front on the Magistrate Court (and I have promised that I will never do it again) – and I got 6 penalty points, and a fine (total £358 - divided as:
- £300 as a HM COURTS SERVICE,
- £43 as a SURREY POLICE speeding – exceed 70 mph manned equipment,
- £15 as a LIBERATA VICTIM SURCHARGES).

As I have a Polish driving license I couldn’t help it, but I have to go to the court – there is no other option in that case.

I have applied for a permanent residence using EEA-3 form on 13 of June 2010 and got it on 01 of Sept 201 (date on the document - Residence Documentation is 25 of Aug 2010). Of course I have mentioned that I have had the speeding issue (Magistrate Court) described above. (So, not even a year after the event). Now I am going to apply for a British Citizenship (I got the rest of – exam Life in the UK passed first time, etc.).

Question:
If I apply for a British Citizenship using Form AN – how this will end? Will I get a British Citizenship or most likely it will be rejected on the occasion and the issue described above?

If more details are needed - please do not hesitate to ask.

[geriatrix]

See Annex D: The good character requirement, (page 29 onwards, in particular).


regards

[edinburgh]

Hello

I'm not a specialist in the area, but my understanding is that your Permanent Residence card was issued as a confirmation of your residence as an EEA national (residency criterion only), whereas British Citizenship is considered to be a privilege (residency and good character criteria). In other words, every EEA national is entitled to a confirmation of their residence in an EEA member state, but not every EEA national is entitled to have an EEA member state's citizenship.

Best wishes

[Alvin88]

Hi,

Many thanks for your reply.

There is also a point which says:

3.2.5 Caseworkers should not normally disregard any unspent conviction that falls into the following categories irrespective of the severity of the sentence imposed:
a. Offences involving dishonesty (e.g. theft, fraud)
b. Offences involving violence
c. Offences involving unlawful sexual activity
d. Offences involving drugs
e. Offences which would constitute “recklessnessâ€

[ukpl]

my understanding is that your Permanent Residence card was issued as a confirmation of your residence as an EEA national (residency criterion only), whereas British Citizenship is considered to be a privilege

Correct.
PR is granted automatically after 5 years of exercising Treaty Rights regardless if one has PR card or not -> one's legal status doesn't depend on having PR card.

[Mr Rusty]

Alvin88,
You need to look more thoroughly at the link provided by sushdmehta, in particular the chart on pages 29/30 as suggested by him. Under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act you have to wait until your court conviction is "spent", i.e. it is no longer taken into account. The chart states that convictions resulting in a fine remain in force for 5 years. Points on your licence, the speed you were doing, anything else is irrelevant. You have a court conviction.
Therefore you will have to wait 5 years from the date of your conviction until you can successfully apply for British Citizenship.
I have heard of other cases the same - those who choose to drive on a foreign licence can not be given a fixed penalty, and have to go to court. The conviction they get does delay the application for citizenship.

[MPH80]

Nowhere, in the papers (apart from the document from the policeman) is mentioned that I was doing 103.1 mph, so it will be taken into acount as normal speeding , I think.

The shear fact you were issued 6 points rather than 3 indicates the speed was excessive.

http://www.speed-trap.co.uk/Accused_Hom ... SFines.htm

[edinburgh]

also, the fact that you had a non-uk licence complicates things - as a result, you had to go to court, rather than received your points on the licence straight away.

ultimately, it's your choice to apply for British Citizenship. personally, i don't see that big a difference if you apply, as you're an EEA national already.

on this forum, you asked what people thought about your problem. all in all, it'll be your decision if to apply or not for British Citizenship.

[Alvin88]

Many thanks for all of you for the reply.....

I really appreciate it.

Therefore you will have to wait 5 years from the date of your conviction until you can successfully apply for British Citizenship.

Five from which date:
the date of conviction - which 29 of May 2009 (+ 5 years = 30 of May 2014 - i can apply on that date)
or from the hearing in the court (24 of Nov 2009 - which makes it 25 of Nov 2014)?

Could you clarify this for me?



Well, yes, it is up to me - apply for it, or not, but the question is
a) --> would you like to get rid of your £780 (just like this - ie there is absolutely no chance to get the it),
b) --> there is about 70% chance that you won't get it
c) --> there is about 70% chance you will get it.

maybe (just maybe) some kind of explanation to the caseworker, such as below - might increase it to 80% in option c)
(although no one can be sure for 100% of course).

And I won't blame anyone if I won't get it.

Dear Mr Caseworker,

My issue with the Magistrate Court was due to some quirk in the law.
As a holder of an EU license I don't have to exchange it for a UK licence unless I want to.
I wanted to accept the Fixed Penalty Notice, but was unable to do so, due to above.
Therefore, could you be so kind and grant me a British Citizenship, as I am loyal and obedient
and promise to keep that way in the future?

So, I was offered a COFP (= Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty for traffic violations in UK)
but were unable to comply with it because of mine PL licence.

Therefore the issue ended up in the Magistrate Court, so I have to go there, plead guilty,
and pay whatever I had to pay.

I didn't questioned that or challenged it in the court.

I just go there to say - Yes, I am guilty. How can I pay and where and how much?

Does it make me criminal?

Best Regards,
--Me


Or maybe someone can re-word it with better English then mine is.

[edinburgh]

Many thanks for all of you for the reply.....

I really appreciate it.

Therefore you will have to wait 5 years from the date of your conviction until you can successfully apply for British Citizenship.

Five from which date:
the date of conviction - which 29 of May 2009 (+ 5 years = 30 of May 2014 - i can apply on that date)
or from the hearing in the court (24 of Nov 2009 - which makes it 25 of Nov 2014)?

Could you clarify this for me?



Well, yes, it is up to me - apply for it, or not, but the question is
a) --> would you like to get rid of your £780 (just like this - ie there is absolutely no chance to get the it),
b) --> there is about 70% chance that you won't get it
c) --> there is about 70% chance you will get it.

maybe (just maybe) some kind of explanation to the caseworker, such as below - might increase it to 80% in option c)
(although no one can be sure for 100% of course).

And I won't blame anyone if I won't get it.

Dear Mr Caseworker,

My issue with the Magistrate Court was due to some quirk in the law.
As a holder of an EU license I don't have to exchange it for a UK licence unless I want to.
I wanted to accept the Fixed Penalty Notice, but was unable to do so, due to above.
Therefore, could you be so kind and grant me a British Citizenship, as I am loyal and obedient
and promise to keep that way in the future?

So, I was offered a COFP (= Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty for traffic violations in UK)
but were unable to comply with it because of mine PL licence.

Therefore the issue ended up in the Magistrate Court, so I have to go there, plead guilty,
and pay whatever I had to pay.

I didn't questioned that or challenged it in the court.

I just go there to say - Yes, I am guilty. How can I pay and where and how much?

Does it make me criminal?

Best Regards,
--Me


Or maybe someone can re-word it with better English then mine is.

he he he ... what if you get a ms caseworker?

there are no quirks in law. law is law.

well, with all due respect, by exceeding your speed limit so much, you were risking your and someone else's life ... i don't think you get that, do you?

[ukpl]

Therefore you will have to wait 5 years from the date of your conviction until you can successfully apply for British Citizenship.

Five from which date:
the date of conviction - which 29 of May 2009 (+ 5 years = 30 of May 2014 - i can apply on that date)
or from the hearing in the court (24 of Nov 2009 - which makes it 25 of Nov 2014)?

Could you clarify this for me?

by the time of court hearing you were NOT convicted (you were suspect)
so the answer is the latter...

personally, I wouldn't apply as there is quite a big risk of being refused (and losing a lot of money) but it's up to you (do you know any people in your situation who got accepted?)

you may test the water and apply via NCS - if they tell you that you have no chance (and they will for sure phone UKBA to check it) then you will back off and only lose £30-£50 for NCS appointment instead of almost £800

unfortunately for you, conviction is not classed as a minor, regardless of the reason of getting it - speeding or not, conviction is a serious matter. you may feel it is unfair, but that's the way it is...

[Mr Rusty]

Many thanks for all of you for the reply.....

I really appreciate it.

Therefore you will have to wait 5 years from the date of your conviction until you can successfully apply for British Citizenship.

Five from which date:
the date of conviction - which 29 of May 2009 (+ 5 years = 30 of May 2014 - i can apply on that date)
or from the hearing in the court (24 of Nov 2009 - which makes it 25 of Nov 2014)?

Could you clarify this for me?



Well, yes, it is up to me - apply for it, or not, but the question is
a) --> would you like to get rid of your £780 (just like this - ie there is absolutely no chance to get the it),
b) --> there is about 70% chance that you won't get it
c) --> there is about 70% chance you will get it.

maybe (just maybe) some kind of explanation to the caseworker, such as below - might increase it to 80% in option c)
(although no one can be sure for 100% of course).

I'm not 100% sure, but I would assume the effective date to measure 5 years would be the date of conviction.

You can try to appeal to the discretion of the caseworker, but if you again consult the link provided by sushdmehta, you can see that the areas for exercise of discretion are clearly defined:-

"3.2.2 Where the applicant is of good character in all other respects caseworkers should normally be prepared to overlook a single minor unspent conviction resulting in:
a.
a bind-over order
b.
an absolute or conditional discharge
c.
admonition
d.
a relatively small fine or compensation order.
e.
a fixed penalty notice and Scottish fiscal fines - these fines are not classed as convictions and as such do not attract a spent period (see paragraph 3.2.3)."

I wouldn't advise you to dismiss your conviction as "a quirk in the law" which could be construed as disrespect for the law. As I said before, I have seen a case where someone was refused citizenship in exactly your circumstances - it's the law, pure and simple. If you want to try and persuade UKBA that £358 is a "relatively small fine" it's up to you.

Whilst your eagerness to become a British citizen is commendable, as an EEA citizen you are barely disadvantaged in having to wait an extra few years (and keep out of trouble).

[Alvin88]

It is me again and my problem with getting a British citizenship........

Well, i have done some research and here are the findings:

I have sent an e-mail to couple of Law Companies – e-mail like the one which started this thread:

First:
Answer from an Immigration Agency - they claim that they deal with the matter of all categories of UK visas and work permits and naturalisation on daily basis:

On an initial assessment, as your driving offence was committed over a year ago, and you have paid the fine etc, I do feel that it will be fine to submit an application for citizenship and that it will be approved. Your case worker here will double check this though, and will let you know if she has any concerns in this regard prior to submission of the application.

Second:
They claim that they have nearly 20 years of experience in all aspects of UK immigration law

As a general rule and, from my experience, an application for naturalisation is likely to be refused where there is an unspent conviction, even for minor offences. However every case needs to be considered on its merits. We have succeeded in obtaining naturalisation for clients with far more serious previous convictions in the past.

Two others done over the phone:
We don’t see a problem here – should be fine to apply and get it.

Test the water and apply via NCS – they say there is no chance for get a British citizenship.

My own phone call to Home Office --> 0845 010 5200 - option 2, then option 3 – there is no chance they said ….

Well, right now I am confused – why the lawyers said there is a chance, and some others – there is not?

Maybe, just maybe there is some truth in the old saying that some immigrants get it, start working for the Home Office, and now they are going to do whatever they can to make some difficulties for the others?

[geriatrix]

Please note: If you have received more than one sentence for any conviction you should ensure that each seperate sentence is spent under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 before you make an application.

For example: If you were convicted for speeding and received a 12 month driving disqualification and a fine - although the driving disqualification would be considered spent at the end of the 12 month period, the fine would not be spent for 5 years. You should therefore wait 5 years before you make an application for citizenship.

regards

[edinburgh]

...

[rg1]

I am intrigued why you want to waste money for British citizenship.

As EU national, you can already get all privileges as of British citizen.

[Alvin88]

to be honest, i really don't understand you. both the ncs and ho told you there would not be a chance of getting it, but you're still building hopes that an immigration company will miraculously get it for you? they do in some cases, but they're exceptions like someone being stateless, at the threat of being killed in their own country etc. you're not stateless

Well, I am just curious - one person is saying yes, we can do it for you - fee is .... + VAT. Maybe they are doing it just for the fee (pecunia non olet). Most of them are no winning, no fee agency, or at least they told me so (over the phone or via e-mail) ..... Example:

If we submit on your behalf the application will not be refused. We do not submit applications unless we are 100% confident in the likelihood of the applications success. If we have any concerns about the application we work them out first - we do not take a chance and submit the appliction. Thus you can rest assured that if your application is submitted by us it will be approved.
If however it is refused due to faulf of our own, our fee will be refunded to you.

Next case:

also, what's all that stuff about some immigrants starting to work for the ho and making it difficult for you to get citizenship blah blah? are you not right in your head? no-one is making your life difficult for the sake of it - it's the law here that is above all individuals and thank god for that! next time you drive, think! because of your speeding you could have killed someone and let it be a lesson for you.

Well - Yes, I have done wrong, sorry for that. You don't have to keep telling me about this all the time.

Dear edinburgh, I have looked at some of your post here - (~17 deleted? May I ask you why? For ~43 in total so far?)
No further question, Your Honour.


Simillar ones on this forum:
This is very interesting thread from this forum, and the case is even worse.

This one is also a hopeful

Next one

Two of those - one with mobile phone

OK. Do you own search on the word 'speeding' - maybe this one post will be a starting point to the issue.

I just asked that if someone have something similar in the past, heard about it, or maybe know something relevant....

That what is this forum all about I thought..... Or maybe people have something in common with the whole process (working in the agency, charity organisation, etc.) to help people get this BC.

Not just - we are a bunch of people who get a citizenship via naturalisation, and then we would like to get it harder for you (edinburgh) ....

Things like this:

Please note: If you have received more than one sentence for any conviction you should ensure that each seperate sentence is spent under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 before you make an application.

For example: If you were convicted for speeding and received a 12 month driving disqualification and a fine - although the driving disqualification would be considered spent at the end of the 12 month period, the fine would not be spent for 5 years. You should therefore wait 5 years before you make an application for citizenship.

regards

are not - for obvious reason (I just got one sentence - not more than one; yes - I was convicted for speeding, but not with ban).

Anyway, it will be interesting to see how many people are clean when applying for BC (no traffic offence, no offence at all). Maybe someone knows this statistic or data? This thread says something about this....

Anyway, you may wish to close this thread, delete it, or do whatever you wish to do.
I am just a client.

If - by any chance - someone wish to know the next part of the story - please do not hesitate to ask via private message.
If I get the message to my mailbox (and got your e-mail address) - i will reply.

If I get the chance - I will post the result on this forum.

[edinburgh]

noone is harsh on you; well, except me . i think people are trying to help you, including me, and not trying to make it harder for you, as you seem to think. i just can't comprehend why people would want to make it harder for you - what for??? after all, you apply and pay the fee, and it's the ukba that will look into your application, and not the people that are on this forum.

as regards my deleted posts - i didn't want me contributions to be on here anymore, and so i deleted them. is that not allowed? ooopss ... and i've just deleted the one above ...

the ball's in your court, mate, and do let us know how you get on.

[Alvin88]

Another piece of information.....

Q. What happens if my driving licence was issued by an authority other than DVLA (Swansea) e.g. a foreign licence?

Only driving licences issued by the DVLA (Swansea) can have the three penalty points endorsed under the fixed penalty system. Therefore, the matter will have to be dealt with by the magistrates’ court. The court will be made aware that the matter is only being heard at the court because the driver is not in possession of a DVLA driving licence.

It seems to be my case, indeed..........

[Alvin88]

Just to let you know that I have received letter with 'CITIZENSHIP INVITATION', this means that my application for the British citizenship has been approved.
I have received the letter on Monday, when I come back from my holiday...

Nice surprise.

Date on the letter is 06 June 2011, I have applied via NCS on Sat, 19 of March 2011, Home Office received my application on Tue 22 of March 2011 – if somebody is interested in those details…