EEA4 and Soon to Expire Passport

[Plum70]

My passport expires in 11 months and i'll be applying for PR confirmation this Oct. I have left it a bit tight but want to get a new passport along with my PR application so that the PR vignette is affixed in the new passport.

Once a new passport is issued my embassy will stamp the old with a notice saying "cancelled without prejudice". Will this invalidate my residence permit and valid Schengen visas?

This is important for the two EU trips I have this year. And I also want to be able to travel on my current passport if need be while my PR application is being processed.

Thx.

[Jambo]

Didn't really follow why you are worried about the RC if you will get the PR in the new passport. In any case, invalid passport doesn't invalidate the RC. Just carry both passports.

[Plum70]

Didn't really follow why you are worried about the RC if you will get the PR in the new passport.

As it may take up to 6 months for my PR application I thought to:

• Apply for a new passport before October
  Submit both passports to the UKBA in Oct.
  Request that the old one be returned soon after it has been checked by the UKBA
  Use the old one for trips between Oct. '12 and April/May '13 (and apply for visas where necessary)

So, I want to know if t it is possible to travel on a passport that has been cancelled (w/out prejudice) - where the new passport is not available to hand - but still has a valid RC and (Schengen) visa.

If this isn't possible then I might as well hold off getting a new passport till summer '13.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Didn't really follow why you are worried about the RC if you will get the PR in the new passport.

As it may take up to 6 months for my PR application I thought to:

• Apply for a new passport before October
  Submit both passports to the UKBA in Oct.
  Request that the old one be returned soon after it has been checked by the UKBA
  Use the old one for trips between Oct. '12 and April/May '13 (and apply for visas where necessary)

So, I want to know if t it is possible to travel on a passport that has been cancelled (w/out prejudice) - where the new passport is not available to hand - but still has a valid RC and (Schengen) visa.

If this isn't possible then I might as well hold off getting a new passport till summer '13.

Basically, you will not be able to travel on an invalid passport (expired or cancelled).

[Plum70]

Basically, you will not be able to travel on an invalid passport (expired or cancelled).

I would've thought this would be possible say by producing a birth certificate alongside? Anyway, it was more for convenience than urgency so can wait.

Thx

[fysicus]

Plum70, if I were you I would keep it simple. Don't bother about a new passport now; simply apply for PR when the time for that has come, ask your passports back when you got the CoA, and travel on it until it is time to get a new passport (middle of next year apparently). Hopefully your travel plans allow for a period of about six weeks without passport?

This will probably result in your PRC being issued as a standalone Immigration Status Document, and I have the impression that you are keen to avoid that. However, I can assure you that my wife has had no problem at all with a standalone PRC at any occasion (checking in for a flight, boarding a plane, passport control on leaving her country of origin, and of course UK immigration), even when travelling alone.
The PRC doesn't mention your passport number, so you can use it in combination with any (valid) passport for travel.

If you really want, you can always later reapply for confirmation of PR when you have your new passport and have a window in which you have no travel planned.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

...However, I can assure you that my wife has had no problem at all with a standalone PRC at any occasion (checking in for a flight, boarding a plane, passport control on leaving her country of origin, and of course UK immigration), even when travelling alone...

This is very interesting. Good to hear.

[Plum70]

Thanks Fysicus.

Plum70, if I were you I would keep it simple.

It seemed like a doable plan if I could travel on my current passport with the extra pages stamped/cancelled by my embassy. But this not being possible and other variables (booked trips this mont and early Oct.) mean that it's pretty pointless rushing to get a new passport now.

I definitely want to avoid having my PR on a separate A4 sheet - not only because i'm clumsy and might lose it - which means that I may have to stay put between Oct. and May next year when the UKBA finish processing my application. Would've also been ideal having my PR in a new passport so I only need to travel with the one, but no big deal logging two around.

Btw, how has your wife found applying for Schengen visas with the stand alone doc? I know the French Embassy do not accept it unless affixed in a passport.

[fysicus]

I definitely want to avoid having my PR on a separate A4 sheet - not only because i'm clumsy and might lose it - which means that I may have to stay put between Oct. and May next year when the UKBA finish processing my application.

That's your own choice then.

Btw, how has your wife found applying for Schengen visas with the stand alone doc? I know the French Embassy do not accept it unless affixed in a passport.

We haven't applied for a Schengenvisa since May 2006, because the (P)RC exempts you from the visa requirements. All our trips to Schengenland we were travelling together.
Anybody who has been refused a visa because of such a silly reason (standalone RC) should complain to the European Commission. In fact, the EC prefers a standalone RC (but not the A4 format) because the expiry date of an RC is often beyond the expiry date of the associated passport, which is another possible source of practical problems.
I know the Swiss claim that they are not bound by 2004/38 and thus require a (Schengen-)visa for RC-holders. As far as I know, no-one has tested that in court, and I'm fairly sure it amounts to a violation of the Schengen treaty (which refers to other EU legislation at various points).

[Plum70]

That's your own choice then.

Certainly is. A stand alone doc in the format the UKBA has chosen to present it in lacks credibility when compared to similar docs issued elsewhere in the EU. I imagine that this is why some embassies simply do not recognise and refuse to accept it.

Btw, how has your wife found applying for Schengen visas with the stand alone doc? I know the French Embassy do not accept it unless affixed in a passport.

We haven't applied for a Schengenvisa since May 2006, because the (P)RC exempts you from the visa requirements. All our trips to Schengenland we were travelling together.

We will be making separate trips at times so I cannot avoid needing a Schengen visa in the future. So far I have gotten them pretty easily and hope this continues to be the case.

[fysicus]

A stand alone doc in the format the UKBA has chosen to present it in lacks credibility when compared to similar docs issued elsewhere in the EU.

It's the same sticker with the same security features, so how can it lack credibility? As long as it is not in violation of any European legislation other EU countries have no legal basis for not accepting it!

[Plum70]

A stand alone doc in the format the UKBA has chosen to present it in lacks credibility when compared to similar docs issued elsewhere in the EU.

It's the same sticker with the same security features, so how can it lack credibility? As long as it is not in violation of any European legislation other EU countries have no legal basis for not accepting it!

I more meant that the UKBA's format can be more easily damaged or tampered with. After all it is a vignette on a stand alone A4 sheet. The plastic card type format as the UKBA used to issue UK entry residence permits back in 2010/11 would have been ideal and perhaps accepted as a stand alone document by some embassies.

My husband's Swiss driver's licence is one of such paper docs which now looks quite shabby and more like undesirable report card. I cannot see the PR stand alone vignette lasting 10 years with average use, not to talk of frequent use. It just doesn't work.

[Plum70]

I am unsure about how to answer two questions on the EEA4 application and this is what i've opted to do. Useful comments welcome:

To the question: "date of your 1st arrival in the UK": I entered the date I arrived on my WHM visa (after studying) which was in Nov. 2006. The reason i've done this is that I did not enter the UK as a Swiss FM; my husband and I finally moved in together in May '07, got married in Nov. '07 and so I plan to apply 6 weeks before our 5th 'wedding anniversary' which will include a bit of our cohabitation period. I also plan to include our joint tenancy agreement and bank statements from May '07.

Dates of absence from the UK in the last 5 years: I have gone back as far as June '07 for myself alone but have not included any periods of absences for my husband after he attained PR as he has only held this for 10 months. Is this right?

To cover the above dates I will provide my two passports - one that contains both my UK student and WHM visas (plus 2006 entry stamp) and the current passport holding my RC.

Is my approach going to complicate matters?

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Plum, the important thing is not what the form says, but the requirements that are set out in the directive and regulations (which the UK has extended to Swiss Nationals and their family members).

In your case, all you need.

Your passport
Your husband's passport
Your husband's PR card (or even the letter that came with it)
Proof that you lived in the UK for five years (a great example would be council tax demands for the period).

You can write a covering letter stating that you entered the UK as a student etc, met and married your husband etc. Importantly, state that you resided in the UK for five years and have not been absent for more than six months (great if you can remember all your trips outside the UK, but don't stress yourself out if you can't remember precisely).

Any gaps or doubts you may have when filling in the form, can be explained in your cover letter.

It is fine applying shortly before the five years are completed and you can state this in your covering letter as well.

[Plum70]

If I had either entered the UK as a EFTA family member or was not applying before my 5th anniversary it would've been very straight forward.

To keep things simple I don't want to have to mention my period as a student ('04 - '06) even though hubby and I were already in a r/ship during this time. As I left the UK and re-entered in '06 I thought to use this as my arrival date and hope this is not interpreted as 'date of arrival as a non-EU family member'.

For proof of residency I plan on providing our joint tenancy agreement and joint water bills from '07 - '12. I have a trail of all trips taken in the last 5+ years. After i've organised all the docs i'll see if a cover letter is still necessary.

Am I right in wanting to include my former passport with UK entry clearance (WHM)?

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

If I had either entered the UK as a EFTA family member or was not applying before my 5th anniversary it would've been very straight forward.

This is still very straightforward. Don't worry yourself over it.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

If I had either entered the UK as a EFTA family member or was not applying before my 5th anniversary it would've been very straight forward. it still is.

To keep things simple I don't want to have to mention my period as a student ('04 - '06) even though hubby and I were already in a r/ship during this time. As I left the UK and re-entered in '06 I thought to use this as my arrival date and hope this is not interpreted as 'date of arrival as a non-EU family member'. Mention or don't mention, it will make no difference.

For proof of residency I plan on providing our joint tenancy agreement and joint water bills from '07 - '12. I have a trail of all trips taken in the last 5+ years. This seems perfect.

After i've organised all the docs i'll see if a cover letter is still necessary. I would always include a cover letter, it's your opportunity to organise your application as you see fit (or at least to list your evidence).

Am I right in wanting to include my former passport with UK entry clearance (WHM)? You don't need to do this.

See above

[Plum70]

Thanks for your comments EUSmile. I'm not worried but want to reduce the likelihood of the UKBA returning my application unprocessed as well as the hassle and cost of several SD mailings.

Am I right in wanting to include my former passport with UK entry clearance (WHM)? You don't need to do this.

This passport contains my entry stamps from trips in '07 which i've listed in my EEA4 form. My current passport was issued mid 08 and thus wouldn't be sufficient to reflect my travel history for 5 years.

Am I still being too pedantic?

P.S: What date would you advise I use as my 'date of arrival to the UK'?

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Thanks for your comments EUSmile. I'm not worried but want to reduce the likelihood of the UKBA returning my application unprocessed as well as the hassle and cost of several SD mailings.

Am I right in wanting to include my former passport with UK entry clearance (WHM)? You don't need to do this.

This passport contains my entry stamps from trips in '07 which i've listed in my EEA4 form. My current passport was issued mid 08 and thus wouldn't be sufficient to reflect my travel history for 5 years.

Am I still being too pedantic? :?

P.S: What date would you advise I use as my 'date of arrival to the UK'?

I think you are being overly cautious. I suggest you organise your application in line with a covering letter that explains your specific circumstances.

All they will look for is whether you were the family member of a Swiss national who lived in the UK in accordance with the 2006 regulations for the required time (5 years). If yes, PR card will be issued.

[Plum70]

OK.

I will distill my info to show:

Our identities - both my passports and hubby's
Our r/ship - marriage certificate
My continuous residence for 5 years - joint water/c.tax bills + joint tenancy agreement
Hubby's PR status - PR card
Brief cover letter

Thanks again.