Switzerland joins Schengen

[ca.funke]

If (speculation )...

Hi all,

it's not a speculation anymore, 4EUFam DOES allow entry into the EU/EEA area, but NOT as-it into Schengen.

The fact that you CAN enter Schengen simply comes from the fact that Schengen and EU/EEA are in most cases overlapping, however legally you enter the EU/EEA, not Schengen.

As a consequence, with 4EUFam (and the British equivalent), you can and may roam Schengen as you please, but you may NOT enter Switzerland.

I had an interesting exchange of emails, apparently they consider (re-)accepting Irish/British "Familymember of EU/EEA citizens" cards again, however at present they are NOT accepted.

Therefore, do NOT enter Switzerland !! Althought there are no border-checks anymore it would be illegal to do so



Rgds, Christian

[86ti]

As a consequence, with 4EUFam (and the British equivalent), you can and may roam Schengen as you please, but you may NOT enter Switzerland.

I suppose you wanted to say: you can roam the whole of the EEA (which "just so" happens to overlap with most of the Schengen area) but not Switzerland because it is not EEA. Actually, Schengen appears to be totally irrelevant for family members with EEA residence permits anyway. The Schengen border code for instance just refers to the Directive in this case.

EDIT: this means that a EEA residence permits does not substitute for a Schengen visa but rather for an imaginary EEA visa. Also the 3 months per half year a la Schengen do not apply. Just three months. One day outside and you can start over again but still less than 6 month per year because otherwise you would be considered resident and would need an appropriate permit. I have been told (Austrian forum!) that this is would be due to historical reason

[ca.funke]

I suppose you wanted to say: you can roam the whole of the EEA (which "just so" happens to overlap with most of the Schengen area) but not Switzerland because it is not EEA.

Yep - that's what I wanted to say - I was busy with that crap for quite a while today, so sorry for my lapse...

With 4EUFam you may (and in many cases can) indeed enter all of the EEA. De-facto you can also enter the Vatican, SanMarino and Monaco, although I'm not sure about the legal situation in these cases?

NB: EEA includes Liechtenstein (which is currently not Schengen), so you can (legally) get damn close to Switzerland from every side, you just have to stop yourself from crossing the line...

This is one of the Swiss/FL crossings, actually a place where my wife and me crossed ourselves once. (The pic is not from me. It was taken from FL towards CH. The motorbike is already in non-EEA-Swiss territory and as such off limits for 4EUFam, while the foto could be taken legally with 4EUFam.)

As you can see the crossing is heavily guarded and fortified...

Maybe 4EUFam-folks should plan their next holidays is FL: Should your partner annoy you, just go to the next pub towards the south, and finished...

...I really think this isn't funny, actually.

[ca.funke]

I hope I'm not writing a summary of what everybody is aware of already - just drawing some conclusions while waiting/hoping for a meaningful answer from the Swiss / the EU.

(Of course that'll take 4ever...)

In the meantime:

• EU/EEA family-member-residence-permits legally allow entry into all of the EU/EEA through 2004/38/EC
  • conditions like travelling together are not the point now...
• This includes the UK/Eire, who both choose to illegally ignore/misinterpret these rules
• Switzerland (CH), not being EU nor EEA, is not bound by 2004/38/EC
  • Hence CH MAY and currently DOES NOT accept UK/Eire residence permits for entry
  • Which makes sense, as corresponding CH-permits are not valid in UK/Eire
  • But does not make sense, as a group of people may now enter all of Schengen - except CH, which is odd
• The most logical solution would be:
  • UK/Eire acknowledge their legal obligations from 2004/38/EC AND
  • enter a bilateral agreement with CH, mutually accepting their family-member permits for short-term visits OR
  • fully enter Schengen, for all I care with the exceptional right to systematically check papers on entry
• Either of this would yield a logically comprehensive situation
  • which in itself is a guarantee that it won't happen

[86ti]

• Hence CH MAY and currently DOES NOT accept UK/Eire residence permits for entry
• Which makes sense, as corresponding CH-permits are not valid in UK/Eire

The Swiss didn't have a problem with that before they joined Schengen and acceptance would not seem to cause any incompatibilities.

• But does not make sense, as a group of people may now enter all of Schengen - except CH, which is odd

Obviously a member state can choose to restrict its own territory from a Schengen visa. I don't know on which grounds that is possible but we have some reports here that recently issued Schengen type C visas from France (which also appears to reject UK/Eire residence permits) excluded Estonia.

[ca.funke]

...France (which also appears to reject UK/Eire residence permits)...

That would be illegal, however my wife and me successfully entered France with 4EUFam on a ferry from Rosslare to Cherbourg. No questions, no nothing, just "bon voyage"...

...but we have some reports here that recently issued Schengen type C visas from France (...) excluded Estonia...

WOW! I looked around for a while, can't find it. Can you point me to that??

[86ti]

...but we have some reports here that recently issued Schengen type C visas from France (...) excluded Estonia...

WOW! I looked around for a while, can't find it. Can you point me to that??

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=35785

[ca.funke]

Hi all,

I just read the complete thread (again), and happened to see the following in the Decision of the EEA Joint Committee

(...) the EEA Joint Committee (...) HAS DECIDED AS FOLLOWS:

Article 1

(...)Directive 2004/38/EC (...) shall, for the purposes of the Agreement, be read with the following adaptations:
(...)
(c) The words "Union citizen(s)" shall be replaced by the words "national(s) of EC Member States and EFTA States".
(...)

As EFTA includes Switzerland, does that mean that Irish/British family-member cards are actually valid in CH, and no-one happens to know??

If so I wonder why the EEA Committee may decide something for the EFTA (which includes CH), if CH is not represented in the EEA?

Or (more likely) do I have some logical twist here?

[86ti]

The EEA Joint Commitee appears to include all EEA and all EFTA states. Their recent annual report mentions the Directive 2004/38/EC in point 53.

[flyboy]

Hi all,

I just read the complete thread (again), and happened to see the following in the Decision of the EEA Joint Committee

(...) the EEA Joint Committee (...) HAS DECIDED AS FOLLOWS:

Article 1

(...)Directive 2004/38/EC (...) shall, for the purposes of the Agreement, be read with the following adaptations:
(...)
(c) The words "Union citizen(s)" shall be replaced by the words "national(s) of EC Member States and EFTA States".
(...)

As EFTA includes Switzerland, does that mean that Irish/British family-member cards are actually valid in CH, and no-one happens to know??

If so I wonder why the EEA Committee may decide something for the EFTA (which includes CH), if CH is not represented in the EEA?

Or (more likely) do I have some logical twist here?

This is the EEA committee, which does not include CH, and when mentioning it applies to nationals of EC member states and EFTA states , logically it would mean the EFTA members belonging to the EEA. For directive 2004/38 to be applicable in CH, the free movement agreement between EU and CH will have to be modified. And considering some of the provisions provided in the directive some of the anti EU / foreigner parties in CH will most probably collect enough signatures to force a referendum on the issue before it can take effect in CH.

From the updated version of the schengen borders code, you'll see that family members of CH nationals does not benefit from the directive 2004/38 even if they hold valid residence permits/cards issued by an EU/EEA state and that family members of EU/EEA nationals holding a valid CH permit will need a visa to visit those EU countries which are not part of schengen.

The first link is the original schengen border code handbook and take a look at point 3.1 and then have a look at the 2nd link the updated version and see how it has been updated taking into consideration that the directive does not apply to CH.

http://register.consilium.europa.eu/pdf ... 0.en06.pdf

http://register.consilium.europa.eu/pdf ... 3.en08.pdf

[flyboy]

The EEA Joint Commitee appears to include all EEA and all EFTA states. Their recent annual report mentions the Directive 2004/38/EC in point 53.

From the link you provided the EEA joint comittee is made up as follow:


"The Joint Committee, which generally meets once a month, is made up of ambassadors of the EEA EFTA States, representatives from the European Commission and EU Member States."

CH is an EFTA state, not an EEA EFTA state.

[ca.funke]

Thanks a lot for that flyboy

So the situation remains legal, but illogical. (>>see here<< and >>here<<)

Imagine the following imaginary conversation in Dublin or London:

Q: What will you do this weekend?
A: Today I'll apply for my Schengen-Visa which I hope to get in 2 weeks, and tomorrow I'll fly to Berlin.

--> Makes sense? NO?! Thought so

*sigh*

[86ti]

For directive 2004/38 to be applicable in CH, the free movement agreement between EU and CH will have to be modified. And considering some of the provisions provided in the directive some of the anti EU / foreigner parties in CH will most probably collect enough signatures to force a referendum on the issue before it can take effect in CH.

So what part from the directive is not also in the free movement agreement?

The Swiss had no problem accepting UK/Irish family permits before joining Schengen. You point out that the "border code" (edit: actually you linked to the Schengen handbook not the Schengen border code.) has been modified recently with respect to the FPs and Switzerland. But it doesn't make any sense to me as I cannot see why the this modification was necessary.

[86ti]

Ok, maybe I understand now. Schengen replaced everything in Switzerland that was visa related. As the Schengen border code only referes to the directive as exception and the directive is not applicable in Switzerland there is no legal basis anymore. The only option seems to be to modify the free movement agreement as flyboy pointed out. Does that sound right?

[fysicus]

there is definitely a second option: UK and Ireland to implement Schengen fully as well!

Generally speaking: all UK governments in the last 30 years or so were keen to optout from any EU initiative that was beneficial to the man in the street: Schengen, the euro, workers' rights, to name a few big ones.
And now, surprise, surprise, nobody in UK likes the EU because it doesn't bring them any advantage!

[ca.funke]

...the euro...

That's an especially funny topic:

• When the € was first introduced it went down against the US$ and also against the £.
• In hindsight this would have been a great time to adopt the €, as yee would have gotten lots of €s for your £s BUT
• British logic: "The € is so weak, why should we introduce it...?"
• Now that the € is strong yee would get little €s for your £s, so that's a reason in itself NOT to introduce it now.
• Should the £ ever go up again, we're back to the first argument.

It's a vicious circle. Considering

...all UK governments in the last 30 years or so were keen to optout from any EU initiative that was beneficial to the man in the street: Schengen, the euro, workers' rights, to name a few big ones...

• Integration, in the form of the aspects you mentioned:
  • Euro
  • Schengen and
  • other things
• Automatically leads to helping each other, even if that's not directly visible:
  • Imagine the € hadn't been introduced
  • Some imaginary domestic reason in country X would have sent X-currency into freefall: Big Problem
  • Since we have the Euro, such a problem would have sent the € down a few cents, the affected country wouldn't have suffered as badly overall.
• In the long-run such negative occurrences happen everywhere
  • Thus the "exported problems" are evenly distributed and equally carried...
  • Problem's peaks are not as bad as they could be
  • No-one in the community suffers sustainable damage
  • Everyone gains a lot
• Similar to the €, 2004/38/EC allows compensating for supply and demand in workers, lowering overall unemployment
• Schengen is a matter of trust
  • NOT systematically checking at borders
  • While having a centralised database
  • IMPROVES not IMPAIRS overall security.
• etc...

Considering this, I'd say it's time for a very basic question:

DOES Britain, or does it NOT, want to remain in the EU, while not wanting to involve itself in the major milestones?

I think the UK should leave the EU - as Switzerland shows this is not by definition a bad thing. However, my assessment for GB would be... different

[flyboy]

For directive 2004/38 to be applicable in CH, the free movement agreement between EU and CH will have to be modified. And considering some of the provisions provided in the directive some of the anti EU / foreigner parties in CH will most probably collect enough signatures to force a referendum on the issue before it can take effect in CH.

So what part from the directive is not also in the free movement agreement?

The Swiss had no problem accepting UK/Irish family permits before joining Schengen. You point out that the "border code" (edit: actually you linked to the Schengen handbook not the Schengen border code.) has been modified recently with respect to the FPs and Switzerland. But it doesn't make any sense to me as I cannot see why the this modification was necessary.

Quite a few things aren't in the free movement agreement between the EU and CH, the most obvious being the replacement of a valid family members EU/EEA residence card instead of a visa, as well as being able to prove one's family relationship at the border.
A few other things such as facilitating entrance to extended family members, the retention of rights of family members in certain cases, as well as the automatic right to permanent residence after 5 years (considering at the moment the waiting time for permanent residence is 10 years for non EU nationals - exception US and Canada - as well as for the new EU members which joined in 2004 and 2007 which have to wait 10 years too) .
And the simplified procedure of registering. EU citizens still have to apply for a residency permit as well as their family members - registration certificates(issued same day) and cards for EU nationals and family members don't exist.
Residency in CH for non EU family members arriving directly from outside the EU/EEA (no previous residence in the EU/EEA) is assessed under swiss law, so the Metock ruling as no effect on that in CH either.

[ca.funke]

Leaves the funny case of Andorra... UNREAL...

I just happened to find this website:
http://www.mae.ad/angles/htmls/menu/dni.html

Scroll to the end to find this:

Andorra requires visas from NO-ONE. However, as you must cross either Spain or France in order to get to Andorra, nationals from outside the Schengen zone should find out if they need a visa to enter and exit countries in the Schengen zone.

While the EU takes the impractical stance that a multi-entry is needed to visit Andorra, Andorra itself has the most practical approach of them all: As they don't require visas from anyone, they need to offer no visa-services at all.

The fact that ppl have to cross through Spain or France automatically protects Andora. Still, if Andorra doesn't like someone to stay they can kick them out.

That's the coolest and most practical regulation ever, except that they cannot autonomously decide on who may visit. Access to their own country is totally out of their control, which I guess is something that they happily ignore.

[magsi23]

Switzerland joins Schengen

http://www.bfm.admin.ch/bfm/en/home/the ... reise.html

Switzerland is now a part of Schengen, third country nationals with residence permits of Ireland and the U.K will now have to apply for visas for entry into Switzerland...unfortunately, this is a step backward for EEA and Stamp4EU fam residence card holders of U.K and Ireland.

Wow....this is a good news, Yes its good Switzerland don't accept Residence card as family from UK and Ireland as visa-free....good to know

Why is this such a good news to you?

[charles4u]

Switzerland joins Schengen

http://www.bfm.admin.ch/bfm/en/home/the ... reise.html

Switzerland is now a part of Schengen, third country nationals with residence permits of Ireland and the U.K will now have to apply for visas for entry into Switzerland...unfortunately, this is a step backward for EEA and Stamp4EU fam residence card holders of U.K and Ireland.

Wow....this is a good news, Yes its good Switzerland don't accept Residence card as family from UK and Ireland as visa-free....good to know

Why is this such a good news to you?

Cus UK and Ireland dont accept other EU family residence card as visa-free and I am happy if other EU countries dont accept theirs too.

[ca.funke]

Cus UK and Ireland dont accept other EU family residence card as visa-free and I am happy if other EU countries dont accept theirs too.

I'd be happy too, if this would negatively affect those taking such decisions.

However, those taking such decisions are not even remotely aware of the exact consequences. (In this case the Swiss government and those who agreed on the Schengen-inclusion on the EU-side)

As a summary, this is idiotic and adding to the mess.

It would be nice if all responsible politicians would be allowed to cross borders on Tuesdays and Saturdays ONLY, until the situation is at least logically comprehensive (which would be equally idiotic and severely impeding their lives). Obviously this is not going to happen, and thus nothing is going to happen

[charles4u]

I'd be happy too, if this would negatively affect those taking such decisions.

However, those taking such decisions are not even remotely aware of the exact consequences. (In this case the Swiss government and those who agreed on the Schengen-inclusion on the EU-side)

As a summary, this is idiotic and adding to the mess.

It would be nice if all responsible politicians would be allowed to cross borders on Tuesdays and Saturdays ONLY, until the situation is at least logically comprehensive (which would be equally idiotic and severely impeding their lives). Obviously this is not going to happen, and thus nothing is going to happen

Do you know I saw somewhere saying family members of Romania and Bulgaria can accompany there EU spouse without visa to Switzerland...but not family members of UK and Ireland.

All this is becoming politics...

[caribbeangeorge]

Dear Forum,

I just found this threat, here my my reply as Swiss Citizen

Our Government is confused, they are eager to make no mistake and over shoot a bit - you don't believe, well here is my story.

I am living abroad in the Caribbean, married happily to a Russian Women, we have one son and our daughter has to be manufactured yet, we are working on it...

How happy I was when the news coming up Swiss will join Schengen in 2005! then 2006, then 2007, then finally December 2008

This will make our life so much easier - so I thought. Traveling with my wife anywhere to a country having a dog with more then two flies on it requires a visa. The Russian passport, the passport with the plague - nobody wants to touch it - YAK

Living on a small little island you don't have all the embassies of the world close by, so you need first a visa to be able to apply for a visa. I spend year by year more then 3000.00 just for passport shipping, crazy!!

But all this will be history as our glorious Government decided to join Schengen - BRAVO!

So I thought...

As my wife still had a valid 2 year Swiss visa, the Swiss embassy could first could not issue a new Swiss-Schengen visa - the old one first had to expire. OK so we waited another 6 month, meanwhile sending her passport happily back and forth with Paris to get a French Schengen visa she need for transit. Issued exactly by itinerary, not a day more!

As the expiration day arrive, her passport will expire in December 09, makes no sense to apply for her the new Swiss Schengen visa, as it will be only valid a short Period - her US visa however will be valid together with the new passport, how cute and thoughtful...

So, after 3 month we have her new passport - but now MY SWISS embassy want Euro 60.00 from us - Ehm, sorry, it's my wife...
Even after proof her that we never had to pay the French and showing her the tax regulation that Spouses of Swiss or EU citizen don't need to pay this fee - we are still "negotiating" this one with the embassy (keep in mind that this "free" visa cost me USD 150.00 shipping each way, also $ 300.00 in total)

Then the embassy figured out that Switzerland is not in charge anymore for the visa as first entry is ether France (Paris) or Holland as there is no direct flight from here. Even as I told them this are only transit and not main travel destinations - It felt on deaf ears. So no long term visa as in the past, no multiple entry as in the past, each time we will have to send the passport again and again, but hey, it's FREE .... yeah, right, did I mention the shipping?

Meanwhile, plans changed and I'll close my company here as there are heavily talking of independence so this place will go drain, a real pity.

Again contacting the embassy as now we want return to Switzerland and live there, happily ever after.

So I being told, I first have to apply for my wife and mother of my son for residence allowance (!! -@#**@ allowance!!!!!), who are we just letting everybody cross our borders.

I have to send 4 pictures, a translated and notarized marriage certificate (even though the marriage is registered in Switzerland (another battle) and my wife is registered in SwissStar, the Swiss Census database - THEY KNOW ABOUT IT, in all glorious details ), two Schengen Visa application, CHF 400.00 for fees, copies of my passport, her passport, new police record from country of origin (Moscow, you may know how difficult it is to get one if you are abroad), translated and notarized in English or any official Swiss language (D/I/F), though they have on on file when we registered our marriage and hey, we haven't burglarized any home or robbed a bank lately)

This application has to be sent to the embassy, they will forward it to Bern to the central register, they then will forward it to the state (canton) foreign police and each place has to give their approval, so the whole process should be done in less then 6 month, or eight, or so... who knows?



Did I mention that about 3 0/00, thats 3 out of 1000 marriages are closed for economic benefit, also 997 marriages are made out of love and hope for a future together. OK, some fail- but proven is that the divorce rate of bi-national couples are smaller then in national marriages.

Before 1992 she would have received the Swiss passport the same day, but now she has to wait 5 years (if we live in Switzerland) or 7 years if we live foreign until she will receive this holy red paper.

997 marriages going trough all this nonsense of paper work for 3 absusive couples, the child death rate is higher and we have no problem with it.

I suggested to the Swiss goverment follows:
Automatic Swiss passport regardless of time spend together after the second child, the first one could be an accident, two rather not. Even if two children are produced for economic benefit, at last two new Swiss citizen are made as we are a dying race anyway!
No official response received since.

Fact is, my wife is rather a proud Russian, she wouldn't take the Swiss passport if there aren't this travel restrictions imposed to her. And heavy financial burden for our small family.

Due the recent change in US visa with the personal appointment, it means for me two people return ticked plus child 20%, hotel accommodation due odd flight times, sending passports back and forth equals to USD 1800.00

or USD 90.00 per year and person!

At least, I will have 10 years no hassle!

Why Schengen could not introduce a 5 or 10 years visa. What the heck with this 4 days or 2 week visas???


Now, I just received news that with a recent change in visa regulations one digital pictures and fingerprints have to be taken in order for a Schengen visa.

A friend of us, from Kazakhstan just is going trough this. For her visa long de sejour our French consulate is not in duty anymore, the closest French embassy is the one in Dominican Republic, she flew there - being told all what she has to do is leaving the prints and she can go home, the application is previously filed already.

Meanwhile she spends 20 DAYS in an expensive Hotel (plus USD 800 for tickets), given her day by day new instructions whats next (come back in two days, the visa will be ready, the files are lost, the files are found but are in the wrong embassy and she has to produce the whole paperwork from scratch again - including fingerprints, meanwhile the 3rd time.

I don't know, ever wonder why people join Al Quida, start to experiment at home with explosives? We are more then willing to fulfill our obligations, but they have to make sense.

With all due respect, it is going out of hand. If this procedure has to be made for every short term Schengen visa, it's absurd.

Same for the parents of my wife, two people have to fly 2x 4hours from Novosibirsk to Moscow, spend there several days with embassies to leave fingerprints for a two week holiday in Switzerland?

They are pensioners, living on small income of several 100 dollars (rubels)
the flight to Moscow is rather a luxury thing, not to mention Moscow hotels, I consider Moscow the most expensive place on earth!

So, back to the theme, the Swiss government/politicians/embassies are simply over stressed to make everything right.

Don't forget that Serbia kept Switzerland Schengen on hold for one year until THEY checked that Switzerland is ready for Schengen - this was a joke!

The question is rather, is Serbia, Croatia, Romania, Bulgaria ready for the EU, or has the EU being forced to take these countries in to make sure they will not fall back to Soviet?

Papa Bush told Sovjet Russia, the NATO borders will remain the same, now they want move the border to to Georgia and Ukraine.

It's all nested together, all politricks

Please bear with my government, it's not easy for us (them)

Thanks for your attention

Bye

George

[ca.funke]

Hi caribbeangeorge,

thanks for that interesting read. The Schengen-system (but others too) is really very faulty.

From what I heard so far the US-visit is rather easy, straightforward and practical, maybe you can say something on that?

Here some thoughts:

What the heck with this 4 days or 2 week visas???

My usual plea: Visas are usually designed to keep unwanted people out and/or controlled. However, EU-family-members MAY enter and move into the EU + EEA +Switzerland anyway, so why not just confirm this fact with a long-term-visa? What harm could they do, and what´s the purpose of a 5-day-visa, in this case? (If traveling together, they would be allowed to stay longer and/or stay indefinetely. So this is only causing hassle with no benefit to anyone at all)

As handled at present, it encourages people to move into Schengen, even if they usually would prefer to live elsewhere.

Totally wrong incentives are set.

My own case: After having had too much trouble (you wouldn´t believe it) we moved from Ireland (not Schengen) to Switzerland (Schengen). If my wife would have received a 5yr multiple-entry Schengen Visa, we might still live in Ireland. How much sense does that make?


One question for you, caribbeangeorge:

Don't forget that Serbia kept Switzerland Schengen on hold for one year until THEY checked that Switzerland is ready for Schengen - this was a joke!

What does Serbia have to do with it? They are not EU and not Schengen...

[JA13I]

with more then two flies on it requires a visa.

I think you meant fleas.

Interesting read! Verbose, but in a good way! Welcome to the world of international immigration mayhem.