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Directive/2004/38/EC
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Location: does not matter if you are with your EEA family member
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 Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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| agniukas wrote: | when applying as a self employed, you will have to provide evidence of running a viable business... business bank statements for 6 months, documents from revenue, that you are paying tax and are registered, ect.
Invoices and receipts from business for 6 months.
as a self sufficient, i don't think that a lump sum in your account is sufficient... you need to have CONSTANT in-flow of money... lets say one spouse is working and is getting money on a weekly/monthly basis, and then the other spouse can claim to be self sufficicient if provided evidence that the working spouse is fully supporting him/her without resources to the social welfare |
YES um NO.
There is no fixed requirement for self sufficiency. You do not have to have constant inflow of money. If you have, e.g. 79,231 euro, and no inflows, that will be enough.
Self employed is similar. There are NOT fixed requirements. There is not a requirement that you have already done business. If, for example, you are a consultant to companies in insolvency and have an established track record and have set up the structures you need to do business, you should be fine. (That does not mean you just claim, with zero evidence, that you are self employed, when in fact you just spend all your time drinking down at the pub.)
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Directive 2004/38/EC lays out free movement rules for EU citizens and their non-EU family members
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st pauli
Member of Standing
Joined: 26 May 2012
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the replies.
With reference to how it's done over the pond, the UKBA website it says
| Quote: | A qualified person is an EEA national who is in the UK and exercising a Treaty right as any of the following:
Job-seeker - The EEA national must be able to show evidence that they are seeking employment and have a genuine chance of being engaged, for example, evidence of job interviews, evidence of qualifications, registration with Job Centre / recruitment agencies.
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Is there a similar allowance made in the Republic of Ireland, for people to be in the country job-seeking after the initial 90 day period?
If you reach 90 days and can't show what's deemed to be self-sufficiency level funds and aren't employed, what happens in the first instance? |
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EUsmileWEallsmile
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Joined: 07 Oct 2011
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| agniukas wrote: | when applying as a self employed, you will have to provide evidence of running a viable business... business bank statements for 6 months, documents from revenue, that you are paying tax and are registered, ect.
Invoices and receipts from business for 6 months.
as a self sufficient, i don't think that a lump sum in your account is sufficient... you need to have CONSTANT in-flow of money... lets say one spouse is working and is getting money on a weekly/monthly basis, and then the other spouse can claim to be self sufficicient if provided evidence that the working spouse is fully supporting him/her without resources to the social welfare |
Perhaps, the Irish authorities have imposed something in particular (please advise if so), but...
For self-employed, there is no fixed 6 month rule. It is possible to be self-employed from day one (granted, it might be a little difficult to demonstrate).
For self-sufficient, national authorities are not allowed to specify a fixed amount. It would be certainly feasible for a person to have a fixed sum and live on it until it runs down. |
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EUsmileWEallsmile
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| st pauli wrote: |
Is €5,000 shown in a current account enough to apply for an 4EUFam for your spouse while not having employment, in respect of this whole self-sufficiency thing? |
It could be for a period of time, but you would need to replenish at some point.
If your outgoings were €1000 per month, then it would last for at least 5 months for example in the example you show. This might be acceptable if you could show how you planned to have an income later - from self-employment perhaps. |
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st pauli
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Joined: 26 May 2012
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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| EUsmileWEallsmile wrote: | | st pauli wrote: |
Is €5,000 shown in a current account enough to apply for an 4EUFam for your spouse while not having employment, in respect of this whole self-sufficiency thing? |
It could be for a period of time, but you would need to replenish at some point.
If your outgoings were €1000 per month, then it would last for at least 5 months for example in the example you show. This might be acceptable if you could show how you planned to have an income later - from self-employment perhaps. |
Thanks for the reply. What I'm trying to do is apply for 4EUFam card for my wife as soon as I arrive so that she can work ASAP (I know it takes six months in any case).
If I arrive and initially show an amount like 5 or 6k in my account, could I apply on the basis of this for whatever the permission for me to stay longer than 90 days is called (EU1?) and 4EUFam card for my wife, with the stated intention of finding work (not self-employment) later?
There's also a possibility I could keep an employed status working remotely for my current UK employer, but it could only be one or two days a week - so an extra 'income' of potentially 200 - 400 euro a month.
I'm just looking for a vague idea of where I stand really, apologies for not starting a new thread but I feel my questions are probably a bit too diffused to get many replies.
Cheers. |
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agniukas
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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your wife will have to fill in an application form EU1. check it from now and see how you would fill it up in relation to your exercise of EU treaty rights.
As a self sufficient, you will need to provide comprehensive medical insurance certificate (that's around 1000 euros per a year for 2 adults).
In my opinion, the sooner you find employment and apply on the basis of being a worker, the better and easier to satisfy the conditions. |
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st pauli
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| agniukas wrote: | your wife will have to fill in an application form EU1. check it from now and see how you would fill it up in relation to your exercise of EU treaty rights.
As a self sufficient, you will need to provide comprehensive medical insurance certificate (that's around 1000 euros per a year for 2 adults).
In my opinion, the sooner you find employment and apply on the basis of being a worker, the better and easier to satisfy the conditions. |
Thank you, I found the form online and to be see it written out like that actually did make things a bit clearer.
Is there any provision to count the resources of a third party (for example, the EU citizen's parents or grandparents) towards self-sufficiency?
I've heard of this being permitted in some other EU member states, where such a third party writes a letter/delcaration stating the EU citizen has access to their income to help support themselves - but I don't know if this is allowed in every EU state, particularly in Ireland....the form does refer to 'other evidence of financial resources', would this come under that or doesn't it wash over there? |
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EUsmileWEallsmile
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| agniukas wrote: | | In my opinion, the sooner you find employment and apply on the basis of being a worker, the better and easier to satisfy the conditions. |
It is certainly easier for a worker to demonstrate entitlement to benefit from the directive than some other categories. |
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EUsmileWEallsmile
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| st pauli wrote: | | with the stated intention of finding work (not self-employment) later? |
It is also possible to benefit from the terms of the directive if one is seeking work. If you haven't done so, please read directive 2004/38/EC. |
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Directive/2004/38/EC
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Location: does not matter if you are with your EEA family member
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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The requirements of EU law apply to all EU member states.
Resources for the EU citizen can come from anywhere, including work and savings of their partner.
Focus on getting a job as soon as possible in Ireland.
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Directive 2004/38/EC lays out free movement rules for EU citizens and their non-EU family members
See blog |
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st pauli
Member of Standing
Joined: 26 May 2012
Posts: 122
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Directive/2004/38/EC wrote: | The requirements of EU law apply to all EU member states.
Resources for the EU citizen can come from anywhere, including work and savings of their partner.
Focus on getting a job as soon as possible in Ireland. |
This is absolutely my intention, but looking at the Irish economy (not that anywhere in Europe is exactly booming right now) I'm just trying to make contingency plans for if it's not immediately possible.
If I can be judged as exercising treaty rights as a 'jobseeker' for a couple of months after the 90 days, due to having enough funds to self-support for those couple of months that would be fine. |
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EUsmileWEallsmile
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| st pauli wrote: | | Directive/2004/38/EC wrote: | The requirements of EU law apply to all EU member states.
Resources for the EU citizen can come from anywhere, including work and savings of their partner.
Focus on getting a job as soon as possible in Ireland. |
This is absolutely my intention, but looking at the Irish economy (not that anywhere in Europe is exactly booming right now) I'm just trying to make contingency plans for if it's not immediately possible.
If I can be judged as exercising treaty rights as a 'jobseeker' for a couple of months after the 90 days, due to having enough funds to self-support for those couple of months that would be fine. |
Read through directive 2004/38/EC. Note in particular article 14.4 and recital 9. |
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st pauli
Member of Standing
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Posts: 122
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| EUsmileWEallsmile wrote: | | st pauli wrote: | | Directive/2004/38/EC wrote: | The requirements of EU law apply to all EU member states.
Resources for the EU citizen can come from anywhere, including work and savings of their partner.
Focus on getting a job as soon as possible in Ireland. |
This is absolutely my intention, but looking at the Irish economy (not that anywhere in Europe is exactly booming right now) I'm just trying to make contingency plans for if it's not immediately possible.
If I can be judged as exercising treaty rights as a 'jobseeker' for a couple of months after the 90 days, due to having enough funds to self-support for those couple of months that would be fine. |
Read through directive 2004/38/EC. Note in particular article 14.4 and recital 9. |
Thanks, I've just read that and it appears I can't be expelled or any other such serious business if I'm bona fide continuing to search for work and have a chance of getting it, which is great, just what I wanted to know.
If an EU citizen is benefiting from the terms of the directive as a jobseeker, can their spouse have a temporary Stamp 4 straight away and also begin looking for work straight away? |
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Directive/2004/38/EC
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Posts: 6424
Location: does not matter if you are with your EEA family member
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st pauli
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Posts: 122
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks I've bookmarked those.
I was under the impression at first that my wife couldn't work until she received her actual physical 4EUFam card which would have been a bit of a headache.
I think possibly going down to that DJEI address at Adelaide Street to get clarity of the situation when we arrive might be the best bet? |
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EUsmileWEallsmile
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| st pauli wrote: |
I was under the impression at first that my wife couldn't work until she received her actual physical 4EUFam card which would have been a bit of a headache.
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Article 23 of the directive will be of interest. |
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Directive/2004/38/EC
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Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 6424
Location: does not matter if you are with your EEA family member
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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I called DJEI last year about this. Specifically I called about the fact that family members now did not have to pay the fee, but had to satisfy the other requirements of the work permit.
They seemed a bit sheepish on the phone. Like they did not know what to say.
I suspect you will have to push them. But will get there in the end.
When, roughly, are you thinking of moving to Ireland? In a week or in several months?
_________________
Directive 2004/38/EC lays out free movement rules for EU citizens and their non-EU family members
See blog |
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st pauli
Member of Standing
Joined: 26 May 2012
Posts: 122
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Directive/2004/38/EC wrote: | I called DJEI last year about this. Specifically I called about the fact that family members now did not have to pay the fee, but had to satisfy the other requirements of the work permit.
They seemed a bit sheepish on the phone. Like they did not know what to say.
I suspect you will have to push them. But will get there in the end.
When, roughly, are you thinking of moving to Ireland? In a week or in several months? |
The latter. Most likely May 2013. |
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Directive/2004/38/EC
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Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 6424
Location: does not matter if you are with your EEA family member
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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So now is the time to complain to the European Commission. It takes them time to get involved. You can explain that Ireland used to be doing the right thing, but they have changed and now are not letting spouses of EU citizens work easily on their arrival.
_________________
Directive 2004/38/EC lays out free movement rules for EU citizens and their non-EU family members
See blog |
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st pauli
Member of Standing
Joined: 26 May 2012
Posts: 122
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:35 am Post subject: |
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| Directive/2004/38/EC wrote: | | So now is the time to complain to the European Commission. It takes them time to get involved. You can explain that Ireland used to be doing the right thing, but they have changed and now are not letting spouses of EU citizens work easily on their arrival. |
I'm not clear from that website though, exactly what conditions they ARE now imposing/attempting to impose on spouses to let them work?
In any case am I allowed to complain just as a random person who isn't affected by this 'in real time' ? |
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