Travel with EU Citizen,residence & work-Directive 2004/3

mym · Post by **mym** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:15 pm

As the lovely Amanda said upthread, I think there is a test case here that could be taken to court.

But yes, it's true they can require a visa (unless she has an italian residence card), but it is "issued free of charge as soon as possible and on the basis of an accelerated procedure" and they cannot ask for anything other than your passports and proof of family relationship (ie wedding certificate).

Prawo · Post by **Prawo** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:50 pm

Richard66 wrote:The British Solvit replied to my query on the same subject in record time (sent Friday at 8pm, reply on Monday morning at 9am: I doubt they even had time to read my letter) saying I can only go to the UK with my wife with a family permit if I am to go there to work, to be employed or to be self-employed. In all other cases they say I need a visa. To me it seems incredible that to return to the UK I need a family permit for my wife, but to go for a short visa I need a visa for her.

Solvit UK is completely wrong.
An Italian EU permit is a card that is issued according to art. 10 of Directive 2004/38/EC and consequently exempts from the visa requirement (art. 5 par. 2).

Do me a favour and confront Solvit with this information and ask them to review their answer.

Where can you complain about them?

Richard66 · Post by **Richard66** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:08 pm

I know that: to me it seems suspiciously that the answer is the one that is to the UK's taste.

I have an e-mail from the Citizen's Signpost Service that says that all we need is a marriage certificate and the Italian Residence card. They go as far as naming it as "Permesso di Soggiorno" and this is what my wife has.

I am also in touch with the Italian Solvit, but they have not yet replied.

I did reply to Solvit Uk, but I'll write again tomorrow citing the pertinent UK regulations, that is, Regulation 9 and Regulation 13.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:28 am

I reread the Surinder Singh decision http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2007/04 ... ional-law/

In the Singh ruling, the ECJ carefully says

A national of a Member State might be deterred from leaving his country of origin in order to pursue an activity as an employed or self-employed person in the territory of another Member State if, on returning to the Member State of which he is a national in order to pursue an activity there as an employed or self-employed person, his conditions were not at least equivalent to those which he would enjoy under Community law in the territory of another Member State. He would in particular be deterred from so doing if his spouse and children were not also permitted to enter and reside in the territory of that State under conditions at least equivalent to those granted by Community law in the territory of another Member State.

It looks, absent more details of the application and why it was rejected, that the UK may be taking a hard line on this and saying that Singh only applies when the couple is returning to the UK to work, study or look for work.

It would be very interesting if this clause could be interpreted to allow the UK government to not issue short non-working visit EEA family permits to spouses of UK citizens who resided in other member states. They could instead force the application to be under UK law and then reject it more easily.

This interpretation is not mentioned in the UKvisas DSP for 21.4.8 Surinder Singh cases

This should also be easy to accommodate around. As long as the couple intends to work or study or look for work in the UK, they would be covered by the Singh.

Richard66 · Post by **Richard66** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:13 am

But we're no longer talking of the Surinder Singh case: we're talking of the consequences of the Surinder Singh ruling as implemented by the Uk Immigration Regulations (EEA) 1003/2006. It is regualtion 9 which is the important one:

Family members of United Kingdom nationals
9. â€”(1) If the conditions in paragraph (2) are satisfied, these Regulations apply to a person who is the family member of a United Kingdom national as if the United Kingdom national were an EEA national.

(2) The conditions are thatâ€”

(a) the United Kingdom national is residing in an EEA State as a worker or self-employed person or was so residing before returning to the United Kingdom; and

(b) if the family member of the United Kingdom national is his spouse or civil partner, the parties are living together in the EEA State or had entered into the marriage or civil partnership and were living together in that State before the United Kingdom national returned to the United Kingdom.

(3) Where these Regulations apply to the family member of a United Kingdom national the United Kingdom national shall be treated as holding a valid passport issued by an EEA State for the purpose of the application of regulation 13 to that family member.

No mention to work here.

Again Regulation 13:

Initial right of residence
13. â€”(1) An EEA national is entitled to reside in the United Kingdom for a period not exceeding three months beginning on the date on which he is admitted to the United Kingdom provided that he holds a valid national identity card or passport issued by an EEA State.

(2) A family member of an EEA national residing in the United Kingdom under paragraph (1) who is not himself an EEA national is entitled to reside in the United Kingdom provided that he holds a valid passport.

(3) Butâ€”

(a) this regulation is subject to regulation 19(3)(b); and

(b) an EEA national or his family member who becomes an unreasonable burden on the social assistance system of the United Kingdom shall cease to have the right to reside under this regulation.

Regulation 11 also states that NO FAMILY PERMIT OR VISA IS REQUIRED:

Right of admission to the United Kingdom
11. â€”(1) An EEA national must be admitted to the United Kingdom if he produces on arrival a valid national identity card or passport issued by an EEA State.

(2) A person who is not an EEA national must be admitted to the United Kingdom if he is a family member of an EEA national, a family member who has retained the right of residence or a person with a permanent right of residence under regulation 15 and produces on arrivalâ€”

(a) a valid passport; and

(b) an EEA family permit, a residence card or a permanent residence card.

(3) An immigration officer may not place a stamp in the passport of a person admitted to the United Kingdom under this regulation who is not an EEA national if the person produces a residence card or permanent residence card.

(4) Before an immigration officer refuses admission to the United Kingdom to a person under this regulation because the person does not produce on arrival a document mentioned in paragraph (1) or (2), the immigration officer must give the person every reasonable opportunity to obtain the document or have it brought to him within a reasonable period of time or to prove by other means that he isâ€”

(a) an EEA national;

(b) a family member of an EEA national with a right to accompany that national or join him in the United Kingdom; or

(c) a family member who has retained the right of residence or a person with a permanent right of residence under regulation 15.

(5) But this regulation is subject to regulations 19(1) and (2).

Add to this CE Directive 2004/38 that states that the residence card issued by ANY EEA State is valid en lieu of a visa for short-term visits.

The UK authorities don'tr have a leg to stand on: they are in violation of their own regulations, besides treating Directive 2004/38 with utter contempt.

mym · Post by **mym** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:48 am

Richard66 wrote:The UK authorities don'tr have a leg to stand on: they are in violation of their own regulations, besides treating Directive 2004/38 with utter contempt.

Absolutely so Richard. Keep going.

I'll buy you both a pint at the Wenlock Arms when you get here!

Richard66 · Post by **Richard66** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:34 pm

What the British Embassy in Rome is trying to do is to convince me my wife must apply for a visa, which they can then easily refuse. This seems to be the view they talked the British Solvit service into believing. I have written once again to the Solvit in the UK, quoting all relevant UK regulations, which, of course, contradict everything they wrote me, and asked them to review the answer they sent me. I'd have been ashamed of myself to have written such gup if I were in Solvit's employment.

The truth is, no one from UK Visas to the dog standing outside know what he's talking about. I was really surprised that the British embassy in Rome seemed in total ignorance of visa and family permit procedures when they are responsible for the issue of visas and family permits.

freshprince · Post by **freshprince** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:27 pm

@Richard 66

SolvitUK from personal experience does not represent the EU in practice as a neutral body but rather acts as an unofficial ECO for UK Immigration,the lady who holds sway over there will recite the UK Immigration rules with all the reverence of a prophet who just came down the mountain with the famed stone tablets,she will do so with that patented British politeness and a cheeriness that is designed to make you look like a fool for quoting relevant EU regulations.If you stress it she will tell you that UK Immigration rules somewhat superceed those of the EU and pretend not to understand what you are talking about.

She will offer you forms and other non essential stuff that is designed to waste your time and leave you bereft of any hope at all,I sympathise with the pregnant lady in question but the fact is there is an unofficial policy by the UK to pretend not to recognise residence cards issued Under Article 10 of the Directive ,this has been infringed upon so many times by the UK that the European Commision has started the infringment proceedings against the UK and also Malta and Luxembourg for not correctly transposing the Directive into law so hopefully that "residence card issued by any EU member state" goof will be recitified clearly.

http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAct ... anguage=en

They(Solvit UK) will tell you to apply for the EEA family permits which infact are visas which negate the Visa Exemption purposes of the heretofore mentioned residence cards,its unfair,probably illegal but sadly its the reality.Do send a petition to the European Commision describing exactly how your rights have been infringed upon and add your voices to the many others who have suffered similar fates to yours,the groundswell is reaching critical mass anyway.

Best of luck.

PS:IF I didnt state it clearly enough SOLVITUK are fifth columnists who are infact working for UK Immigration,expect NO HELP from there,you are better off calling the Home Office.

Prawo · Post by **Prawo** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:09 pm

Don't be surprised.
EU member states apparently do not like their citizens to have any rights.

It's not only the UK authorities that are a pain in the mule.

Yesterday and today I had to make four phone calls to a German embassy in order to have them let in the husband of a Dutch citizen. They insisted he should do the language test before he could submit an application for family reunification. A requirement that exists since a few days in Germany, but not for family members of EU nationals.

sakura · Post by **sakura** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:26 pm

Prawo wrote:Don't be surprised.
EU member states apparently do not like their citizens to have any rights.

It's not only the UK authorities that are a pain in the mule.

Yesterday and today I had to make four phone calls to a German embassy in order to have them let in the husband of a Dutch citizen. They insisted he should do the language test before he could submit an application for family reunification. A requirement that exists since a few days in Germany, but not for family members of EU nationals.

There's a language requirement for Germany now? I could have sworn I was only reading about it a month ago as a possibility!?!

Prawo · Post by **Prawo** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:47 pm

Unfortunately they took the bad example from The Netherlands.
See this flyer in German.

To be clear: it's NOT for family members of EU nationals.

sakura · Post by **sakura** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:19 pm

Prawo wrote:Unfortunately they took the bad example from The Netherlands.
See this flyer in German.

To be clear: it's NOT for family members of EU nationals.

Thanks for that!

Is that a picture of Barak Obama on the left side of page 1?

Now...I remember being vehemently against this because it required only a select number of nationals to take the test. I think it was only visa nationals, but nationals of countries like Japan, the USA or Australia did not need to take the test. Is this still the case (I can't see any mention of this on the link)?

ciaramc · Post by **ciaramc** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:07 pm

It really is beyond me how UK embassy can not inform there citizen of there rights my friend...was planning on travelling to the UK earyÃ¹ly in her pregnancy in order to give birth there but when she was told they would not issue him with a visa she decided to have the baby here!

She is now trying to get everything together in order to apply for a family permit , I have informed her of her right to travel with her husband to the UK with his Italian residence card and there wedding certificate! Yes they married here in Italy!

Also when she applied was applying for the visa she gave all eveidence of there relationship i.e Marriage certificate, contract for the rent of there apartment for the last 3 years a letter from here mother inviting her husband to the UK and also substancial photos of the past 3 years together...visa stamps from Morocco! And this was just to get a visa!

The british embassy in Rome are terrible they do not advise there citizen or help them with anything! You can't even get inside they just refer you to the agency that deals with visas

And just to include in this she also now has to pay 150 euros I think its in about that much to register the birth of her child abroad ! So not only are they not giving here family a visa they are also making money of her...as she now has to register a birth abroad!

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:34 am

sakura wrote:Now...I remember being vehemently against this because it required only a select number of nationals to take the test. I think it was only visa nationals, but nationals of countries like Japan, the USA or Australia did not need to take the test. Is this still the case (I can't see any mention of this on the link)?

They are exempting people from the US, Canada, Israel, Japan, Aus, NZ, and South Korea. You also do not have to do it if you have a university degree or you "because of other reasons have less requirement for integration". But they definitely say that family of EU citizens do not need to do it.

Richard66 · Post by **Richard66** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:28 am

I'm surprised your friend gave in to the British Embassy and is applying for this phoney family permit or visa or whatever they decide to call it. The Italian residence card is valid en lieu of a short stay visa: period. This is clear in the EU directive and, if you look properly, it is also written in the UK Immigration Regulations (EEA) 1003/2006. Take a look at regulation 11. Relevant passages in bold face:

Right of admission to the United Kingdom
11.â€”(1) An EEA national must be admitted to the United Kingdom if he produces on arrival a
valid national identity card or passport issued by an EEA State.
(2) A person who is not an EEA national must be admitted to the United Kingdom if he is a
family member of an EEA national, a family member who has retained the right of residence or a
person with a permanent right of residence under regulation 15 and produces on arrivalâ€”
(a) a valid passport; and
(b) an EEA family permit, a residence card or a permanent residence card.
(3) An immigration officer may not place a stamp in the passport of a person admitted to the
United Kingdom under this regulation who is not an EEA national if the person produces a
residence card or permanent residence card.
(4) Before an immigration officer refuses admission to the United Kingdom to a person under
this regulation because the person does not produce on arrival a document mentioned in paragraph
(1) or (2), the immigration officer must give the person every reasonable opportunity to obtain the
document or have it brought to him within a reasonable period of time or to prove by other means
that he isâ€”
(a) an EEA national;
(b) a family member of an EEA national with a right to accompany that national or join him
in the United Kingdom; or
(c) a family member who has retained the right of residence or a person with a permanent
right of residence under regulation 15.
(5) But this regulation is subject to regulations 19(1) and (2).
(a) OJ No. L 257, 19.10.68, p. 2 (OJ/SE 1st series 1968, vol II, p. 475

The UK is now facing infringement charges at the European Court of Justice because of their partial implementation of the directive.

As you know, I am now fighting a battle with the Rome Embassy, but I REFUSE in no uncertain terms to put up with their nonsense. I have written two letters of protest to the vice-consul (registered post: that way they can't say I never sent it) I send them copies by fax, I have contacted both the Italian and the British Solvit (the british one gave me a dodgy answer, so I protested, so now they ignore me), I wrote to the Citizens' Signpost Service, which confirmed my right to go to the UK only with my wife's Italian residence card (and they called it Permesso di soggiorno!). Yesterday I wrote to the vice-president of the European Commission, Franco Frattini, (who is responsible for bringing the UK to book at the European Court) by fax and today I sent him the same letter by registered post. I shall also call later on today. Why don't you and your friend also write him? I can give you contact details (they are available on the Internet). I am also planning to write to both the British and the Italian press on this. I am NOT going to be treated as a second-class citizen by my own government and nor should anyone else who is facing a similar problem.

Prawo · Post by **Prawo** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:31 pm

For your information, my Iranian parents in law, living in Sweden on the basis of Directive 2004/38/EC were admitted to the UK without a visa. After a 2 hour discussion.

Their passports were wrongfully stamped, but they were in.

I did not bother to contact one of their embassies.

Richard66 · Post by **Richard66** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:15 pm

Yes, Prawo, but are you a British national? It might mean a 4 hour discussion...

Anyway, I've managed to get hold of the telephone number of the person responsible for visa problems at the European Commision.

Prawo · Post by **Prawo** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:31 pm

Richard66 wrote:Yes, Prawo, but are you a British national? It might mean a 4 hour discussion...

Anyway, I've managed to get hold of the telephone number of the person responsible for visa problems at the European Commision.

No, I'm Dutch.

Richard66 · Post by **Richard66** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:42 pm

You see, I'm English. On top of the fuss because my wife doesn't have a visa, I'd have to prove at the port of entry that I've been exercising treaty rights since the year dot. I was last in the UK in September 2002 (I left on 11 September, to be exact

), but they don't know that.

Prawo · Post by **Prawo** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:06 am

I do not think you have to prove anything but your marriage, with an original certificate.

Your wife has to prove she has an Italian EU residence card for staying with you as her husband. If it is only in Italian, preparing a translation could be wise.

Upon arrival I cited art. 5, 6 and 10 of Directive 2004/38/EC (you better take a copy) and pointed out my parents in law had
1) to stand in the line for non EU nationals
2) a Swedish residence card issued according to art. 10 (which was partly true as one of them forgot to take this card)
3) this card entitles to visa free travel since 30 April 2006

Before we had a problem boarding the Ryan Air plane and i requested to speak personally on the phone with their visa expert. He knows about this and would update their system. The same goes for KLM, they updated their system because of a similar problem in Warsaw two weeks later.

Problem is 27 member states issue quite different cards/documents and at the border they do not know all of them.

Besides, the third country national family member of an (for instance) Italian citizen living in Italy, does not profit form this visa free travel, which complicates things for such family members of Italians living in other member states, as they will not easily be distinguish.

Richard66 · Post by **Richard66** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 4:06 pm

Dear Prawo,

Thank you for these suggestions!

The Italian residence permit is half in Italian, that is, the standard text (Name, surname, reason of stay, etc) of the form is in English and in Italian, while the variable text is only in Italian (e.g. motivo del soggiorno/reason of stay: Motivi familiari). I believe your idea is the sensible one. Now, would it need to be certified or do you think I could do it myself? Normally such translations can be done by the appropriate consulate and are then automatically certified. I called my local consulate today (the one in Florence) and even BEFORE I finished speaking they said it's no use: "She needs a visa! This will never work!" It seems all British missions abroad have been told to repeat this ad nauseam, hoping this way they might change the rules.

I noticed the Swiss have placed on their visa page a copy of all EEA residence cards and saying clearly (in 4 languages) what needs to be written on each permit for it to be valid for visa-free travel to Switzerland. I noticed the UK is also included in the package and a holder of about 8 different types of UK residence card may go to Switzerland without problems. Italy is represented with no less than 4 types of residence cards and permits.

The Czechs also have written in BOLD CAPITALS (and a spelling mistake) on their visa page that from May 2004 no EU or EEA or CZECH national or their family members need to apply for any type of visa.

Shame on you, UK: What the Czechs have known from May 2004 you still ignore in September 2007!!

Prawo · Post by **Prawo** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 4:31 pm

Richard66 wrote:I called my local consulate today (the one in Florence) and even BEFORE I finished speaking they said it's no use: "She needs a visa! This will never work!" It seems all British missions abroad have been told to repeat this ad nauseam, hoping this way they might change the rules.

Did you try to confront them with the statement of the UK embassy in Prague, as stated in an EU document referred to earlier (in this or an related topic)?

I noticed the Swiss have placed on their visa page a copy of all EEA residence cards and saying clearly (in 4 languages) what needs to be written on each permit for it to be valid for visa-free travel to Switzerland. I noticed the UK is also included in the package and a holder of about 8 different types of UK residence card may go to Switzerland without problems.

Could you give me the link, so save me time looking myself?

Italy is represented with no less than 4 types of residence cards and permits.{/quote] Is the permit your wife has mentioned among these?

The Czechs also have written in BOLD CAPITALS (and a spelling mistake) on their visa page that from May 2004 no EU or EEA or CZECH national or their family members need to apply for any type of visa.
Could you give a link here too?

Shame on you, UK: What the Czechs have known from May 2004 you still ignore in September 2007!!

It's generally know new member states usually are more loyal Europeans then the old ones.

Richard66 · Post by **Richard66** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:11 pm

Sorry: I was not clear: no UK Internet site would be seen dead posting such information. It was the Czech Republic's site.

This is the Swiss list:

http://www.bfm.admin.ch/bfm/en/home/the ... titel.html

I couldn't find the one I had seen today, but I found this one, from the Czech Republic Embassy in Rome:

http://www.mzv.cz/wwwo/default.asp?ido= ... ParentIDO=

Travel to the Czech Republic without a visa
In case you are a direct relative (mother or father of a child younger than 21 years of age; wife; husband; daughter or son younger than 21 years of age of an EU citizen or of his husband/wife) of a citizen of one of the following countries: Belgium, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Italy, Ireland, France, Cyprus, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxemburg, Hungary, Malta, Germany, the Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Austria, Greece, Slovenia, Slovakia, Spain, Sweden, Great Britain and at the same time you hold a residence permit in one of the countries, you can travel to the Czech Republic without a Czech visa. As a proof of the above-mentioned you have to submit a relevant original document (birth certificate, marriage certificate) in English, German, Russian, Italian, Czech or Slovak language and a copy of your partnerÂ´s ID card or a passport. A document in any other language needs to be officially translated into one of above-mentioned languages.

For the journey to the Czech Republic you need your passport (valid for at least 3 months after you leave the Czech Republic), valid residence permit and the document proving you are a family member of the EU citizen and a copy of your partnerÂ´s ID card or a passport.

Richard66 · Post by **Richard66** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:36 pm

I also found this:

http://www.mzv.cz/wwwo/default.asp?ido= ... b=86&idj=2

TRAVELLING WITHOUT VISAS

In connection with the amendment to the Act on Residence of Aliens in the territory of the Czech Republic the foreigners who fulfil following conditions could travel to the Czech Republic without visas for the period of 3 months maximum:

a family member of the EU citizen who is the holder of the residence permit in an EU member state - in case of Lithuania holders of the residence permit for the family member of the EU citizen (leidimas gyventi, Europos Bendriju) or holders of the permanent residence permit for family member of the EU citizen (leidimas gyventi nuolat, Europos Bendriju). In case that the family ties with the EU citizen are not clear from the residence permit (this is the case of Lithuania), a foreigner has to prove them by some legal document (e.g. marriage or birth certificate) in any EU language (could be among others Lithuanian, but not Russian) at the border. A document in non-EU language has to be translated to Czech or English.

a foreigner who is the holder of the permanent residence permit with granted legal status of the long-term staying resident of the EC.

In connection with a new EC legislation, new rules for travelling of recognised refugees and stateless persons and other persons who do not hold the nationality of any country who reside in an EC member state (e.g. Lithuania) and are holders of a travel document issued by that member state are applied since 19.1.2007. These foreigners could travel to the Czech Republic without visas for the period of 3 months maximum.

ATTENTION!

A family member of the EU citizen is:

1. husband/wife of the EU citizen

2. parent of the EU citizen under 21 years of age

3. child under 21 years of age of the EU citizen

A family member of the EU citizen, who does not fulfil conditions for stay in the Czech Republic without visa, could apply for the visa with the filed application, photograph, copy of the passport and a document proving the fact, that he/she is a family member of the EU citizen.

Richard66 · Post by **Richard66** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:18 pm

And this I've found too:

http://www.uvi.fi/netcomm/content.asp?path=8,2472

The notion of family member is also different when it comes to a family member of an EU citizen or an equivalent person, or a family member of a non-EU citizen. As for the definition of a family member, the family members of a Finnish citizen have the same status as family members of a non-EU citizen. In other words, the wider definition of a family member of an EU citizen does not apply to them.

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Travel with EU Citizen,residence & work-Directive 2004/3