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wiggsy
Senior Member
Posts: 849
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:59 pm
Location: Warwickshire, UK

Post by wiggsy » Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:04 am

Dude,

Seriously, put the Zambrano application in too...

FLR(O) is the wrong application... She has overstayed, and therefore it will be refused... She also has no valid leave to remain.

Whilst zambrano - Derivative right of residence wont give her perm residency... it gets her in a position with valid leave ETC.

Like i say... whilst the UK claim that you have to be a SOLE carer for the child... the Zambrano ruling didnt state this... it stated you cannot remove a third country national who is the parent of a eu citizen child.

she has overstayed by 2 or 3 years...
my wifes application was made a few months after her leave expired (although this leave was a tourist visa).

did she say why FLR(O) and not FLR(M)?

also, the zambrano application is FREE... you have nothing to loose... put it in... at least you wont have to be afraid of them knocking the door for the next six months or so...

The JSA your claiming might also go against her... one of the things that were listed in my wifes application refusal that i could use my skills that i have learnt via various employment to take it to her country despite not knowing the language etc (they claimed we spoke a common language so my wife could interpretate for me lol??) [i do speak a little indonesian, but not fantastically] - despite having a child from previous relationship, my parents and siblings ETC all in this country, they also claimed that I had no real connections to the UK.

mind you... looking at the FLR(O) guidance again, perhaps it was my solicitor who was wrong...
1 FOR WHICH APPLICATIONS MUST YOU USE FORM FLR(O)?
Form FLR(O) must be used if you are applying for an extension of stay in one of the following categories:
• General visitor
• Long residence in the UK
• Dependants of exempt members of HM Forces
• Domestic worker in a private household
• UK ancestry
• Visitor for private medical treatment
• Family life as a parent of a child in the UK
• Private life in the UK

• other purposes/reasons not covered by other application forms
i guess the application is based on parent of child and private life (your partner being a student prior must have a lot of friends/etc here now?)

but you can have more than one application in at the same time ;) bear that in mind...

Greenie
Respected Guru
Posts: 7374
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:45 pm
United Kingdom

Post by Greenie » Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:56 am

FLR(O) is not the wrong application. Please, stop giving people advice on matters you are not clear on.
FLR(M) is for those that meet the requirements of the immigration rules ah a spouse.

FLR(O) in this context is used when an applicant does not meet all the requirements of the immigration rules (eg the financial requirements, or the applicant is an overstayer) but the applicant wishes to argue that they meet the requirements of para EX.1 eg she has a British child and it would not be reasonable for the child to have to leave the UK.

east579
Newbie
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:04 pm

Post by east579 » Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:55 pm

Many thanks for everybody's help it eases my mind a little so i can put the Zambrano application in as well? alongside the FLR(O) or should i really just await the outcome of the FLR(O) application first? then send the other application.

Also when i see my caseworker again is there any specific things i should point her towards regarding Zambrano she doesn't seem very sure about it, you mention the UK say one thing but the ruling says another.

wiggsy
Senior Member
Posts: 849
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:59 pm
Location: Warwickshire, UK

Post by wiggsy » Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:22 pm

Greenie wrote:FLR(O) is not the wrong application. Please, stop giving people advice on matters you are not clear on.
FLR(M) is for those that meet the requirements of the immigration rules ah a spouse.
Partner! - not only spouse - includes unmarried partners....
Greenie wrote: FLR(O) in this context is used when an applicant does not meet all the requirements of the immigration rules (eg the financial requirements, or the applicant is an overstayer) but the applicant wishes to argue that they meet the requirements of para EX.1 eg she has a British child and it would not be reasonable for the child to have to leave the UK.
And did you read my response... I actually corrected myself... ^ I accepted I was wrong before you raised this one, mate...

I was advised by solicitor (Tyndalwoods in Birmingham) that the correct application was an FLR(M) and that FLR(O) was the wrong application for us... - As I said, it appears that my solicitor was the wrong one on there... and that FLR(O) *DOES* appear to be the correct application.

So :)

- The actual ruling on zambrano was:

On those grounds, the Court (Grand Chamber) hereby rules:

Article 20 TFEU is to be interpreted as meaning that it precludes a Member State from refusing a third country national upon whom his minor children, who are European Union citizens, are dependent, a right of residence in the Member State of residence and nationality of those children, and from refusing to grant a work permit to that third country national, in so far as such decisions deprive those children of the genuine enjoyment of the substance of the rights attaching to the status of European Union citizen.
It states nothing about being a sole carer etc... - and the UN rights of a child states that a child is entitled to a life with both parents etc...


UKBA states:
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/eucit ... erivative/
as the primary carer of a British citizen child or dependent adult, where requiring the primary carer to leave the UK would force that British citizen to leave the EEA;
I cant find the actual post now, but another news post stated basically that "if there is another person who could assume the role of primary carer, then this would be seen as removing the third country national would not effectively force the BC to leave the country."

east579
Newbie
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:04 pm

Post by east579 » Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:46 pm

"I cant find the actual post now, but another news post stated basically that "if there is another person who could assume the role of primary carer, then this would be seen as removing the third country national would not effectively force the BC to leave the country."
So how could this help me? as all ukba will say is my partner has to leave and the child stays with me(making me the primary carer) that way mine or my child's rights as eu citizens haven't been affected all that happens is my child just ends up losing his mother.

east579
Newbie
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:04 pm

Post by east579 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:57 am

Come on wiggsy you've gone quiet.

east579
Newbie
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:04 pm

Post by east579 » Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:13 pm

east579 wrote:Come on wiggsy you've gone quiet.
Wiggsy any update on your Zambrano application?

wiggsy
Senior Member
Posts: 849
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:59 pm
Location: Warwickshire, UK

Post by wiggsy » Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:42 am

sorry, been really busy last few weeks.
east579 wrote: So how could this help me? as all ukba will say is my partner has to leave and the child stays with me(making me the primary carer) that way mine or my child's rights as eu citizens haven't been affected all that happens is my child just ends up losing his mother.
well thats the problem...

but there are ways and means around it... for instance, I have sent a copy of my drs details off to show my ill health, and welcomed / given written authorisation to them to contact my doctor. - who will state that caring for a child would not be in my interests or the childs best interests ( i take lots of pain killers so can be drowsy etc... )

this is a FOI response... at the very least until a decision is made, for the 6 months or so, your overstaying partner/wife is legal in the country.
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/1 ... 026321.pdf
should they refuse, then you can put an appeal in...

Obviously, the final decision is yours to make...

but i reitterate: the case C34/09 didnt state SOLE PRIMARY CARER... it states PARENT WHO THE CHILD IS DEPENDANT UPON

Dependancy can be: Financial, Physical, OR Emotional.

east579
Newbie
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:04 pm

Post by east579 » Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:14 am

wiggsy wrote:sorry, been really busy last few weeks.
east579 wrote: So how could this help me? as all ukba will say is my partner has to leave and the child stays with me(making me the primary carer) that way mine or my child's rights as eu citizens haven't been affected all that happens is my child just ends up losing his mother.
well thats the problem...

but there are ways and means around it... for instance, I have sent a copy of my drs details off to show my ill health, and welcomed / given written authorisation to them to contact my doctor. - who will state that caring for a child would not be in my interests or the childs best interests ( i take lots of pain killers so can be drowsy etc... )

this is a FOI response... at the very least until a decision is made, for the 6 months or so, your overstaying partner/wife is legal in the country.
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/1 ... 026321.pdf
should they refuse, then you can put an appeal in...

Obviously, the final decision is yours to make...

but i reitterate: the case C34/09 didnt state SOLE PRIMARY CARER... it states PARENT WHO THE CHILD IS DEPENDANT UPON

Dependancy can be: Financial, Physical, OR Emotional.
We have just submitted the FLR(O) Application and are awaiting a response i will wait until a decision has been made on this then put in the zambrano application.
Im very scared for my partner and our child.

Greenie
Respected Guru
Posts: 7374
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:45 pm
United Kingdom

Post by Greenie » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:39 pm

Try not to worry.even if ukba refuse you will succeed on appeal. They won't remove the mother of a British child.

east579
Newbie
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:04 pm

Post by east579 » Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:56 pm

Greenie wrote:Try not to worry.even if ukba refuse you will succeed on appeal. They won't remove the mother of a British child.
Thanks for the words of support Greenie they are much appreciated.

wiggsy
Senior Member
Posts: 849
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:59 pm
Location: Warwickshire, UK

Post by wiggsy » Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:20 am

Greenie wrote: They won't remove the mother of a British child.
^ agreed with this... nothing other than reporting restrictions on my wife since 2010... and the staff at reporting centre basically confirm this... (it all goes to the fact that if they attempt to remove, it can go to court - and human rights etc... no action = no court)

plus the fact is... EU law states that Parent of EU citizen has the right to reside and work in the home country of the eu child. - so they cant do anything... - IF UKBA do turn up just remember to have all information on the case of Zambrano to hand to confirm your partners right to reside... along with the april charging document which clearly states that EU EEA document of registration is not mandatory.

(you dont want them to complete an overstayers form, or stick your wife onto an IS96... :) - and if they do do this, remember to complain hard and loud about it...) - also, just remember to make it clear that your wife is the primary carer for your child... (she takes to all dr apts, school deals with partner, ETC)

and finally - DONT WORRY... Dont let them ruin your lives.

I honestly hope your FLR(o) goes through. Please post your progress with it... *It is* your best route! - apparently zambrano wont give you the 10 yr family life route for ILR either...

I am considering as to whether we will go to Ireland and i work there for a while.... or attempt another FLR application -

esp on the no ILR or PR on Zambrano route. - however, we will wait for a DRC before leaving the country (so as to ensure we can visit famiy/friends in the UK without problems)

with the FLR application, considering our last one was before the ECJ c34/09 ruling, which gave the right to reside... it should hopefully be different for your partners application... on the basis that your partner currently have a legal right to reside within the UK (Zambrano) - even though she hasnt registered with UKBA for this right (the right is automatic)

east579
Newbie
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:04 pm

Post by east579 » Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:36 am

wiggsy wrote:
Greenie wrote: They won't remove the mother of a British child.
^ agreed with this... nothing other than reporting restrictions on my wife since 2010... and the staff at reporting centre basically confirm this... (it all goes to the fact that if they attempt to remove, it can go to court - and human rights etc... no action = no court)

plus the fact is... EU law states that Parent of EU citizen has the right to reside and work in the home country of the eu child. - so they cant do anything... - IF UKBA do turn up just remember to have all information on the case of Zambrano to hand to confirm your partners right to reside... along with the april charging document which clearly states that EU EEA document of registration is not mandatory.

(you dont want them to complete an overstayers form, or stick your wife onto an IS96... :) - and if they do do this, remember to complain hard and loud about it...) - also, just remember to make it clear that your wife is the primary carer for your child... (she takes to all dr apts, school deals with partner, ETC)

and finally - DONT WORRY... Dont let them ruin your lives.

I honestly hope your FLR(o) goes through. Please post your progress with it... *It is* your best route! - apparently zambrano wont give you the 10 yr family life route for ILR either...

I am considering as to whether we will go to Ireland and i work there for a while.... or attempt another FLR application -

esp on the no ILR or PR on Zambrano route. - however, we will wait for a DRC before leaving the country (so as to ensure we can visit famiy/friends in the UK without problems)

with the FLR application, considering our last one was before the ECJ c34/09 ruling, which gave the right to reside... it should hopefully be different for your partners application... on the basis that your partner currently have a legal right to reside within the UK (Zambrano) - even though she hasnt registered with UKBA for this right (the right is automatic)
Thanks for all your help and advise wiggsy your my hero me and my partner are not married yet does this make a difference?.

Also can you point me to all the stuff i will need as reference encase they come knocking and is it possible for you to highlight the parts that are relevant .

I cant thank you enough for all the advise you have given me.

wiggsy
Senior Member
Posts: 849
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:59 pm
Location: Warwickshire, UK

Post by wiggsy » Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:35 am

east579 wrote: Thanks for all your help and advise wiggsy your my hero me and my partner are not married yet does this make a difference?.
http://www.ein.org.uk/blog/how-zambrano ... egulations

I would assume it doesnt make any difference... your wifes right to reside for your FLR claim is based on your child more than you...

and then we have this: (referenced from link above - and this is why as greenie said, even if you fail innitially, you should get it on appeal...)
It is clear that this aspect of the Zambrano judgment has informed the drafting of exception EX.1 in the immigration rules, albeit within the deeply flawed framework of UKBA's attempt to predetermine and codify the circumstances under which Article 8 will be breached. That is made clear in the Immigration Directorate Instruction Chapter 8 'Guidance on application of EX1 – consideration of a child's best interests under Appendix FM (family rules)' where Zambrano is specifically referenced (paragraph 7) to inform the guidance that:

"11. In cases where the decision being taken in respect of the person with parental responsibility would require that person to return to a country outside of the EU then the case must always be assessed on the basis that it would be unreasonable for the child to leave the UK with their parent. In such cases it will usually be the case that the person with parental responsibility will be allowed to stay in the UK with the child provided that there is satisfactory evidence of a genuine and subsisting relationship."
east579 wrote: Also can you point me to all the stuff i will need as reference encase they come knocking and is it possible for you to highlight the parts that are relevant .
its all over the place... lots of information to read through, google it..

lots of links in this thread...

particularly google "Case C-34/09" and print that... highlight the very end of the report - the judgement...

april chargings from ukba website (ill find links)

and a print out of ukbas website...

also, read through the link above...
east579 wrote: I cant thank you enough for all the advise you have given me.
its not advice from me - i only got this info from this forum, which sparked a shed load of googling.[/u]


-links

Derivative Right of Residence:
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/eucit ... erivative/
Do you need to apply?

You do not need to obtain documents confirming your derivative right of residence in the UK. However, you may be inconvenienced if you do not obtain this confirmation, as:
you may have difficulty proving that you are lawfully resident in the UK;
if you leave the UK, you will usually need to obtain an EEA family permit before returning here; and
you may find it difficult to obtain or change employment.
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/eucit ... erivative/
Types of derivative rights of residence

A person may qualify for a derivative right of residence in one of the following categories:
as the primary carer of a British citizen child or dependent adult, where requiring the primary carer to leave the UK would force that British citizen to leave the EEA;
(and produce this along with the quote above - albeit from the Immigration rules guidance regs on EX.1. - it states that if the non-eea national has to leave the EU it should be stated that the child would be expected to leave also... - every little helps :))

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... s-2013.pdf
page 3 - note 3.

the actual ruling for case c-34/09

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 34:EN:HTML
On those grounds, the Court (Grand Chamber) hereby rules:

Article 20 TFEU is to be interpreted as meaning that it precludes a Member State from refusing a third country national upon whom his minor children, who are European Union citizens, are dependent, a right of residence in the Member State of residence and nationality of those children, and from refusing to grant a work permit to that third country national, in so far as such decisions deprive those children of the genuine enjoyment of the substance of the rights attaching to the status of European Union citizen.
that along with the fact you currently have your FLR(o) application in, should hopefully help stop any unwanted problems...

wiggsy
Senior Member
Posts: 849
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:59 pm
Location: Warwickshire, UK

Post by wiggsy » Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:06 am

OK, so its been lots of emails etc... i thought I would post an update so far:
since wifes right to work was confirmed: nothing new except I got my passport back from UKBA... this took a lot of work to accomplish though.

im posting a number of emails I have sent out to UKBA and Rob Whiteman outlining the rights of my wife... (note: these points are raised for ALL FAMILIES WITH CHILDREN - THEY ARE STRONGER IF THE CHILD IS BRITISH/EU As EU Law backs it up too...

Ive also sent emails to my MP, and requested a Parlimentary Ombudsman case be opened. (note: this is not only because of the fact they wont give my wife leave to remain, but the attitude of staff also.)
my wife reported in feb and she was spoken to like sh*t. she was told she wont be allowed into ireland, and that her only option was to go home - this was clearly very discriminative.. as im sure we all know the definition of home is the place of residence of somebody - where somebody eats, sleepts, and lives with their family ETC... my complaint was ignored... therefore...

From: me...
To: "UKBACustomerComplaints@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk" <UKBACustomerComplaints@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk>; "liverpooleuro.passportreturns@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk" <liverpooleuro.passportreturns@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk>; "EREC@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk" <EREC@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk>
Cc: "Nadhim.zahawi.mp@parliament.uk" <Nadhim.zahawi.mp@parliament.uk>
Sent: Saturday, 30 March 2013, 6:28
Subject: Return of Passports / Further Information


Mr ...
[address]


Sat 30th March 2013.

FAO: Paula Scott / UKBA
CC: Nadhim Zahawi

* MP Ref: nnn
* Home Office Ref: (Its a long reference) - mmmm - Royal Mail Package: mmm (Delivered on 15th Jan 2013) HO Ref: mmm and Case ID: mmmm

Perhaps (well, no, I am actually pretty sure that) the following should also be taken into consideration, when UKBA consider Zambrano...

The United Nations Declaration of the Rights of the Child
http://www.un.org/cyberschoolbus/humanr ... /child.asp

Specifically Article's 1 and 6.

In addition to the specific statement: "to the end that he may have a happy childhood ". (We all know children prosper with both parents present.


6. The child, for the full and harmonious development of his personality, needs love and understanding. He shall, wherever possible, grow up in the care and under the responsibility of his parents, and, in any case, in an atmosphere of affection and of moral and material security; a child of tender years shall not, save in exceptional circumstances, be separated from his mother. Society and the public authorities shall have the duty to extend particular care to children without a family and to those without adequate means of support. Payment of State and other assistance towards the maintenance of children of large families is desirable.




As I a request has already been sent for my wifes application to be processed with urgency, and you have recieved numerous requests for our travel documents etc to be returned, I cannot see the hold up with complying with either a written statement of why you will not process the application with urgency, or indeed process the appliction.



Please inform us of what stage my wifes application is currently being held...



Obviously, with all of the evidence, and the level of dependancy on my wife by three British Citizens (two children and one adult - myself) I do not see what the issue is with confirming her right to reside by way of a DRC.



And even more so, As obviously, my wife is the Primary Carer for both children. The Declaration of the Rights of the Child states that you cannot seperate the mother and young child.



I understand that UKBA are also aware that should the application for a DRC be refused, upon appeal the ruling would be over turned. - following on from the guidance refered to in previous messages in relation to the Ex1 for the FLR application...



So, Once again, I repeat:



Please return all documents held by UKBA. This is not a request to cancel the application for confirmation of my wifes right to reside but simply to return all documents held. Including Passports / Marriage Certificate / Birth Certificates ETC.



The United Nations INTERNATIONAL COVENANT ON CIVIL AND POLITICAL RIGHTS states in Article 12 the following:


Article 12
1.Everyone lawfully within the territory of a State shall, within that territory, have the right to liberty of movement and freedom to choose his residence.
2.Everyone shall be free to leave any country, including his own.
3.The above-mentioned rights shall not be subject to any restrictions except those which are provided by law, are necessary to protect national security, public order (ordre public), public health or morals or the rights and freedoms of others, and are consistent with the other rights recognized in the present Covenant.
4.No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of the right to enter his own country.



Once again I refer to the restrictions imposed upon my wife stating that she must reside at [our address]. This appears to breach Article 12.1



And Article 12.2 appears to be broken by UKBA withholding our passports. A person is not free to leave a country if they cannot obtain their passport, which has been held unlawfully.

Yours,

xxxx
From: me....
To: me....; "UKBACustomerComplaints@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk" <UKBACustomerComplaints@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk>; "liverpooleuro.passportreturns@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk" <liverpooleuro.passportreturns@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk>; "EREC@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk" <EREC@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk>
Cc: "Nadhim.zahawi.mp@parliament.uk" <Nadhim.zahawi.mp@parliament.uk>
Sent: Saturday, 30 March 2013, 15:08
Subject: Re: Return of Passports / Further Information



name
address


Sat 30th March 2013.


FAO: Paula Scott / UKBA
CC: Nadhim Zahawi


* MP Ref: ccccc
* Home Office Ref: (Its a long reference) - mmmm - Royal Mail Package: mmm (Delivered on 15th Jan 2013) HO Ref: mmm and Case ID: mmmm

In addition,


Arcticle 24 (of charter of fundamental rights of EU)

Rights of a Child:

Reads as follows:

2. In all actions relating to children, wheather taken by public or
private instistions,the child's best interest must be a primary
consideration.

3. Every child shall have the right to maintain a personal
relationship on a regular basis and a direct contact with both his
or her both parents, unless that is in contrast to his or her best
interests.
yours, me...
From: me......
To: ......me.....; "UKBACustomerComplaints@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk" <UKBACustomerComplaints@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk>; "liverpooleuro.passportreturns@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk" <liverpooleuro.passportreturns@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk>; "EREC@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk" <EREC@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk>
Cc: "Nadhim.zahawi.mp@parliament.uk" <Nadhim.zahawi.mp@parliament.uk>
Sent: Thursday, 4 April 2013, 5:21
Subject: Futher information...

Mr ...
[address]



FAO: Paula Scott / UKBA

CC: Nadhim Zahawi


* MP Ref: xxxx
* Home Office Ref: (Its a long reference) - mmmm - Royal Mail Package: mmm (Delivered on 15th Jan 2013) HO Ref: mmm and Case ID: mmmm

So, another day passes, and another day without either my passport on my doormat, or a response from UKBA.

I thought I would send a very useful link, which is a clear reading of the UN's rights of a child...

http://www.crae.org.uk/rights/uncrc.html

I particularly like Article 7, point 2.... stating BOTH parents...

"Does the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child apply in the UK?

YES, the UK Government agreed to make all laws, policy and practice compatible with the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child when it ratified it on 16 December 1991 (though it registered some reservations which have since been removed). As international law, the Convention is meant to be followed and should be referred to by courts, tribunals and other administrative processes when making decisions that affect children."

Obviously, a Zambrano ruling is based upon children therefore this very strong international LAW should bear a lot of weight within any response to my wifes application as the primary carer for myself, and our two children.



Yours,

....

From: meee
To: "Rob.Whiteman@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk" <Rob.Whiteman@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk>
Cc: "EREC@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk" <EREC@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk>; "UKBACustomerComplaints@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk" <UKBACustomerComplaints@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk>; "liverpooleuro.passportreturns@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk" <liverpooleuro.passportreturns@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk>; "Nadhim.zahawi.mp@parliament.uk" <Nadhim.zahawi.mp@parliament.uk>
Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 4:44
Subject: Complaints - Updated List.... Including breaches of FOI Act by UKBA...

name
address

Date: As Emailed

FAO: Rob Whiteman
CC: Nadhim Zahawi / Paula Scott

* MP Ref: xx
* Home Office Ref: (Its a long reference) - Mrs xx - Royal Mail Package: xx(Delivered on 15th Jan 2013) HO Ref: xx and Case ID: xx



Dear Mr Whiteman,

I am writing today in relation to a number of complaints that I have with the service of your staff, both in the European team, and the Solihull Reporting Centre.

As outlined numerous times previously, in emails to UKBACustomerComplaints@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk, liverpooleuro.passportreturns@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk and EREC@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk I requested the passports of myself, my daughter and my wife be returned back in Jan 2013. This has not been done.

I have highlighted numerous laws which state that a government cannot withhold travel documents, and prevent a person leaving any country - even his own. UKBA fail to respond to this.

My wife has been discriminated against on a number of occasions when she has been to her reporting sessions, and in various FOI requests that I have made, it is clear that a large number of your staff have the same discriminative attitude.

My wife made an application to remain in the country in 2010, which was reliant upon article 8 of the ECHR. This application was refused with no right of appeal. However, as the application was insistant upon my wifes need to leave the UK this should have attracted a right of appeal.

Further to this, I have been a worker in the EEA (Finland) in 2004. I worked for the Espoo Institute of Business. My wife submitted an EEA2 application to Euro (details above), which included a letter from my employer - the assistant principle at the school. I outlined that I have been active in the EEA and that further to Directive 2004/38/EC my wifes application should also be viewed as the spouse of an EEA national - I draw attention to the memo attached in Annex A of your FOI response 23660 (Available here: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... 023660.pdf

-----

4. Legal advice has clarified that the British sponsor in a Surinder Singh case does not need to prove that s/he continues to be a worker or self-employed person upon his/her return to the United Kingdom. The UK national is only required to show that s/he was a worker or self-sufficient person before returning to the United Kingdom. The UK national is not required to be a qualified person under the Regulations following his return to the UK.

-----



I have supplied evidence that I have been a worker in another EEA member state, yet a response to the DWP about my wifes case states that she currently has an application in for Derivative Residence under the EEA regulations - the response omits the fact that she also has an application as the partner of an EEA National (which under directive 2004/38/EC I must be treated as an EEA National upon my return - The directive states no time limit for when this treatment ends! - and infact Case ) - I am stating again... My wifes application should be treated under Singh, and Zambrano. I would appriciate written acknowledgement of this message. - and written confirmation that my wifes application shall be treated as the following:

1) The family member of an EEA National (Myself)

2) The Primary Carer of *THREE* British Citizens - Zambrano.

2a) daughters name

2b) baby sons name

2c) Myself - name



Any such refusal of my wifes right to reside in the UK should be based on all four points above! - Including a full explaination of how you have considered the rights of the children in a refusal...

I note: recent UK case law has actually stated that the time between the economic activity within Europe and return to the UK does not matter. I'm more than willing to take any possible refusal to court to add further case law. I can however provide numerous case law examples which should be considered by yourselves - as a court of law would certainly consider them.

I have given you written permission to contact my GP should further information be required as to my personal health, or to contact myself and I can forward the information on to yourselves.

The 'Evidential Flexibility' policy states that should evidence be available and you require it, you must give the applicant sufficient chance to provide the evidence. Evidence of our childrens dependancy upon my wife can be provided should further evidence be required... Evidence of my dependancy upon my wife can be provided should it be required. This can also be obtained from my GP directly in the form of medical records - which I have previously given written permission to obtain. (Note: I have also sent a copy of my Blue Badge into yourselves, which I'm sure everybody in the department is aware of the qualifying factor to obtain, along with my prescription list with a list of medications I am currently taking).

The UKBA have failed to respond to many FOI requests posted by myself and others. Infact the UKBA have breached the FOI Act 2000 in a very recent request by myself.

I draw your attention to: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... _residence

I requested very specific documentation under the terms of the Freedom of Information Act which has not been complied with.



This is not the only instance of when I have failed to recieve a response to a very real freedom of information request. I understand that the UKBA previously held Executive Agency status that has now been lost. However, this did not give UKBA power to break laws.

A list of other FOI requests can be found here:

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... ing-374264 < UKBA failed to respond, request from janurary...

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... ing-373837 < your own internal review concluded that the response failed to meet the requirements of the FOI act

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... ing-373723 < ukba fail to respond, request from janurary



https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... ing-372940 < the request was sparked by previous request, which stated that no further guidance was held on the issuance of a COA... If this statement was correct, then by the legislation of FOI Act, a response should of been made swiftly (this can even mean FASTER than 20 working days - as outlined previously ^) -should the guidance requested in this FOI request exist, it means the response to the initial request withheld information requested, and illegally covered up the information being held...



https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... ing-370844 < click on "show quoted sections" i draw attention to the response of UKBA on 28th Feb - look at the quoted email from UKBA - Subject Line - Internal review of Freedom of Information request - EEA Family Permits (Wife & Mother of British Citizens .... UKBA failed on its own obligation to conduct an internal review of my request within the timelines it publishes...



https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... ing-261299 < requested information on what is considered as a public fund as per ukba and its statement of "No recourse to public funds" and a list of benefits which the partner / spouse of a british citizen is able to access... - as explained on your own guidance... - this request was ignored, despite further reminders...



https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... ing-261297 < another FOI request ignored - in relation to Universal Credits and removal of Working / Child tax credits...



https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... ing-369110 < your response was late, and your internal review played down the fact that your response was late... a late response is still a breach of the FOI Act... a day or a month, its a breach... - If my car insurance expires today, and I drive my car on a public highway tomorrow... Can I use the excuse "Oh, its only a day" when I go before a judge for driving without insurance?

Now, with the complaints above, I would expect a full written response. My address is included above. Should further information be required, I would be more than happy to response by either email or post.



Yours,
Mr mmmmmm
From: me.....
To: "UKBACustomerComplaints@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk" <UKBACustomerComplaints@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk>; "liverpooleuro.passportreturns@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk" <liverpooleuro.passportreturns@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk>; "EREC@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk" <EREC@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk>
Cc: "Nadhim.zahawi.mp@parliament.uk" <Nadhim.zahawi.mp@parliament.uk>
Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 2:25
Subject: Re: Futher information...


name
address

Date: As Emailed

FAO: Paula Scott / Rob Whiteman
CC: Nadhim Zahawi

* MP Ref: nnn
* Home Office Ref: (Its a long reference) - Mrs nnnLL - Royal Mail Package: c (Delivered on 15th Jan 2013) HO Ref: c and Case ID: c

So, yet more days pass and still I am without either my passport on my doormat, or a response from UKBA. My passport was requested back in Jan 2013. Surely even UKBA (or should I refer to you as the Immigration and Visa Service now?) would realise that withholding my passport for such a length of time breaches both my rights afforded by UN Treaties (International Law) and EU Directive 2004/38/EC.

I refer to my rights as being breached: 1) The right for myself to leave any country, including "my own"... (previously sent details of this treaty)...
2) Breach of my right to travel across Europe.



In addition to this, you are also breaching the rights of my children - so this is yet another message DEMANDING YOU RETURN OUR DOCUMENTS!


In addition to this, I thought I would send yet another very useful link to yourselves... obviously, you should already be well aware of this though... http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2009/11/section/55


Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Act 2009
Section 55 - Duty regarding the welfare of children

(1)The Secretary of State must make arrangements for ensuring that—
(a)the functions mentioned in subsection (2) are discharged having regard to the need to safeguard and promote the welfare of children who are in the United Kingdom, and
(b)any services provided by another person pursuant to arrangements which are made by the Secretary of State and relate to the discharge of a function mentioned in subsection (2) are provided having regard to that need.
(2)The functions referred to in subsection (1) are—
(a)any function of the Secretary of State in relation to immigration, asylum or nationality;
(b)any function conferred by or by virtue of the Immigration Acts on an immigration officer;
(c)any general customs function of the Secretary of State;
(d)any customs function conferred on a designated customs official.
(3)A person exercising any of those functions must, in exercising the function, have regard to any guidance given to the person by the Secretary of State for the purpose of subsection (1).
(4)The Director of Border Revenue must make arrangements for ensuring that—
(a)the Director's functions are discharged having regard to the need to safeguard and promote the welfare of children who are in the United Kingdom, and
(b)any services provided by another person pursuant to arrangements made by the Director in the discharge of such a function are provided having regard to that need.
(5)A person exercising a function of the Director of Border Revenue must, in exercising the function, have regard to any guidance given to the person by the Secretary of State for the purpose of subsection (4).
(6)In this section—
“children†means persons who are under the age of 18;
“customs functionâ€, “designated customs official†and “general customs function†have the meanings given by Part 1.
(7)A reference in an enactment (other than this Act) to the Immigration Acts includes a reference to this section.
From: me....
To: me....; "Rob.Whiteman@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk" <Rob.Whiteman@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk>
Cc: "EREC@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk" <EREC@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk>; "UKBACustomerComplaints@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk" <UKBACustomerComplaints@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk>; "liverpooleuro.passportreturns@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk" <liverpooleuro.passportreturns@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk>; "Nadhim.zahawi.mp@parliament.uk" <Nadhim.zahawi.mp@parliament.uk>
Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013, 16:56
Subject: Re: Complaints - Updated List.... Including breaches of FOI Act by UKBA...

Further to my previous email today, I also highlight a relevant section of Directive 2004/38/EC.

--------------


Article 4

Right of exit

1. Without prejudice to the provisions on travel documents applicable to national border controls, all Union citizens with a valid identity card or passport and their family members who are not nationals of a Member State and who hold a valid passport shall have the right to leave the territory of a Member State to travel to another Member State.

2. No exit visa or equivalent formality may be imposed on the persons to whom paragraph 1 applies.

3. Member States shall, acting in accordance with their laws, issue to their own nationals, and renew, an identity card or passport stating their nationality.

-------------


I also highlight the fact that Chapter 10 of the EU handbook states that if a request to treat an application as a priority is not to be completed, then this must be explained in writing. Neither myself nore my wife have received a response confirming, or refusing to treat her application with priority. Therefore, please confirm the status of her application.



Yours
nnnnnnnn
Subject: Re: Complaints - Updated List.... Including breaches of FOI Act by UKBA...
From: meee....
To: Rob.Whiteman@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk; EREC@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk;
Cc: UKBACustomerComplaints@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk; liverpooleuro.passportreturns@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk; Nadhim.zahawi.mp@parliament.uk;
Date: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 1:23

name
address

Date: As Emailed

FAO: Rob Whiteman
CC: Nadhim Zahawi / Paula Scott

* MP Ref: xxxx
* Home Office Ref: (Its a long reference) - xxx - Royal Mail Package: xxxx (Delivered on 15th Jan 2013) HO Ref: xxx and Case ID: xxxxx


Dear Mr Whiteman / Euro,

Further to my previous messages of 6th April 2013, which have again been ignored (I recieved a response stating that I would receive a response the next day from Rob Whitemans email address - this has not happened?)...



I draw attention to the ruling of case C-256/11 http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/d ... cid=106180



The ruling was:


1. European Union law and, in particular, its provisions on citizenship of the Union, must be interpreted as meaning that it does not preclude a Member State from refusing to allow a third country national to reside on its territory, where that third country national wishes to reside with a member of his family who is a citizen of the Union residing in the Member State of which he has nationality, who has never exercised his right to freedom of movement, provided that such refusal does not lead, for the Union citizen concerned, to the denial of the genuine enjoyment of the substance of the rights conferred by virtue of his status as a citizen of the Union, which is a matter for the referring court to verify.



See the key wording that I have underlined for yourselves. As explained previously, I have also demonstrated to UKBA the fact that I have indeed exercised my right to freedom of movement within the EU when I worked in Finland. This therefore means that the ruling of this case cannot be relied upon to prevent my rights as an EU citizen to allow my wife to reside in the United Kingdom under Directive 2004/38/EC as the Family Member of an EEA national. Should documentation be required from myself to prove that I have been residing within the UK since my return from Finland under the Directive rules, I can provide numerous P60's, Tax Returns, P45s, Payslips, College Letters, ETC all showing that from the point that I returned from Finland, I have been qualified under one of the following categories:

- Worker
- Self Employed
- Job Seeker
- Student

With my current status in the UK standing as a worker.



Although, the following document, in response to FOI request 23660
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... 0.pdf.html

Confirms that such documentation is not required...

Yours

Mr....




@east... i was sent some info by a fellow forum member... I will send you a nice detailed letter which you can adapt which will could help your FLR(o) application... check your PM's[/b]

east579
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Post by east579 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:40 pm

@east... i was sent some info by a fellow forum member... I will send you a nice detailed letter which you can adapt which will could help your FLR(o) application... check your PM's[/b]

Thanks for the pm Wiggsy i will have a good look at it i only just noticed it and that you updated the post as i haven't been on the forum lately as i have just got back into full time employment so don't have much time.

wiggsy
Senior Member
Posts: 849
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Post by wiggsy » Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:39 pm

as i have just got back into full time employment so don't have much time.
inform them u r working now too...... Can only help :)

east579new
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Posts: 121
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Post by east579new » Thu May 23, 2013 1:43 pm

wiggsy wrote:
as i have just got back into full time employment so don't have much time.
inform them u r working now too...... Can only help :)
Wiggsy had to setup a new account lost my password, just to let you know we received a letter from my partners solicitor stating that the FLR(O) application has been refused with no right of appeal.

I don’t know what to do now i feel sick they are going to separate my child and partner.

Greenie
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Posts: 7374
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Post by Greenie » Thu May 23, 2013 1:49 pm

they can't remove your wife without making a decision to remove her, which will attract a right of appeal. I am sure your solicitor will advise you on how to proceed.

east579new
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Posts: 121
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Post by east579new » Thu May 23, 2013 2:26 pm

Greenie wrote:they can't remove your wife without making a decision to remove her, which will attract a right of appeal. I am sure your solicitor will advise you on how to proceed.
She isnt my wife greenie she is my partner will this make a differance?.
my partner is crying and upset i feel ill and am now sick with depression i cant look after my child without her i have a history of mental health problems.

Greenie
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Post by Greenie » Thu May 23, 2013 7:36 pm

It doesn't really make any difference when there is a British child involved. Why wasthe application refused?

east579new
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Posts: 121
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 11:49 am

Post by east579new » Thu May 23, 2013 7:36 pm

In the letter our solicitor sent us telling us of the refusal they also said that in the coming days weeks or months the UKBA my come to detain her ready for removal we are both really scared now.

Why the application was refused we don’t know yet i assume the reasons will be shown in the next letter our solicitor is sending us the letter we received of the solicitor this week was just to notify us of the refusal.

I think it will be for the usual reasons ie Overstaying etc

Greenie
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Post by Greenie » Thu May 23, 2013 7:47 pm

It would be highly unusual for the mother of a British child to be removed from the UK. In order to remove her they have to issued her with an immigration decision to remove which should trigger a right of appeal.

Greenie
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Post by Greenie » Thu May 23, 2013 7:48 pm


Obie
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Post by Obie » Fri May 24, 2013 1:32 am

UKBA are a real bunch of unreasonable lunatics.

Did you mention the history of mental illness amd the child on the FLR (o) application.

I concur with the previous poster, that this is not a removal case, but rather a refusal.

If they seek to remove, then there will be an appealable decision.

Try not to worty too much
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

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