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Castor83
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Joined: 14 Aug 2009
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 Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:21 pm Post subject: Confusion Over Schengen for France |
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Hi all,
Just wondering if anyone has an experience or advice with schengen visa requirements for foreign step child of an EEA national.
We are going to eurodisney next month and I have been told by TLS that myself and my wife do not need a visa. I am Irish she is thai, we live in uk. But that her daughter who is 12 does. I'm not sure the lady on the telephone understood my circumstances that well as she was trying to tell me what paperwork i needed before i gave her all the details.
This didnt make much sense to me so I did a little digging around on their site and saw this in their FAQ
My British residency card states that I am the "Family Member of an EEA national". Do I require a visa to travel to France?
If your British residency card states "Family Member of an EEA national", this family member is not a French or UK citizen, you have official documentation to prove this relationship and you are either travelling together with this person or going to meet them in France, you do not require a visa to travel. However, if you fail to meet any of these criteria, you do require a visa to travel. Please note the the exact words "Family Member of an EEA national" must be written on your residency card and that the quality of simply "being" a family member of an EEA national does not remove the passport holder's requirement to obtain a visa for travel.
They both have EEA family permits which they entered on stating they are joining myself, and now residence documents in their passports which state under type of document :"Residence Card of a family member of an EEA National"
This seems quite clearly to me that neither of them require a visa. But I guess it depends what the French definition of a family member is, even though under EU law it would seem a step child is counted as a family member.
My wife does have sole custody and documents to prove it, but I obviously don't want to go and then get turned back and ruin the holiday 
Any advice greaatly apppreciated |
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EUsmileWEallsmile
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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Family members according to EU law include spouse of EU national's children under 21. Therefore your wife's daughter is a family member.
They both hold article residence cards and if traveling with you, they do not require a visa. |
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EUsmileWEallsmile
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:21 pm Post subject: Re: Confusion Over Schengen for France |
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| Castor83 wrote: | "Residence Card of a family member of an EEA National"
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These are article 10 residence cards that I referred to above. |
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EUsmileWEallsmile
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:22 pm Post subject: Re: Confusion Over Schengen for France |
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| Castor83 wrote: |
We are going to eurodisney next month and I have been told by TLS that myself and my wife do not need a visa. I am Irish she is thai, we live in uk. But that her daughter who is 12 does. I'm not sure the lady on the telephone understood my circumstances that well as she was trying to tell me what paperwork i needed before i gave her all the details. |
TLS are incorrect. |
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EUsmileWEallsmile
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Castor83
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Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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thanks for the replies.
i feel a bit stupid because after I posted this i read the stickys about it and it seems this question has been answered quite a bit... lol.
Anyone know what kind of evidence I should bring just in case. I guess birth certificate and sole custody document my wife has as well as our marriage certificate??
Do I need to bring the parental letter of authorisation to travel? they said i need one signed by a solicitor even know my wife has sole custody and is travelling with us.
Seems with all that I may aswell get a visa. Its just I worked out it will cost me around £200 with 2 translations, 5 translations to be certified by thai embassy, 4 trips to london and the visa service fee. Seems ridiculous! Half of what the trip is costing... |
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John G
Junior Member
Joined: 31 Aug 2011
Posts: 49
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:49 pm Post subject: TLS |
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I am having an absolute nightmare with TLS for the trip to the Tour De France we want to make.... read e-mail below I sent them (read from the bottom)... I await the reply.... they are SOOOO inept! 
John Gargan
10:56 (9 hours ago)
to Julija
Hi Julija,
Thank you for the personal reply.
As I informed your work colleagues previously, Sandra has the "Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National" valid until 18 July 2016. We have lived in London, UK since 2005 and now have a beautiful 7 month old daughter.
So we meet all the criteria that you outline!!!
However, I want clarification on what you mean by "official documentation to prove this relationship". We are not married and have lived in a de-facto relationship for the last 4 years, so we don't have a marriage certificate. What alternative documents would be sufficient?
Can you please check with the relevant legal authority at the French Consulate/Embassy in the UK? and if none in the UK, then the relevant legal authority in France?
I would like written confirmation via e-mail that my partner, Sandra, can travel with me to France without needing a Schengen Visa by virtue of having the following Visa: RESIDENCE DOCUMENTATION - Type of Document : Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National - valid until 18 July 2016?
Also, I don't understand why we even need to prove our relationship to the French Authorities! We have already proven our relationship to the UK border agency otherwise they would not have issued Sandra with the "Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National" valid until 18 July 2016! Are you telling me that the checks that the UKBA make are insufficiently stringent for the French Authorities? In addition, we also have a daughter together!
For your information, I have also e-mailed the Spanish and Italian consulate with the same question for trips we intend to take in August 2012 and they have both confirmed she has freedom of movement within Spain/Italy and in fact all EEA countries with the "Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National" so long as she travels with me.
The only reason I am e-mailing you to confirm our EEA rights, is just to travel with peace of mind. If we happen to come across an over zealous French border guard that does not know/understand EU law then I can present the e-mail confirmation from yourself along with the relevant EU Directive printed out etc etc.
I have undertaken extensive research on this topic and the following link provides guidance on applying European Union Directive 2004/38/CE :
http://register.consilium.europa.eu/pdf/en/06/st15/st15010.en06.pdf
I also direct you to this immigration forum which has extensive information about this EU Directive and first hand experience from other EU citizens travelling under the EEA Residence card visa (both Married and in de facto relationships). It also has examples of EU citizens in de-facto relationships travelling to France without any problems:
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=98029
I look forward to your prompt reply so we can finalise our trip to France ASAP.
Best Regards
John Gargan
Dear ,
I am writing on behalf of TLScontact center regarding your query about the Residency permit of a family member of EEA national.
Please note that if your British residency card states "Family Member of an EEA national", this family member is not a French or UK citizen, you have official documentation to prove this relationship and you are either travelling together with this person or going to meet them in France, you do not require a visa to travel. However, if you fail to meet any of these criteria, you do require a visa to travel. Please note the the exact words "Family Member of an EEA national" must be written on your residency card and that the quality of simply "being" a family member of an EEA national does not remove the passport holder's requirement to obtain a visa for travel.
In your case, if your partner will present residency permit card mentioned "Family Member of an EEA national", proof of relationship and you will be traveling together, your partner will not need visa to travel to France.
Should you have any other queries do not hesitate to contact us. |
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Castor83
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Joined: 14 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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lol... excellent copy/paste reply from her there.
I've just had a thought actually. Do you have the letter UKBA sent with the residence permit thing. I have one which states they are family members of an eea national etc.
Might be sufficient... |
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Castor83
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| also if she has a EEA permit to enter UK then it should say on that something about "eea family member joining John XXXX" |
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EUsmileWEallsmile
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Castor83 wrote: | thanks for the replies.
i feel a bit stupid because after I posted this i read the stickys about it and it seems this question has been answered quite a bit... lol.
Anyone know what kind of evidence I should bring just in case. I guess birth certificate and sole custody document my wife has as well as our marriage certificate??
Do I need to bring the parental letter of authorisation to travel? they said i need one signed by a solicitor even know my wife has sole custody and is travelling with us.
Seems with all that I may aswell get a visa. Its just I worked out it will cost me around £200 with 2 translations, 5 translations to be certified by thai embassy, 4 trips to london and the visa service fee. Seems ridiculous! Half of what the trip is costing... |
No need, your family members do not need a visa. |
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John G
Junior Member
Joined: 31 Aug 2011
Posts: 49
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Castor83 wrote: | lol... excellent copy/paste reply from her there.
I've just had a thought actually. Do you have the letter UKBA sent with the residence permit thing. I have one which states they are family members of an eea national etc.
Might be sufficient... |
Hey Castor 83, good point. To be honest, I just want them to confirm what I already know!
But they keep harping on about needing to PROVE the relationship! Which seems ridiculous to me! The UKBA has already issued the EEA family visa AFTER they have qualified the proof given to them!
Anyways, as long as they reply with something that makes sense I will wait.... I am not giving this battle up until they e-mail back to me something WHICH MAKES LEGAL EU SENSE 
I work in sales and persistence (especially when you know you are right) will eventually pay off (I have already proven this with the Spanish and Italian Consulate muppets)
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EUsmileWEallsmile
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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We've been crossing posts....
An article 10 residence card exempts a family member from the requirement to have a visa. The directive does not say that one has to prove family relationship at the border.
What it says is this (in extract).
| Quote: | Article 5
1. ...Member States shall grant Union citizens leave to enter their territory with a valid identity card or passport and shall grant family members who are not nationals of a Member State leave to enter their territory with a valid passport...
2. ...For the purposes of this Directive, possession of the valid residence card referred to in Article 10 shall exempt such family members from the visa requirement.
3. The host Member State shall not place an entry or exit stamp in the passport of family members who are not nationals of a Member State provided that they present the residence card provided for in Article 10. |
For your own peace of mind, it would do no harm if you can independently demonstrate that you are related, but you don't have to. It's more to give you confidence. |
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John G
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Joined: 31 Aug 2011
Posts: 49
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| EUsmileWEallsmile wrote: | We've been crossing posts....
An article 10 residence card exempts a family member from the requirement to have a visa. The directive does not say that one has to prove family relationship at the border.
What it says is this (in extract).
| Quote: | Article 5
1. ...Member States shall grant Union citizens leave to enter their territory with a valid identity card or passport and shall grant family members who are not nationals of a Member State leave to enter their territory with a valid passport...
2. ...For the purposes of this Directive, possession of the valid residence card referred to in Article 10 shall exempt such family members from the visa requirement.
3. The host Member State shall not place an entry or exit stamp in the passport of family members who are not nationals of a Member State provided that they present the residence card provided for in Article 10. |
For your own peace of mind, it would do no harm if you can independently demonstrate that you are related, but you don't have to. It's more to give you confidence. |
Thanks EUsmileWEallsmile (Guru)
You are a fountain of information my friend!
I'll keep that little beauty up my sleeve if the border guards want to tussle! LoL
In any case, hopefully these muppets at TLS/French Embassy or Consulate get back to me and confirm what I already know. That way I have further ammunition
It's all about covering your bases in my opinion, best to have over information than under information if you know what I mean  ... especially if you come across some border guard who is inept with EU Law/having a bad hair day or both
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Castor83
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Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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wow... thanks for the info!
thats awesome.
so technically all the documents thaat are required for a visa, are kind of scrapped for EEA nationals and families then?
So I don't even really need the parental consent to travel form thing? I mean in her passport it says she is a family member and the first permit names me as the EEA national she is moving to UK with.
I'm just so paranoid about having to head back from disneyland... (althought im sure id prefer four days at home ) |
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EUsmileWEallsmile
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Castor83 wrote: |
so technically all the documents thaat are required for a visa, are kind of scrapped for EEA nationals and families then?
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Even better, neither the visa nor the documents required for a visa are required for family members who hold an article 10 residence card. Good, eh? |
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EUsmileWEallsmile
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Castor83 wrote: | | I mean in her passport it says she is a family member and the first permit names me as the EEA national she is moving to UK with. |
That's more than enough proof to have up your sleeve. I suspect that you'll get to the border and won't even have to show it, but you know you have it in case there is a problem. |
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Castor83
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Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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thanks...
im quite excited now. haha!
Ill be sure to post our experience... we go end of july. |
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EUsmileWEallsmile
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Castor83 wrote: | thanks...
im quite excited now. haha!
Ill be sure to post our experience... we go end of july. |
Enjoy your trip! |
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mcovet
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:45 am Post subject: |
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| just wanted to add that noone ever stopped my wife leave the UK by eurostar even when she travelled ALONE with the residence card, so you may have problems coming back but leaving is no problem! |
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EUsmileWEallsmile
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:09 am Post subject: |
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| mcovet wrote: | | just wanted to add that noone ever stopped my wife leave the UK by eurostar even when she travelled ALONE with the residence card, so you may have problems coming back but leaving is no problem! |
That's interesting, so she got past the French border guards alone.
In general, I would have thought people would have the opposite, problems leaving to go to Europe, but with valid residence coming back to the UK. |
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