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General discussion on CSI and Settled Status. Big issues for people on the EEA-Applications Routes

A section for posts relating to applications for Naturalisation or Registration as a British Citizen. Naturalisation

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Re: General discussion on CSI and Settled Status. Big issues for people on the EEA-Applications Routes

Post by dogcat » Sat Oct 10, 2020 1:14 pm

Alice109 wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:56 am
claudio87 wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 7:35 am
clearly caught by this because I have been here for 9 years, the first of which I was a student with no CSI
In my opinion 'caught by this' is for non-EEA people who can overstay and have an expired visa. For EEA citizens is proving 5 years lawful residence in any period of the 10 years. Since 15 of May 2020 the form is asking you to attach CSI for periods of financial inactivity in the 5 years back to the application date you can also mix match years
As you will have read in the nationality policy guidance- that this is not the case.

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Re: General discussion on CSI and Settled Status. Big issues for people on the EEA-Applications Routes

Post by Alice109 » Sat Oct 10, 2020 1:40 pm

dogcat wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 12:37 pm
How is it any different to what my previous post- I don't know.
It's because you said 'but not being in breach of immigration laws at any time during past 10 years' which should be 'complying with EU immigration law at any time during past 10 years'

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Re: General discussion on CSI and Settled Status. Big issues for people on the EEA-Applications Routes

Post by AnotherUUID » Sat Oct 10, 2020 1:45 pm

Alice109 wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:56 am
In my opinion 'caught by this' is for non-EEA people who can overstay and have an expired visa. For EEA citizens is proving 5 years lawful residence in any period of the 10 years. Since 15 of May 2020 the form is asking you to attach CSI for periods of financial inactivity in the 5 years back to the application date you can also mix match years
This is incorrect, please read the guidance and relevant information again more carefully. This might be the case "in your opinion" but the requirements are very clear, irrespective of what your opinion is.
Alice109 wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 1:40 pm
It's because you said 'but not being in breach of immigration laws at any time during past 10 years' which should be 'complying with EU immigration law at any time during past 10 years'
It doesn't matter. "Immigration laws" is an encompassing term and includes both non-EU/EEA and EEA/EU legislation depending on which category the applicant falls into and is subject to.

@dogcat is correct. And, unfortunately, when it comes to "automatic" acquisition of PR status based on treaty rights, the onus is still on the applicant to prove that they have indeed "automatically" acquired such status by being compliant with all the relevant laws (i.e. being a "qualified person"). This is the sole reason that holding DCPR was made a prerequisite to naturalisation back in, I believe, 2014 - to prove that the 5y prior to acquiring PR status were in compliance.

Unfortunately, since 2011 the HO also started to enforce the CSI requirement for DCPR applicants. As a result, those who were required to have had CSI for certain periods but have not had any would not been able to acquire DCPR (and hence PR status) for the claimed 5y period - they would have had to wait until they have full 5 years of compliance before applying, which may shift their date of acquiring PR status to a later date than the first 5y of residency in the UK. But it does not include any other period further back than those 5y.

And herein comes the issue with the 10y GCR requirement for immigration laws compliance - which applies to all. The new amendment regarding CSI now makes what used to be a "maybe" an explicit requirement for GCR, as @dogcat also excellently explained.

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Re: General discussion on CSI and Settled Status. Big issues for people on the EEA-Applications Routes

Post by Alice109 » Sat Oct 10, 2020 1:54 pm

AnotherUUID wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 1:45 pm
the issue with the 10y GCR requirement
The good character is 10 years regardless, It has always been there, nothing has changed, the only new thing is Settled Status that's why imho they updated the guideline. They didn't change the naturalisation regulations, they only added up a bit of clarity for Settled Status.Doing a favour even to who got permanent residence status before the 5 qualifying years, giving them a box to check and prove they got the status maybe 6 or 7 years ago.

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Re: General discussion on CSI and Settled Status. Big issues for people on the EEA-Applications Routes

Post by AnotherUUID » Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:22 pm

Alice109 wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 1:54 pm
The good character is 10 years regardless, It has always been there
This is true. Not "always" but for a considerable while. And so were the rules around breaches of immigration laws under which, in theory, not having had CSI when required should always have been considered as a breach. So this is a slight glimmer of hope.

Yet again, the fact that we have not seen people fail the GCR due to CSI prior to the update does not mean that the caseworker did not exercise discretion!
Alice109 wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 1:54 pm
they only added up a bit of clarity for Settled Status
No. The now explicitly mentioned CSI clauses apply to all, including DCPR applications, and this is very very very clear from the guidance! It does, however, impact EUSS applicants a bit more than DCPR applicants though.

This extra "bit of clarity" is exactly why this is so crucial which is the point I have been trying to get across, as this completely changes how applicants (and maybe caseworkers) see and interpret the GCR when it comes to immigration breaches due to CSI:

Before: Not having CSI (when required) in the last 10y should be seen as a breach of immigration laws, should be considered as part of the GCR assessment, and may have an impact on the outcome.

After: Not having CSI (when required) in the last 10y is definitely a breach of immigration laws, is definitely considered as part of the GCR assessment, and may have an impact on the outcome.

Once again, if it's not obvious from the "may have"s, it doesn't necessarily mean that there will be a significant impact on the outcome of applications - only time will tell. It also doesn't mean that the CSI requirement (when it comes to GCR) was never considered before. But it does clarify how caseworkers have handled or will handle applications.

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Re: General discussion on CSI and Settled Status. Big issues for people on the EEA-Applications Routes

Post by Alice109 » Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:27 pm

Would you mind showing me where you have read all those things on the Good Character requirement about EEA citizens? Please copy and paste and indicate the page of the guide thank you

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Re: General discussion on CSI and Settled Status. Big issues for people on the EEA-Applications Routes

Post by AnotherUUID » Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:48 pm

Good character: nationality policy guidance (2 October 2020), section "Immigration related issues".
Subsection: 'EEA nationals and their family members' wrote: People who are entitled to reside in the UK under the EEA Regulations 2016 do not require leave to enter or remain.

In assessing whether a person has complied with immigration requirements over the previous 10 years, you must take into account whether they were subject to the EEA Regulations 2016 or the Immigration Act 1971 and whether they complied with the relevant requirements.
...
Subsection: 'Comprehensive sickness insurance' wrote: Comprehensive Sickness Insurance (CSI) is a legal requirement for EEA and Swiss students, self-sufficient persons and their family members who are residing in the UK with them.

If a person did not have CSI, you must consider why they did not have it. Where a person has been granted ILR under the EUSS but has been in breach of the EEA Regulations 2016 due to a lack of CSI you must consider whether it is appropriate to exercise discretion in their favour.
...
The subsection on CSI is not a subsection of that for EUSS applicants, it applies to all. The highlighted sentence above regarding the consideration of why an applicant did not have CSI also applies to all, not just EUSS applicants. The clarification re EUSS and discretion follows after.

You can also look up the exact "immigration laws" regarding EEA nationals and their family members under the Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2016 - this hasn't changed.

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Re: General discussion on CSI and Settled Status. Big issues for people on the EEA-Applications Routes

Post by AnotherUUID » Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:56 pm

AnotherUUID wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:48 pm
2 October 2020
Sorry, this was meant to read 30 September 2020 - I instead typed the date from the web page, not the one from the document.

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Re: General discussion on CSI and Settled Status. Big issues for people on the EEA-Applications Routes

Post by Alice109 » Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:58 pm

Excuse mee but that doesn't say what you said
In assessing whether a person has complied with immigration requirements over the previous 10 years, you must take into account whether they were subject to the EEA Regulations 2016 or the Immigration Act 1971 and whether they complied with the relevant requirements.
This doesn't mean 'when' it mean is this person a EEA citizen? or maybe who knows an NON EEA spouse of the EEA citizen? Was this person exercising EEA rights ?
If a person did not have CSI, you must consider why they did not have it. Where a person has been granted ILR under the EUSS but has been in breach of the EEA Regulations 2016 due to a lack of CSI you must consider whether it is appropriate to exercise discretion in their favour.
this doesn't mean 10 years CSI this mean you need to have CSI if you are not financially active in any of the 5 years residency under the EU regulations
Anyway...

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Re: General discussion on CSI and Settled Status. Big issues for people on the EEA-Applications Routes

Post by Alice109 » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:03 pm

AnotherUUID wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:48 pm
Good character: nationality policy guidance (2 October 2020), section "Immigration related issues".
Subsection: 'EEA nationals and their family members' wrote: People who are entitled to reside in the UK under the EEA Regulations 2016 do not require leave to enter or remain.

In assessing whether a person has complied with immigration requirements over the previous 10 years, you must take into account whether they were subject to the EEA Regulations 2016 or the Immigration Act 1971 and whether they complied with the relevant requirements.
...
Subsection: 'Comprehensive sickness insurance' wrote: Comprehensive Sickness Insurance (CSI) is a legal requirement for EEA and Swiss students, self-sufficient persons and their family members who are residing in the UK with them.

If a person did not have CSI, you must consider why they did not have it. Where a person has been granted ILR under the EUSS but has been in breach of the EEA Regulations 2016 due to a lack of CSI you must consider whether it is appropriate to exercise discretion in their favour.
...
This mean to make sure the person is EEA and he was actually exercising treaty rights and check if they have a PR or can prove permanent residence
The second doesn't mean 10 years CSI!
It doesn't actually say what you said

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Re: General discussion on CSI and Settled Status. Big issues for people on the EEA-Applications Routes

Post by AnotherUUID » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:36 pm

Alice109 wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:58 pm
you need to have CSI if you are not financially active
This is obvious to everyone as CSI only applies for periods spent as student or self-sufficient. It really needs no explicit mention! Obviously if the applicant has been employed for the entire duration of their stay prior to being settled they will have no need to prove they held valid CSI. I did not mention this as it's plain obvious, though I always very clearly stated "where applicable" for this very reason.
Alice109 wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:58 pm
... This doesn't mean 'when' ...
Alice109 wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:03 pm
The second doesn't mean 10 years CSI!
Alice109 wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:58 pm
... this doesn't mean 10 years CSI ...
Have you even read the GCR guidance at all? Let me remind you:
Section 'Non-compliance with immigration requirements' wrote: An application will normally be refused if, within the previous 10 years (before the date of decision), the person has not complied with immigration requirements, including having:
  • failed to comply with (breached) conditions imposed under the Immigration Acts, for example:
    • accessed public funds when prohibited from doing so
    • worked in the UK without permission to do so
    • studied in the UK in contravention of any restrictions on studying
    • failed, without reasonable excuse, to report when required to do so
  • remained in the UK after their leave, including when leave extended by virtue of section 3C or 3D of the Immigration Act 1971 has expired. See: Overstaying
  • failed to comply with the requirements of the EEA Regulations 2016
You do realise that the CSI requirement (for periods spent as a student or self-sufficient) is part of the EEA Regulations Act 2016 that I previously pointed you to, right?

This last bullet point was also added as part of the new update on GCR guidance and was not present in the previous version from 14 January 2019 (page 46).

So yes, one should be at least somewhat concerned if they had periods spent as student or self-employed without CSI and wish to rely on the use of discretion on part of the caseworker! If an applicant has not had any periods of being a student or self-sufficient in the last up to 10y prior to their application, this update obviously does not affect them!

I'm not going to argue further on this matter as I fail to see how you justify your points. Like everybody else here, you are welcome to make whatever conclusions you wish.

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Re: General discussion on CSI and Settled Status. Big issues for people on the EEA-Applications Routes

Post by Alice109 » Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:17 pm

EEA citizens do not require visa that is for non EEA

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Re: General discussion on CSI and Settled Status. Big issues for people on the EEA-Applications Routes

Post by AnotherUUID » Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:44 pm

Alice109 wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:17 pm
EEA citizens do not require visa that is for non EEA
No. The above also includes EU/EEA citizens!

The fact that EEA citizens do not need a visa as a result of EU Freedom of Movement, along with other privileges they enjoy, does not mean they are not subject to immigration rules! These rules as well as the freedoms enjoyed by EEA citizens are defined in the EEA Regulations Act! This act is, in fact, specifically for EEA citizens and their family members!

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Re: General discussion on CSI and Settled Status. Big issues for people on the EEA-Applications Routes

Post by Alice109 » Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:41 pm

AnotherUUID wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:44 pm
Alice109 wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:17 pm
EEA citizens do not require visa that is for non EEA
No. The above also includes EU/EEA citizens!

The fact that EEA citizens do not need a visa as a result of EU Freedom of Movement, along with other privileges they enjoy, does not mean they are not subject to immigration rules! These rules as well as the freedoms enjoyed by EEA citizens are defined in the EEA Regulations Act! This act is, in fact, specifically for EEA citizens and their family members!
this is the last, it says
WITHIN the previous 10 year
ailed to comply with the requirements of the EEA Regulations 2016 = you need to start exercising treaty rights, there's no visa, no passport stamps, no overstaying, never unlawful staying
it's my last you need to read those documents word by word that's why we are all shattered

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Re: General discussion on CSI and Settled Status. Big issues for people on the EEA-Applications Routes

Post by dogcat » Sat Oct 10, 2020 7:56 pm

Well, I, for one, have read the policy guidance and other documents pertaining to a topic of naturalisation 'word by word' ( as generally, that's how the process of reading works ) a good fews times now.


Breach of immigration 'laws' causes the residence to be unlawful.

Shocking as it may be :shock: :D but it is possible for EEA citizens to break immigration laws (and many do) therefore, such thing as 'unlawful residence' when it comes to EEA citizens does exist.
Non exercising treaty rights (if /when required to do so )= 'unlawful staying ' as you put it.

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Re: General discussion on CSI and Settled Status. Big issues for people on the EEA-Applications Routes

Post by 918 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:55 pm

Hi, I would wonder to hear if you met with any application for naturalisation through settled status being rejected due to lack of CSI in the case when the applicant was a student or self-sufficient person. We are all scared now, but to be honest, does it really happen? I read a number of recent stories from Q2 and Q3 of 2020 and in most cases, discretion was applied.

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Re: General discussion on CSI and Settled Status. Big issues for people on the EEA-Applications Routes

Post by alterhase58 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:40 pm

918 wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:55 pm
Hi, I would wonder to hear if you met with any application for naturalisation through settled status being rejected due to lack of CSI in the case when the applicant was a student or self-sufficient person. We are all scared now, but to be honest, does it really happen? I read a number of recent stories from Q2 and Q3 of 2020 and in most cases, discretion was applied.
So far we haven't seen any reports of applications rejected due to CSI issues. As you point out this is a subject where it appears discretion is being applied - as per caseworker guidance issued.
This is just my opinion as a member of this forum and does not constitute immigration advice.
Please do not send me private messages asking for advice.

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Re: General discussion on CSI and Settled Status. Big issues for people on the EEA-Applications Routes

Post by hazemA » Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:22 am

out of interest how long do you need to be out of work for to require csi? for example if you started work with one company between july and december went travelling for 2 months and then resumed work with another company between February and may. did you need csi for that year as an EEA national even though the time off work was spent outside the uk... I can't find any information online about timings for this

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Re: General discussion on CSI and Settled Status. Big issues for people on the EEA-Applications Routes

Post by dogcat » Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:26 am

It's usually 6 months (but you'd probably have to be exercising TR in a capacity of a jobseeker)
Ohh and CSI isn't required for time spent not in the UK.

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Re: General discussion on CSI and Settled Status. Big issues for people on the EEA-Applications Routes

Post by Alena004 » Tue Nov 10, 2020 7:46 pm

Hey guys,
please can I have your opinion, I keep reading those answers and I'm still not sure I understand this fully.

I moved to UK in 2006, was studying and self employed till 2012. I have paid NI contributions during this time.

From 2012 till 2014 I was self sufficient, I was in durable relationship and only paid for the health insurance in the Czech Republic, as I always used to prefer going back home to have medical checks there, or I went to private doctor in the UK, I have not used NHS during this time.

I have been employed from 2014 till last month when I was made redundant.

I have been given ILR in April 2019.

I have got a few questions and I will appreciate if you know the answers:

I wanna apply for BC, I wonder what would be the best thing to write as a reason for not paying CSI?

Im thinking to say that I was paying insurance in the Czech Republic as I didnt want to burden healthcare in the UK.. and when I needed health care I went private.
Does that sound reasonable?

I can see that HO can apply discretion, do you think that as I have worked and paid taxes etc 5 years prior and 6 years after being self sufficient, they would be happy with just that?

I am planning to submit my BC online, will I have to send off supporting documents or just scan them over? I am worried to send my UNI diploma in a post in case it goes missing.

Also as I am now without a job, and I am thinking to be "self sufficient"again until I find another job, do I have to pay CSI? Or am I exempted as I have the settled status?

Do you have to pay CSI when on JSA and does that affect your BC application? Have any of you been on JSA? I wonder how much of evidence do they require to proof you are looking for a job.

Lastly can you travel after you have submitted application for the BC? I have already spent 90 days outside of the UK in last 12 months.

Apologies for having so many questions. I hope you can help me clear my head.
Thank you

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Re: General discussion on CSI and Settled Status. Big issues for people on the EEA-Applications Routes

Post by CR001 » Tue Nov 10, 2020 7:49 pm

Alena004 wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 7:46 pm
Hey guys,
please can I have your opinion, I keep reading those answers and I'm still not sure I understand this fully.

I moved to UK in 2006, was studying and self employed till 2012. I have paid NI contributions during this time.

From 2012 till 2014 I was self sufficient, I was in durable relationship and only paid for the health insurance in the Czech Republic, as I always used to prefer going back home to have medical checks there, or I went to private doctor in the UK, I have not used NHS during this time.

I have been employed from 2014 till last month when I was made redundant.

I have been given ILR in April 2019.

I have got a few questions and I will appreciate if you know the answers:

I wanna apply for BC, I wonder what would be the best thing to write as a reason for not paying CSI?

Im thinking to say that I was paying insurance in the Czech Republic as I didnt want to burden healthcare in the UK.. and when I needed health care I went private.
Does that sound reasonable?

I can see that HO can apply discretion, do you think that as I have worked and paid taxes etc 5 years prior and 6 years after being self sufficient, they would be happy with just that?

I am planning to submit my BC online, will I have to send off supporting documents or just scan them over? I am worried to send my UNI diploma in a post in case it goes missing.

Also as I am now without a job, and I am thinking to be "self sufficient"again until I find another job, do I have to pay CSI? Or am I exempted as I have the settled status?

Do you have to pay CSI when on JSA and does that affect your BC application? Have any of you been on JSA? I wonder how much of evidence do they require to proof you are looking for a job.

Lastly can you travel after you have submitted application for the BC? I have already spent 90 days outside of the UK in last 12 months.

Apologies for having so many questions. I hope you can help me clear my head.
Thank you
This is NOT the correct topic or sub forum for British citizenship questions!!!!

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Re: General discussion on CSI and Settled Status. Big issues for people on the EEA-Applications Routes

Post by Igy » Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:18 pm

Hi everyone,
naturalisation after settled status here.
Very confused about this CSI.
I am uploading all my documents and I am waiting to have my appointment with UKVCAS in mid december.
Do emails that prove that I was being interviewed for a job and looking for work after University and before having employement are enough to show I was looking for work? ( and therefore I am covered by national insurance?)
I a need to cover around 15 days of time.
Thank you very much in advance!

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Re: General discussion on CSI and Settled Status. Big issues for people on the EEA-Applications Routes

Post by dogcat » Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:30 pm

If its only 15 days, then I'd say that's not to worry about.
CSI becomes relevant if we're talking months, or more like half a year.

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Re: General discussion on CSI and Settled Status. Big issues for people on the EEA-Applications Routes

Post by Igy » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:10 am

dogcat wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:30 pm
If its only 15 days, then I'd say that's not to worry about.
CSI becomes relevant if we're talking months, or more like half a year.
Cheers dogcat!
I have also an EHIC from UK and from my Country too for my University period.
I'll put everything in my application but some documents are not in English.
Fingers crossed, I think this is a very weird loophole and I have no clue how they'll judge this.

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Re: General discussion on CSI and Settled Status. Big issues for people on the EEA-Applications Routes

Post by CULLINAN » Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:52 pm

Personal opinion only, not to be mistaken for legal advice. Please DO NOT PM me for immigration advice. Love for All, Hatred for None.

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