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From 12/11 PR Document Required for Citizenship Application

A section for posts relating to applications for Naturalisation or Registration as a British Citizen. Naturalisation

Moderators: Casa, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, meself2, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, archigabe, push, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, zimba, vinny

Miko7
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Re: From 12/11 PR Document Required for Citizenship Applicat

Post by Miko7 » Wed Mar 02, 2016 4:25 pm

Hi everyone,
I have 2 simple questions and it will sound a bit silly to some of you here but important questions for most of us. I live and work in England for last 9 years and can provide P60s etc and decided to finally apply for BC. After all the recent changes they have made I am not sure if I can apply for citizenship without Permanent residence card? I know that last year you had that option if you are EEA national but as I can read from above it sounds like you have to first apply for PR card now. Citizens Advice Bureau was not able to confirm and have not received a clear answer from anyone else :(

If you need PR Card, how quickly you can apply for citizenship after receiving it? What I can see from here, there is no straight answer for this. Or do I have to wait for whole 12 months after receiving/issue PR Card? Does it mean that there is a chance to apply for citizenship e.g. a week after receiving PR Card? :?:

I would be very grateful if someone could explain in simple words.

Many thanks!

Scott

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Re: From 12/11 PR Document Required for Citizenship Applicat

Post by noajthan » Wed Mar 02, 2016 4:44 pm

Miko7 wrote:Hi everyone,
I have 2 simple questions and it will sound a bit silly to some of you here but important questions for most of us. I live and work in England for last 9 years and can provide P60s etc and decided to finally apply for BC. After all the recent changes they have made I am not sure if I can apply for citizenship without Permanent residence card? I know that last year you had that option if you are EEA national but as I can read from above it sounds like you have to first apply for PR card now. Citizens Advice Bureau was not able to confirm and have not received a clear answer from anyone else :(

If you need PR Card, how quickly you can apply for citizenship after receiving it? What I can see from here, there is no straight answer for this. Or do I have to wait for whole 12 months after receiving/issue PR Card? Does it mean that there is a chance to apply for citizenship e.g. a week after receiving PR Card? :?:

I would be very grateful if someone could explain in simple words.

Many thanks!

Scott
The only silly questions are the ones you don't ask - and they usually catch you out later.

Yes, any EEA national (or family dependent) applying for the privilege of citizenship now has to submit a confirmation of PR card;
it is one of the mandatory requirements for naturalisation.

Having got your PR card when to shoot for citizenship depends.
If you have the joy of being married to a BC there is no need to wait; you can apply to naturalise as soon as all other requirements for citizenship have been/can be met.

If not married to a BC you have to be free from immigration time restrictions for 12 months.
That means having PR status for 12 months.
But it does not necessarily mean holding the PR card for 12 months!

For example, if you acquired PR sometime in the past (over a year ago) but only recently got round to applying for a PR card then there is no need to wait any more.
That is because the PR status is over a year old. (Only the card is new).

On the other hand, if you only just acquired PR and then got your card you will have to wait 12 months before applying to naturalise.

Apologies, I can't speak your language (& even if I could its not allowed on this Board) so I hope that still makes it all a little clearer.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

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Re: From 12/11 PR Document Required for Citizenship Applicat

Post by nataliedelmar » Tue Mar 15, 2016 2:06 pm

Hi all,



I know this has been discussed here already, but I just called UKVI and the answer I received was very confusing.



Basically, what they said was that if you’ve been exercising Treaty Rights for 6+ years, once you’ve got your document, certifying permanent residence, you can apply for Naturalisation straight away. However (and this is the confusing bit), as the document proves only 5 years, you would have to (again) prove the last 6 years, or at least the 1 year before the 5 years covered by the permanent residence card.



In my case, I’ve been exercising Treaty Rights for over 9 years and we proved these 9 years when applying for a permanent card. I asked if this would be on their system, as I really don’t see a point to prove same period twice, but they said that they don’t hold this data, so I’ll need to prove it again.



Really frustrating and misleading.

Does anyone here knows anything about it at all (or have applied recently on the same terms)?



Thanks!

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Re: From 12/11 PR Document Required for Citizenship Applicat

Post by Richard W » Tue Mar 15, 2016 7:41 pm

noajthan wrote: Yes, any EEA national (or family dependent) applying for the privilege of citizenship now has to submit a confirmation of PR card; it is one of the mandatory requirements for naturalisation.
Sorry to be pedantic, but ILR is an acceptable alternative. (I believe RoA is also an alternative.) There are a few non-British EEA nationals who have indefinite leave to remain but no PR cards, and probably even some who have ILR but not permanent residence.

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Re: From 12/11 PR Document Required for Citizenship Applicat

Post by ohara » Wed Mar 16, 2016 11:12 am

nataliedelmar wrote: Basically, what they said was that if you’ve been exercising Treaty Rights for 6+ years, once you’ve got your document, certifying permanent residence, you can apply for Naturalisation straight away. However (and this is the confusing bit), as the document proves only 5 years, you would have to (again) prove the last 6 years, or at least the 1 year before the 5 years covered by the permanent residence card.

In my case, I’ve been exercising Treaty Rights for over 9 years and we proved these 9 years when applying for a permanent card. I asked if this would be on their system, as I really don’t see a point to prove same period twice, but they said that they don’t hold this data, so I’ll need to prove it again.
HO telephone helpline is notoriously unreliable and unfortunately cannot be held liable for decisions made by people acting on their 'advice'

Technically you only need to exercise treaty rights for 5 years, as once you gain PR, your economic activity is immaterial afterwards. If you exercised treaty rights continuously from 2009-2014, you can apply for the DCPR and then immediately for naturalisation once you receive it. HO certainly do hold the date that they determine you acquired PR on their computer system. They also don't just guess, and will go to some lengths to make sure they get the correct date.

I've been in the UK since 1991 and exercising treaty rights since June 2007 (as a worker). I knew I only needed to show evidence of a 5 year period ending at least 12 months ago so I could apply for naturalisation immediately. I did put the details of my education on the EEA(PR) form but as I did not have comprehensive sickness insurance, I knew that period wouldn't count so I specifically wrote in the additional information section that I was applying on the basis of being a worker from 2009-2014.

My DCPR came through with no problem. I booked an NCS appointment to submit my AN form, and while I was there the adviser said she was unsure if I met the 12 months free of immigration time restrictions requirement as my DCPR issue date was 22nd January 2016 (even though I told her the issue date is irrelevant). She phoned HO through their hotline and the guy on the other end said the date they hold in their computer system for my permanent residence is June 2012. So clearly I have been free of immigration time restrictions for over 3 years :roll:

This is interesting because even though I only submitted evidence of working from 2009-2014, HO have actually investigated and noted that I began exercising treaty rights in June 2007 (when I started working) and correctly noted my PR date as 5 years from then (June 2012). I had to provide payslips for the last 4 years along with my AN form to prove that I was still resident in the UK.

Stefan7
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Re: From 12/11 PR Document Required for Citizenship Applicat

Post by Stefan7 » Sun Mar 20, 2016 1:42 pm

Hello
I think this article explains it nicely. I found it very helpful.

https://www.freemovement.org.uk/eu-nati ... lications/

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Re: From 12/11 PR Document Required for Citizenship Applicat

Post by kankerot » Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:05 pm

My wife recieved ILR in 2009 and it was a stamp/ sheet in her passport. For her Naturalisation application at the NCS all they asked was to point out where it was in her passport, no other reference was made for a document confirming this.

Does this mean my wife British Citizenship application will be declined? If so then what is the point of the check and send service if they don't pick up this point?

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Re: From 12/11 PR Document Required for Citizenship Applicat

Post by CR001 » Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:11 pm

kankerot wrote:My wife recieved ILR in 2009 and it was a stamp/ sheet in her passport. For her Naturalisation application at the NCS all they asked was to point out where it was in her passport, no other reference was made for a document confirming this.

Does this mean my wife British Citizenship application will be declined? If so then what is the point of the check and send service if they don't pick up this point?
Unless either you or your spouse are EU citizens (not British), this topic/thread is not relevant to you. ILR in her passport is fine. PR is different in that it is though the EEA/EU Route.
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natienka
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Re: From 12/11 PR Document Required for Citizenship Applicat

Post by natienka » Sat May 14, 2016 11:14 am

ohara This is very helpful. What is this magical hotline that they called to find out when that PR was actually given to you? I guess I cannot call it?

I applied, and in my additional cover letter stated that I am applying for years 2010-2014, even though I've submitted selected documents from 2007 until 2016 to show continuous residence. How do I know now which date would have been marked as date of PR? It would be ideal to know before making the NCS appointment especially that I think the specialists at my local office aren't sure this is true (that you can have DCPR for less than 12 months)...

dinushka I think you should ask the questions on a different post, as this one is for EEA nationals.

If you find the relevant topic you're more likely to get a reply.

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Re: From 12/11 PR Document Required for Citizenship Applicat

Post by noajthan » Sat May 14, 2016 11:44 am

Richard W wrote:
noajthan wrote: Yes, any EEA national (or family dependent) applying for the privilege of citizenship now has to submit a confirmation of PR card; it is one of the mandatory requirements for naturalisation.
Sorry to be pedantic, but ILR is an acceptable alternative. (I believe RoA is also an alternative.) There are a few non-British EEA nationals who have indefinite leave to remain but no PR cards, and probably even some who have ILR but not permanent residence.
My statements in this topic are in context of topic which is EU migration route & regulations.

http://www.immigrationboards.com/britis ... l#p1263199
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

noajthan
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Re: From 12/11 PR Document Required for Citizenship Applicat

Post by noajthan » Sat May 14, 2016 11:56 am

This topic is about the recent rule change as intimated by the topic title.

It will help to keep this topic high-value if members can refrain from posting questions about UK migration route &/or general PR & EU route questions.

Simply create a new topic (in appropriate sub-forum) for such questions.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

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Re: From 12/11 PR Document Required for Citizenship Applicat

Post by ohara » Sat May 14, 2016 4:24 pm

natienka wrote:ohara This is very helpful. What is this magical hotline that they called to find out when that PR was actually given to you? I guess I cannot call it?
No you can't. It's a regional service line for NCS which is run by UKVI. It doesn't accept public calls and as such there is no queue, they answer immediately :shock:

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Re: From 12/11 PR Document Required for Citizenship Applicat

Post by natienka » Sat May 14, 2016 5:00 pm

ohara wrote:
natienka wrote:ohara This is very helpful. What is this magical hotline that they called to find out when that PR was actually given to you? I guess I cannot call it?
No you can't. It's a regional service line for NCS which is run by UKVI. It doesn't accept public calls and as such there is no queue, they answer immediately :shock:
Well at least you know there and then in the appointment... but what if they say that e.g. they've deemed me as having received PR only yesterday (for example), I guess that would mean I would lose the appointment cost and have to wait for whenever those 12 months pass, and go for an appointment again?

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Re: From 12/11 PR Document Required for Citizenship Applicat

Post by ohara » Sat May 14, 2016 8:24 pm

natienka wrote:Well at least you know there and then in the appointment... but what if they say that e.g. they've deemed me as having received PR only yesterday (for example), I guess that would mean I would lose the appointment cost and have to wait for whenever those 12 months pass, and go for an appointment again?
Yes, and that would be unfortunate if it did happen, but on the bright side you'd be losing £60 instead of £1236.

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Re: From 12/11 PR Document Required for Citizenship Applicat

Post by michaldob » Mon May 16, 2016 8:33 am

I am not sure I am reading this correctly..

Let's say I apply for an EEA PR card on the 01/05/2016 and get the card on the 01/08/2016.
I can then apply for Naturalisation straight away given I will be able to prove that I was exercising Treaty Rights from 01/05/2010 to 01/05/2011 - "the extra year"? Is this correct?

Years 01/05/2011 - 01/05/2016 would be covered by the PR itself.

This seems to be in-line with AN-Booklet information:
"If you apply for Permanent Residence on 1st December 2015 and want to apply for
Citizenship once that application is decided, you should send evidence that shows you
were exercising Treaty rights as a qualified person or family member from 1 December
2009 to 1 December 2014."

Can someone shed some more light on this?

ohara
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Re: From 12/11 PR Document Required for Citizenship Applicat

Post by ohara » Mon May 16, 2016 9:14 am

You are correct. The PR document/card only confirms you have PR, it does not grant or confer it. EEA permanent residence documentation is optional, but regardless you will still hold the status.

I have in fact had PR since 2012 but only applied for and got a PR document in 2016, and I applied for naturalisation almost immediately after getting it. My timeline:
Permanent residence acquired on 01/06/12

Trinity College B1 SELT passed on 26/01/16

Document certifying PR received on 11/02/16

Life in the UK test passed on 02/03/16

Naturalisation application submitted on 09/03/16

Biometric information enrolled on 23/03/16

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Re: From 12/11 PR Document Required for Citizenship Applicat

Post by michaldob » Mon May 16, 2016 12:53 pm

Thank you for your response.

Your timeline specifies 01/06/12 as a date of when PR was obtained. Is this date something that the HO specified when they sent you the PR Card?

When applying for a PR card did you send the documentation to confirm that you have had indeed acquired PR status on that date? Or did you just send the documents for the "last 5 years"?

The reason I am asking is that it seems that some users are reporting some "hidden" date that HO applies to EEA PR applications which apparently counts as the start date for the PR status. I know this sounds weird but you newer know with HO :)

Again, from the official HO guidance it would seem to me that if I worked in the UK (all WRS is in order) since Aug 2007 I have acquired PR status in Aug 2012. Going back to my previous example I would need to send documents confirming employment and all other stuff for 2010 which should do the trick and satisfy the HO regarding the residence time - 2010 + PR card (2011 - 2016). Is that right?

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Re: From 12/11 PR Document Required for Citizenship Applicat

Post by natienka » Mon May 16, 2016 2:27 pm

michaldob wrote:Thank you for your response.

Your timeline specifies 01/06/12 as a date of when PR was obtained. Is this date something that the HO specified when they sent you the PR Card?

When applying for a PR card did you send the documentation to confirm that you have had indeed acquired PR status on that date? Or did you just send the documents for the "last 5 years"?

The reason I am asking is that it seems that some users are reporting some "hidden" date that HO applies to EEA PR applications which apparently counts as the start date for the PR status. I know this sounds weird but you newer know with HO :)

Again, from the official HO guidance it would seem to me that if I worked in the UK (all WRS is in order) since Aug 2007 I have acquired PR status in Aug 2012. Going back to my previous example I would need to send documents confirming employment and all other stuff for 2010 which should do the trick and satisfy the HO regarding the residence time - 2010 + PR card (2011 - 2016). Is that right?
HO unfortunately doesn't specify the date you received PR on the document certifying PR. This means you don't know the actual date they've noted in the system, until you then make an appointment with NCS when applying for citizenship.

Do NOT send full documents for the last five years, but rather for a 5-year period ending AT LEAST 12 months ago. This way when you receive a DCPR the documentation would have covered the necessary period of 5 years + 12 months.

I sent full set of mine for years 2010-14, and selected individual documents from 2008, 9, 15 and 16.

In an additional cover letter I also wrote that I'm attaching a full set of docs for years 2010-14.

I hope that helps!

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Re: From 12/11 PR Document Required for Citizenship Applicat

Post by ohara » Wed May 18, 2016 4:33 pm

michaldob wrote:Thank you for your response.

Your timeline specifies 01/06/12 as a date of when PR was obtained. Is this date something that the HO specified when they sent you the PR Card?

When applying for a PR card did you send the documentation to confirm that you have had indeed acquired PR status on that date? Or did you just send the documents for the "last 5 years"?

The reason I am asking is that it seems that some users are reporting some "hidden" date that HO applies to EEA PR applications which apparently counts as the start date for the PR status. I know this sounds weird but you newer know with HO :)

Again, from the official HO guidance it would seem to me that if I worked in the UK (all WRS is in order) since Aug 2007 I have acquired PR status in Aug 2012. Going back to my previous example I would need to send documents confirming employment and all other stuff for 2010 which should do the trick and satisfy the HO regarding the residence time - 2010 + PR card (2011 - 2016). Is that right?
The date of issue of the card was something like 22/01/16. I made a subject access request a week after I got the card, but I ended up having my NCS appointment before the results came back (to beat the fee increase). While I was at NCS the lady made a phone call and found that the date I acquired PR was deemed to be 01/06/2012.

A few weeks after my NCS appointment the SAR response came through and sure enough there it was - the date 01/06/2012.

Funnily enough when I applied for the PR card, I sent evidence for 2009-2014. However, UKVI seemed to have ignored everything other than the letter from my employer stating that I had worked there since 01/06/2007, which makes sense as I acquired PR exactly 5 years later.

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Re: From 12/11 PR Document Required for Citizenship Applicat

Post by dapto10 » Thu May 19, 2016 1:01 pm

ohara wrote:While I was at NCS the lady made a phone call and found that the date I acquired PR was deemed to be 01/06/2012.

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Re: From 12/11 PR Document Required for Citizenship Applicat

Post by dapto10 » Thu May 19, 2016 1:03 pm

ohara wrote:While I was at NCS the lady made a phone call and found that the date I acquired PR was deemed to be 01/06/2012.
This is interesting. I hear that many NCS offices are happy to help EEA nationals with checking their actual date of PR with the HO.

I did try to book my NCS appointment with my council and a rather rude lady told me she can't book me now as my DCPR issue date is less than a year ago. I tried very politely to explain what's the situation with the new rules (whereby the HO asks for a PR card but the actual date is not the date of issue) and she simply said they can't make such checks with the Home Office.

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Re: From 12/11 PR Document Required for Citizenship Applicat

Post by Noetic » Thu May 19, 2016 3:26 pm

dapto10 wrote:This is interesting. I hear that many NCS offices are happy to help EEA nationals with checking their actual date of PR with the HO.

I did try to book my NCS appointment with my council and a rather rude lady told me she can't book me now as my DCPR issue date is less than a year ago. I tried very politely to explain what's the situation with the new rules (whereby the HO asks for a PR card but the actual date is not the date of issue) and she simply said they can't make such checks with the Home Office.
I had a similar experience when asking for confirmation that our nearest NCS can do this check, as I don't think HO will respond to my SAR in time.

Not that it matters since I have evidence of exercising treaty rights since late 2001 and have held my PR card for just over 2 years, but still, a bit of consistency would be nice!

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Re: From 12/11 PR Document Required for Citizenship Applicat

Post by natienka » Thu May 19, 2016 4:04 pm

Yes, it's completely dependent on people in councils, which is why I signed up for an appointment in the neighbouring council rather than my own because people there were much more helpful / knowledgeable! I'd suggest trying a few different offices for size - my first approach was to send a few query e-mails to see who was most helpful.

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Re: From 12/11 PR Document Required for Citizenship Applicat

Post by ohara » Thu May 19, 2016 5:54 pm

dapto10 wrote:
ohara wrote:While I was at NCS the lady made a phone call and found that the date I acquired PR was deemed to be 01/06/2012.
This is interesting. I hear that many NCS offices are happy to help EEA nationals with checking their actual date of PR with the HO.

I did try to book my NCS appointment with my council and a rather rude lady told me she can't book me now as my DCPR issue date is less than a year ago. I tried very politely to explain what's the situation with the new rules (whereby the HO asks for a PR card but the actual date is not the date of issue) and she simply said they can't make such checks with the Home Office.
I suggest printing this off: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/128 ... Cards.docx

Then insisting NCS let you book your appointment, and show it to them when you get there. When they make the call, they will soon realise they are wrong.

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Re: From 12/11 PR Document Required for Citizenship Applicat

Post by dapto10 » Fri May 20, 2016 12:11 am

Thank you for being so helpful on this forum, Ohara!

Yeah, that's what I tried to explain to her. I knew about this letter, had it printed actually and read her the name of the HO officer who had responded to the FOI but the NCS representative (who was an immigrant herself, judging by her strong foreign accent) said they don't do such checks, they're simply a 'checking' service and if I don't meet the eligibility criteria which in her view include the issue date of my DCPR, I'm basically wasting my time. I even tried to call again, hoping the call will be answered by another agent but they played me an automated message instead saying something in the lines of 'if you have an enquiry about your citizenship application, please call the Home Office helpline'. This message didn't play the first time around.

The idea given by the other member is very good. I'll try another council. Hopefully they'll be more friendly and helpful.

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