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ca.funke
Sage
Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 613
Location: Zürich (INside(!) Schengen)
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 Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:52 pm Post subject: Re: Finnish UK embassy |
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Hi 86ti,
thanks for this valuable input 
Reading this makes my blood boil. 
As per my first post in this thread, the European Commission describes the current situation, which is binding and unambiguous law, >>here<<:
| Quote: | YOU MIGHT BE REQUIRED TO HAVE AN ENTRY VISA
Possession of the valid residence card, (...) issued by any Member State, exempts you from the visa obligation not only in the Member State which issued the residence card, but in all Member States. |
Thus what the Finnish embassy is writing here:
| Finnish Embassy/London, 13/11/2008 wrote: | | [...] At the moment ´visa freedom´ ( holder of EEA Family Member Sticker) is only valid if one is moving ( in order to work ) to Finland with an EU -spouse or travelling to Finland in other than Tourist/ Holiday Purposes with an EU spouse. It is still recommended to hold a visa that is why it is instructed on our website too. [...] |
is directly contradicting the Commissions' official guideline and -simply- wrong.
2004/38/EC is always applicable for all non-EU-family-members of an EU-national if
- The non-EU-family-member in question is living together with the EU-family-member in another memberstate than the state from where the EU-family-member is from OR
- in this case it is valid all over the EU, including the state of origin of the EU-citizen
- The same people are travelling inside the EU, but outside the member-state of origin of the EU-person.
In other words, the only (not reasonable but legal) cases where you cannot claim rights from 2004/38/EC is when:- an EU-citizen lives with a non-EU-family-member in the state where the EU-member is from
- result is that you may have to go through the more scrutinizing way of getting a residence or work permit for the non-EU-part OR
- You live outside the EU and want to visit your country of origin
- result is, you may need a visa, unlike for the rest of the EU
- Surinder-Singh cases, but that's a speciality not worth going into right now
The Finnish Embassy seems to change their mind sometimes: When I asked them (see first page of this thread) they replied:
| Quote: | ---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: xyz@formin.fi
Date: Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 10:50 AM
Subject: FW: Visa necessary?
To: Christian
Dear Mr.,
Thank you for your message. The EU4Fam card is sufficient, your wife
does not need a visa to enter Finland in this case.
Hope you will have a nice stay in Finland.
Best regards,
Embassy of Finland
Dublin |
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86ti
Guru
Joined: 21 Nov 2007
Posts: 1393
Location: Warrington, UK
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| Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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Christian, you may be interested in the following page
http://www.bka.gv.at/DocView.axd?CobId=33397
The case is mostly concerned with the Metock and Sahin cases but read the last sentence in the first paragraph in 'Zusammenfassung der Entscheidungen'.
You may remember that I got a positive response from the Austrian MFA via SOLVIT but after I found last December that the web page of the embassy in London is still wrong I tried to contact them. No answer as of yet. I asked SOLVIT again to clarify and they contacted the embassy last Monday. No response yet.
Interestingly, SOLVIT also contacted the Austrian BMI (that's the Ministry of the Interior) who came almost instantly back to them and offered me to inform AUA and the boarder police (don't ask me why they need to be informed about an individual case) if I told them when I wanted to fly. The BMI also promised to contact the MFA about the webpage.
I also tried to get a response from the embassy in Dublin but was ignored too. |
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robby1
Junior Member
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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hi guys,
i am flying to berlin next month with my spouse and i am in possestion of eu-fam4 card,does anyone of u have idea about berlin immigration, hope they are aware of regulation ,but last time i flew to munich they did't have any clue about this regulation and we were in immigration office for more then an hour ,after they said sorry that they did't know about this rule ..should i ring to berlin airport immigration before i leave to remind them .. |
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foreigndub
Newbie
Joined: 05 Jan 2007
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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I am an EU national (Portugal) my spouse is non-EU with a eu-fam4 card.
Travelled to Weese in Germany in Feb 2009. No visa, no problems, straight through. 
Travelling to Portugal in April, called the Embassy and was told she would need a visa.  |
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Ben
Guru
Joined: 05 Jul 2007
Posts: 2266
Location: Waterford
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| foreigndub wrote: | | Travelling to Portugal in April, called the Embassy and was told she would need a visa. |
Hmm.. I don't like the look of this either..
Do you plan to get a visa for your wife, or not? |
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86ti
Guru
Joined: 21 Nov 2007
Posts: 1393
Location: Warrington, UK
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| benifa wrote: | | foreigndub wrote: | | Travelling to Portugal in April, called the Embassy and was told she would need a visa. |
Hmm.. I don't like the look of this either..
Do you plan to get a visa for your wife, or not? |
The embassy in London says something about not needing a visa if a valid residence permit is held just like the Portuguese implementation of the directive. But it is not clear what residence permits would be considered valid (do they use the UK interpretation?). Wonder what Mr. Barroso would have to say about this? |
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ca.funke
Sage
Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 613
Location: Zürich (INside(!) Schengen)
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| foreigndub wrote: | I am an EU national (Portugal) my spouse is non-EU with a eu-fam4 card.
Travelled to Weese in Germany in Feb 2009. No visa, no problems, straight through.
Travelling to Portugal in April, called the Embassy and was told she would need a visa. |
As Portugal originally never replied, I sent them my first email again today.
Will report how it goes. |
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ca.funke
Sage
Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 613
Location: Zürich (INside(!) Schengen)
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| ca.funke wrote: | As Portugal originally never replied, I sent them my first email again today.
Will report how it goes. |
The (incorrect) answer came faster than I though:
| Quote: | ---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: xyz@dublin.dgaccp.pt
Date: Mon, Mar 9, 2009
Subject: RE: Visa necessary?
To: Christian
Dear Sir,
With reference to your e mail dated 9th March instant, your wife needs a visa to enter Portugal although she is in possession of an EU4-Fam card, which is free of cost being married to an EU citizen. As the approval from Portugal and other Schengen Partners takes approximately 2 to 3 weeks, we would appreciate if she could apply at her earliest convenience. You can contact our Web Site www.embassyportugal.ie or call me on tel. number 01-abcdefg for further information.
...
Regards
xxx
Chancellor |
I followed up with my "usual" second email, as per first post, asking if she really needs a visa, and what documents are needed...
...any replies will be posted here, of course. |
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ca.funke
Sage
Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 613
Location: Zürich (INside(!) Schengen)
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| ca.funke wrote: | I followed up with my "usual" second email, as per first post, asking if she really needs a visa, and what documents are needed...
...any replies will be posted here, of course. |
The (incorrect) second reply came, again, much faster than I thought:
| Quote: | ---------- Original message ----------
From: xyz@dublin.dgaccp.pt
Date: Tue, Mar 10, 2009
Subject: RE: Visa necessary?
To: Christian
Dear Sir,
Basically all we need is the Schengen visa form duly filled, proof of the flight reservations, passport, residence card, marriage certificate and the original passport of the spouse along with a coloured photo.
Thanks n regards,
xyz |
As I live in Zürich now all of this has a certain irony to it. Anyways, followed up as follows:
| Quote: | ---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Christian
Date: Tue, Mar 10, 2009
Subject: Re: Visa necessary?
To: xyz@dublin.dgaccp.pt
Dear Mr. xyz,
actually, we're not planning to go to Portugal - my wife and me have been to Faro a while ago and it was fabulous! 
The reason for my email was that, a while ago, I conducted a survey about Schengen-embassies in Dublin and analysed the different answers.
At the time I must have used an incorrect email for the Portugese embassy, at least I never got a reply.
You can see the complete survey here:
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=30020
At the end I summarised my findings into a petition to the European Parliament, which is attached. (Can be found in this Forum too...)
If you study the given link you will see that, actually, the 4EUFam-card allows entry into the Schengen-Area under certain conditions, however all embassies take a different stance.
If you want to investigate further, please confirm with your ministry of foreign affairs, study the given link and/or talk to other Schengen-embassies in Dublin... you will be surprised
Personally, my wife and me wanted to be able to visit my parents in Belgium whenever we please. The continuous hassle we were exposed to in this regard prompted us to move away from Ireland, so we now actually live in Switzerland (which is inside Schengen). I just sent this email as I am still somewhat active in the above forum.
Thanks for your prompt reply anyawy and of course I'd be happy to receive additional feedback, if you have any.
Regards and all the best, Christian |
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archigabe
Moderator
Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 1321
Location: Dublin
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archigabe
Moderator
Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 1321
Location: Dublin
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| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Well' what do you know...I met a little dictator at the swiss embassy who insisted that he doen't care if the application form says no details on hotels,flights,insurance required for E.U spouses, we have to provide all those details if we wanted to visit Switzerland. |
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Directive/2004/38/EC
Guru
Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 2078
Location: EU
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:52 am Post subject: |
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The problem with dealing with swiss "little dictators" is that ECJ court judgements do not apply. They are part of Schengen but not part of the EU.
It used to be Switzerland was a good place to go on vacation because they issued visas nicely and quickly. Maybe it is time to explore the rest of Europe again.
_________________
Directive 2004/38/EC lays out most of the freedom of movement and residency rights (for both EU citizens and their non-EU families): http://eumovement.wordpress.com/ |
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ca.funke
Sage
Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 613
Location: Zürich (INside(!) Schengen)
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| Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:52 am Post subject: |
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| archigabe wrote: | | Well' what do you know...I met a little dictator at the swiss embassy who insisted that he doen't care if the application form says no details on hotels,flights,insurance required for E.U spouses, we have to provide all those details if we wanted to visit Switzerland. |
Hi Archigabe,
during my move to CH I established contact with a very nice and understanding person in the immigration office in Switzerland.
If you want I can contact him on your behalf? (PM me if you want me to, maybe you still have my usual email?)
Regards from currently Mumbai, Christian |
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astraclub
Junior Member
Joined: 19 Nov 2008
Posts: 18
Location: Ireland
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| Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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i got 4Eu FAM for my wife and will try now. I am an Irish citizen (Previously Indian) and have Irish pasport, I see a problem with our own GNIB card, if you turn it over, it says:
IT IS NOT AN IDENTITY CARD
why is this not been an identity card by IRISH national.
I was refused entry at paris airport to go out in night as my flight was late (March09-Than i had indian passport),
The immigration office rudley says --it is nothing, not even irish govt offical card by showing it from the back
errrrrrggggggghhhhhhhhh
anyway, situation is changed now and will see what happen at bilabao. |
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Directive/2004/38/EC
Guru
Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 2078
Location: EU
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 5:06 am Post subject: |
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| astraclub wrote: | i got 4Eu FAM for my wife and will try now. I am an Irish citizen (Previously Indian) and have Irish pasport, I see a problem with our own GNIB card, if you turn it over, it says:
IT IS NOT AN IDENTITY CARD
why is this not been an identity card by IRISH national.
I was refused entry at paris airport to go out in night as my flight was late (March09-Than i had indian passport),
The immigration office rudley says --it is nothing, not even irish govt offical card by showing it from the back
errrrrrggggggghhhhhhhhh
anyway, situation is changed now and will see what happen at bilabao. |
I am a bit confused. Did you have a problem in Paris with a 4EUFam? A GNIB card is, I understand, something very different than a Residence Card (which in Ireland is called 4EUFam).
If you are Irish and your wife has a 4EUFam, that means you most likely worked in another EU country. Can I ask where you worked?
_________________
Directive 2004/38/EC lays out most of the freedom of movement and residency rights (for both EU citizens and their non-EU families): http://eumovement.wordpress.com/ |
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ca.funke
Sage
Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 613
Location: Zürich (INside(!) Schengen)
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Directive/2004/38/EC wrote: | I am a bit confused. Did you have a problem in Paris with a 4EUFam? A GNIB card is, I understand, something very different than a Residence Card (which in Ireland is called 4EUFam).
If you are Irish and your wife has a 4EUFam, that means you most likely worked in another EU country. Can I ask where you worked? |
Hi Directive,
the 4EUFam Card is also a "GNIB-Card". It´s just that the law is unclear about how it should look like:
| Quote: |
Article 10
Issue of residence cards
1. The right of residence of family members of a Union
citizen who are not nationals of a Member State shall be
evidenced by the issuing of a document called ‘Residence card
of a family member of a Union citizen’ no later than six
months from the date on which they submit the application. A
certificate of application for the residence card shall be issued
immediately. |
Most countries (all Schengen countries) interpret this in such a way as the actual text "Residence card of a family member of a Union citizen" has to appear on the card.
Ireland and the UK ignore this by calling the card "Residence card of a family member of a Union citizen" on the application papers, but they are actually marked 4EUFam or similar, with the actual text not appearing.
Well, gramatically the sentence in the law does not say it has to appear on the card. All this adds to the confusion.
However: The 4EUFam (="GNIB Stamp 4EUFam") card is the card as per the above Article, but nowhere mentions "Residence card
of a family member of a Union citizen"
If you want I can prepare a scan of the card, so you can see it. |
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Ben
Guru
Joined: 05 Jul 2007
Posts: 2266
Location: Waterford
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86ti
Guru
Joined: 21 Nov 2007
Posts: 1393
Location: Warrington, UK
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| ca.funke wrote: | | ... the UK ignore this by calling the card "Residence card of a family member of a Union citizen" on the application papers, but they are actually marked 4EUFam or similar, with the actual text not appearing. |
But quite close. And it actullay makes more sense as the Directive applies to the whole EEA.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/UK_residence_card_mod.png |
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ca.funke
Sage
Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 613
Location: Zürich (INside(!) Schengen)
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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cool,
thanks for the uploads - I just started scanning ours... Guess you took the hassle away for me - thanks !
The UK-one is actually better than I thought.
Thanks again, rgds from Switzerland |
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microlab
Member of Standing
Joined: 12 Apr 2007
Posts: 203
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| Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 11:47 am Post subject: |
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Recently we were going through Abu Dhabi. Immigration guy kept looking at my wifes passport, pointing at the stamp and asking questions. In all fairness to him I think STAMP looks primitive with all that rollerball pen writing and not a single word what is for and who for, i.e EU family,work permit etc...End of the rant !
_________________
Two Aerials meet on a roof - fall in love - get married.
The ceremony was rubbish but the reception was brilliant. |
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