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Accepted Professions (sticky)

A section for posts relating to applications for Naturalisation or Registration as a British Citizen. Naturalisation

Moderators: Casa, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, Zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, archigabe, push

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LondonApplicant
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Accepted Professions (sticky)

Post by LondonApplicant » Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:29 pm

I'd like to propose a sticky topic to list:

1) the professions which were accepted, or not accepted, as meeting the 'professional' requirement for at least one referee, when applying for British citizenship

2) how this was confirmed: did the Border Agency specifically say a given profession would not have been acceptable?

3) if the UKBA contacted the referee in question for confirmation or not

This is because, if I understand correctly, the list of 'acceptable professional persons' published on:

Annex A: list of acceptable professional persons

is only indicative. Accordingly, additional clarity would be useful. For example, medical doctors and GPs are not listed but are accepted, as posted in several other topics.

Not to mention that I honestly fail to grasp the rationale whereby Christian science practictioners, funeral directors and driving instructors (all listed in the link above) would be acceptable, and architects or research scientists (neither is listed) wouldn't.

Moderators, what do you think?

wpilr_nov12
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Re: Proposal for a sticky topic: accepted professions

Post by wpilr_nov12 » Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:35 pm

LondonApplicant wrote:...
Not to mention that I honestly fail to grasp the rationale whereby Christian science practictioners, funeral directors and driving instructors (all listed in the link above) would be acceptable, and architects or research scientists (neither is listed) wouldn't....
The former group works in your 'social community', latter group in 'professional community'. My understanding, nothing official.
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LondonApplicant
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Re: Proposal for a sticky topic: accepted professions

Post by LondonApplicant » Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:44 pm

wpilr_nov12 wrote:
LondonApplicant wrote:...
Not to mention that I honestly fail to grasp the rationale whereby Christian science practictioners, funeral directors and driving instructors (all listed in the link above) would be acceptable, and architects or research scientists (neither is listed) wouldn't....
The former group works in your 'social community', latter group in 'professional community'. My understanding, nothing official.
But accountants, solicitors and barristers (also mentioned in the list) work in a professional community, not in a social one, in my opinion.

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Post by asim72 » Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:14 pm

What an absurd topic.

Why do you have to find a rationale of why and how ukba decides who can act as a referee?

They decide, and have given a list of people they accept as referees. That should be the end of matter.

LondonApplicant
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Post by LondonApplicant » Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:24 pm

asim72 wrote:What an absurd topic.

Why do you have to find a rationale of why and how ukba decides who can act as a referee?

They decide, and have given a list of people they accept as referees. That should be the end of matter.
I dared express an opinion, but that was not the key point. The facts that the list is not exhaustive and that some professions they list are not defined clearly mean that publishing that list is not the end of the matter.

The key point behind my proposal is obtaining additional clarity; for example, GPs are not in the list but are accepted. My proposal to add a sticky topic is basically meant to answer these questions:

1) do you know for sure of any additional professions which would be accepted even though they are not listed (like GPs)?

2) have you received clarification on the meaning of some of the professions listed? For example, what exactly is a 'bank official'?

3) Do you know for sure of any professions which would not be accepted? For example, would a university professor fall under the category 'teacher' Some on the forum think it would, but 'professor' is not explicitly mentioned

What's so absurd about obtaining additional clarity on these points?

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Post by asim72 » Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:34 pm

LondonApplicant wrote:
asim72 wrote:What an absurd topic.

Why do you have to find a rationale of why and how ukba decides who can act as a referee?

They decide, and have given a list of people they accept as referees. That should be the end of matter.
I dared express an opinion, but that was not the key point. The facts that the list is not exhaustive and that some professions they list are not defined clearly mean that publishing that list is not the end of the matter.

The key point behind my proposal is obtaining additional clarity; for example, GPs are not in the list but are accepted. My proposal to add a sticky topic is basically meant to answer these questions:

1) do you know for sure of any additional professions which would be accepted even though they are not listed (like GPs)?
I would use the word "professionals" here. I wont run into the whole idea of listing of professions in the list. In a nutshell, whoever is a member of a professional body is accpetable. Like BMA, Bar association, chartered engineer, chartered accountant etc etc etc


2) have you received clarification on the meaning of some of the professions listed? For example, what exactly is a 'bank official'?
Well, I am not a hyper to do research into such a trivial matter, which anyone might need once in their lifetime just to put a signature down.
A bank official is a person whom the bank regards as an official, simple.


3) Do you know for sure of any professions who would not be accepted? For example, would a university professor fall under the category 'teacher' Some on the forum think it would, but 'professor' is not explicitly mentioned
Same as my above answer.

What's so absurd about obtaining additional clarity on these points?
Why do you need clarity? What would that clarity do? Just a common sense approach will do here. If a certain person is totally unacceptable to UKBA, they will ask for further reference. The sky won't fall down. Application won't be refused solely on this basis.

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Post by LondonApplicant » Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:58 pm

asim72 wrote: Why do you need clarity? What would that clarity do? Just a common sense approach will do here. If a certain person is totally unacceptable to UKBA, they will ask for further reference. The sky won't fall down. Application won't be refused solely on this basis.
I need clarity because there is very little clarity.

Clarity would be useful to all the individuals, like me, who do not know anyone who meets the most literal interpretation of the list of 'acceptable professions'.

Sure, I could submit an application asking a research scientist to be my referee, hoping that the profession of 'research scientist' meets the professional criterion. But if it doesn't, this will either delay my application (in case UKBA asks for a third reference) or cause it to fail (if even the third reference, for example from an architect, doesn't meet their criterion).

For example, I remember reading on a forum (I can no longer find the link) that someone was told by UKBA that a specific managerial position (sorry, can't remember which one) didn't qualify as 'bank official'. The lack of clarity means that someone's "common sense" interpretation was, in fact, not shared by UKBA officials. Are you 100% confident that your common sense interpretation will be the same as UKBA's? I am not.

Obtaining clarity makes the application process smoother, reduces delays and minimises the chances of rejection. What's wrong with that? The forum has plenty of (redundant) discussions on information which is easily available and explained on the UKBA website; why can't there be a topic on a requirement which UKBA does not define clearly?

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Post by asim72 » Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:12 pm

If UKBA were to publish a full wholesale list of each and every profession/person who could act as a referee, then the list would run into hundreds of pages if not thousands of pages.

Rather then winding yourself up, why not just list full details of the kind of people you want to act as your referees and see if people think they can act as a referee.

What kind of research scientist is he? does he work in a company, government or semi government organisation or a university. Or is he a freelancer. What are his qualifications? Is he a member of any professional body?

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Post by LondonApplicant » Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:20 pm

asim72 wrote:If UKBA were to publish a full wholesale list of each and every profession/person who could act as a referee, then the list would run into hundreds of pages if not thousands of pages.

Rather then winding yourself up, why not just list full details of the kind of people you want to act as your referees and see if people think they can act as a referee.

What kind of research scientist is he? does he work in a company, government or semi government organisation or a university. Or is he a freelancer. What are his qualifications? Is he a member of any professional body?
Biologist working as a research fellow at a prestigious (Russell Group) University; like all biologists working as research fellows, he has a PhD. He is not part of any professional body and has limited exposure to teaching: he sometimes supervises PhD students, but doesn't formally teach any course.

Your insight is greatly appreciated, but some kind of confirmation of what the UKBA actually thinks and does in these cases would be more valuable, for the reasons mentioned previously.

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Post by asim72 » Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:29 pm

Like I said, its common sense. There is not very hard and fast rule about referees. And as I already mentioned, if they start to list everyone, then the list would run into hundreds of pages.

I would say, a research scientist who teaches only sometimes is still a teacher. When the university accepts him as a person who can teach students, then he is a teacher. Now does it matter how many days or times in a year he teaches?
Under his position he can write research scientist/professor (or whatever he is).

Now a driving instructor is an acceptable referee. How many people he trains to drive a car is immaterial. He can teach 10 people everyday, or not teach even one person in a year. But he is still a driving instructor.

( I am pretty sure you share the same country of birth as mine, India).

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Post by LondonApplicant » Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:37 pm

asim72 wrote:Like I said, its common sense. There is not very hard and fast rule about referees. And as I already mentioned, if they start to list everyone, then the list would run into hundreds of pages.
I beg to differ. They could have struck a reasonable balance publishing a two or three-page list. Plus, loose definitions (what on Earth is a 'bank official'?) simply add to the confusion, in my opinion.
asim72 wrote: I would say, a research scientist who teaches only sometimes is still a teacher. When the university accepts him as a person who can teach students, then he is a teacher. Now does it matter how many days or times in a year he teaches?
Under his position he can write research scientist/professor (or whatever he is).
This is your interpretation, which UKBA may or may not share.
Also, it depends on the interpretation of 'teaching'. Does supervising PhD students qualify as teaching? Or is it necessary to formally teach a course?

I think both interpretations would be reasonable, but in the end what UKBA thinks is the only thing that matters.
asim72 wrote: ( I am pretty sure you share the same country of birth as mine, India).
No. Out of curiosity, why did you think so?

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Post by asim72 » Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:07 pm

Like I said, I am not a hyper who want such detail, I am not a british citizen yet, never bothered to apply for citizenship. Whenever I apply, I wont be doing such hard research or pondering over about referees. I live in multistory bulding, and my next door polish neibour got his reference from myself, and building's cleaner, who wrote his profession as "cleaning supervisor".

I think universities should start doing a Phd in "naturalisation referees". whoever a university can say is a teacher is a teacher. Whoever a bank says in an official, is an official. Whoever a company says is a manager, is a manager.

Now we do not need an act of parliament to describe work titles and jobs related to them.

Now, you can carry on doing your research and campaign. I suggest you go and see your MP and take up this matter. I am sure if you write to health secretary, he will take immediate action, as this matter is certainly going to cause mental health issues with prospective naturalisation applicants.

I think European Union should issue a directive if British government fails to do anything.

I think monster raving looney party will surely make it their election pledge during next general election. I am sure, and due to such public support and concern about this matter, the next general election will be won and lost on this issue.
:D :) :( :o :shock: :x :evil: :P :roll: :wink: :!: :idea: :arrow:

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Post by hsmp28122006 » Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:26 pm

asim72 wrote:Like I said, I am not a hyper who want such detail, I am not a british citizen yet, never bothered to apply for citizenship. Whenever I apply, I wont be doing such hard research or pondering over about referees. I live in multistory bulding, and my next door polish neibour got his reference from myself, and building's cleaner, who wrote his profession as "cleaning supervisor".

I think universities should start doing a Phd in "naturalisation referees". whoever a university can say is a teacher is a teacher. Whoever a bank says in an official, is an official. Whoever a company says is a manager, is a manager.

Now we do not need an act of parliament to describe work titles and jobs related to them.

Now, you can carry on doing your research and campaign. I suggest you go and see your MP and take up this matter. I am sure if you write to health secretary, he will take immediate action, as this matter is certainly going to cause mental health issues with prospective naturalisation applicants.

I think European Union should issue a directive if British government fails to do anything.

I think monster raving looney party will surely make it their election pledge during next general election. I am sure, and due to such public support and concern about this matter, the next general election will be won and lost on this issue.
:D :) :( :o :shock: :x :evil: :P :roll: :wink: :!: :idea: :arrow:
Asim if you have problem with this post, report to the moderator(s). Why are you ranting it here? It's quite rude and unprofessional. LondonApplicant is doing a right job by asking this question. I find his original post very relevant, which, if answered could help others. For instance: did home office call referees? If yes, what did they inquire about? etc etc. Valid questions.

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Post by LondonApplicant » Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:54 pm

Thank you for making this a sticky topic.

I have contacted UKBA asking for clarifications. I'll let you all know if I receive an answer.

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Post by downlights » Tue Jan 08, 2013 6:03 pm

I am a forum member and I strongly agree with the need for clarity in this area. There is an excellent example above on whether a university professor is acceptable as professional referee. If we could gather opinions and experience in this forum, clarity can be sought. That's the purpose isn't it?

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Hello! every one

Post by gj6ab5657 » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:31 pm

we should not bother about it, UKBA's referees list is enough to understand.

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Post by wpilr_nov12 » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:30 pm

This thread would have been of more value had the OP simply asked 'who did you use as your professional referee' instead of philosophising on the subject. Sometimes simple is better.
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Post by LondonApplicant » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:56 am

I obtained a reply from UKBA, which I paste below. I have highlighted in bold what I think are the most important parts.
Please refer to Annex A - List of acceptable professional persons in the link below:

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... er6/annexa

Note the list above is not an exhaustive list; therefore an individual’s profession may not be listed as acceptable although they may fall under the category of a person of any nationality who is of professional standing or a member of a professional association. If the caseworker is not satisfied with your referee they may request another.

Furthermore a referee who is a professional person should have had dealings with the applicant otherwise than in a professional capacity. However we would expect there to have been regular face-to-face contact between the applicant and his or her referees over the three-year period, such that both referees could confidently assert that the photograph submitted with the form was a true likeness of the person making the application.

Referees should also be prepared to inform us of anything known to them about the applicant that might cast doubt on his or her eligibility for British citizenship but it is accepted that referees will not necessarily be aware of any disqualifying factor or characteristic, particularly where their dealings with the applicant were solely in a professional capacity.

The requirement to nominate suitably-qualified referees is not a statutory one, and where it presents genuine difficulty for an applicant on account of his or her lifestyle or other circumstances this should be explained in the space provided for additional information on the application form.

Please note that as the onus is upon the individual to ensure that he/she satisfies the requirements set out in the guidance material that accompanies each and every application form, the Nationality Group is not able to give, indicate or advise upon the outcome of any such application prior to it being correctly submitted and being given full and careful consideration. Therefore, you are advised to read through the guide prior to submitting a future application.

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Post by hsmp28122006 » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:20 am

Very clear, useful, and elaborate response.

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Post by downlights » Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:17 pm

One of the accepted professions is 'engineer (with professional qualifications)'.

I can understand why the brackets, because in the UK the title engineer can be used to describe a wide range of professions and the UKBA is trying to be selective as to who can be an engineer referee here. However, it isn't listed anywhere which of the professional bodies is recognized, and if so, what grade of membership.

Typical membership structure of the UK Engineering Council is Associate Member (early careers) -> Chartered Member (with enough experience and passed some sort of test) -> Fellow Member (those with several achievements). In the FAQ of this forum it is mentioned that Chartered Member are acceptable.

For my child's MN1 registration, I have my friend (an Associate Member) acting as professional referee. Although the UKBA didn't contact him, the registration has been approved today.

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Can the following act as referee?

Post by fais11 » Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:36 am

Is Civil Enforcement officers ( parking attendant) ok?
What about post man?

Medu
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AN Form Section -5- Referees

Post by Medu » Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:10 am

I would appreciate an advice on the following.

Is a retired teacher considered as a professional referee, it is not clear on the professional list.

Many Thanks

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Re: AN Form Section -5- Referees

Post by Plum70 » Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:38 pm

Medu wrote:I would appreciate an advice on the following.

Is a retired teacher considered as a professional referee, it is not clear on the professional list.
I have a similar question about a retired social worker - can they act as a professional referee?

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Post by Ubuntua » Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:39 pm

I don't understand people these days.
I signed so many letters for people before without a question asked. Today i went to the Doctor to have my wife's BC referee signed . i was refused
I went to my local school who see us everyday and even went on trips with them many times they also refused
I went to local worship place they too refused
Only a kind optician agreed and did it on spot without any question and no fees to pay. Now i need to find a second one. why is it becoming so difficult? surely the government should change this stupid outdated system which serve no purposes whatsoever. I mean I remember many years ago my stupid local doctor decided to take £21 off me and then filled the form and stated that he knew me for only 9 months he checked the £21 properly but not the form he signed.

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Referees for Citizenship

Post by A_Thinker » Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:48 pm

Hi All,

I need a clarification on Referees for my Citizenship-

Is it ok if one of the referee's is a Software Professional with a Masters degree in software engineering and other who has degree in Bachelors of Engineering?

I will appreciate if some expert can clarify this.

Regards

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