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Involvement in an incident - implication on BC application

A section for posts relating to applications for Naturalisation or Registration as a British Citizen. Naturalisation

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nilesha
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Involvement in an incident - implication on BC application

Post by nilesha » Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:12 pm

Hello,

Without knowing the law around it (and any background knowledge even that such law existed) we got involved in an incident and I am worried how this will impact my BC application. Let me explain this:

My wife had to to pick-up baby food from town in urgency and left my two children (6 yrs old and 1 year old) at home. The younger child was sleeping and the elder one on phone always speaking to my wife whilst she went into the town. My wife was back in less than 15-20 mins and just before approaching my home street, she disconnected the phone. Meanwhile a delivery man rang to whom my elder child attended and he noticed that children were alone in the home and made a police complaint. All this within elapsed time of 20 minutes.

When a policeman arrived (10-15 mins later) my wife was at home already and being enquired by a policeman for the first time, she was nervous but she explained the situation. Although the policeman seemed convinced (looking at the Boot's baby food receipt and the time of the printed receipt also in line), he said formal police complaint was registered with regards to this but told my told my wife not to worry about it. Couple of days later to our complete surprise we got a call from Social Service followed by a visit in a week’s time. I was very nervous about all this but the visit went fine and the report from Social Service rep (after making an internal enquiry with younger child’s NHS nurse and my elder child’s school head teacher) had everything positive - that she observed no concern over child care and that this was one-off incident and that children were very well looked after, etc.

My children are the best and I have strived to give them everything they want/deserve. I am a proud parent but obviously learnt a lesson from this incident.

Mods, do you think this will have any implication on the BC application and should this incident (and the social service report) be included with the application or is it not required.

Any help, directions in this regards will help much,

Thanks.

mcovet
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Re: Involvement in an incident - implication on BC applicati

Post by mcovet » Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:44 pm

nilesha wrote:Hello,

Without knowing the law around it (and any background knowledge even that such law existed) we got involved in an incident and I am worried how this will impact my BC application. Let me explain this:

My wife had to to pick-up baby food from town in urgency and left my two children (6 yrs old and 1 year old) at home. The younger child was sleeping and the elder one on phone always speaking to my wife whilst she went into the town. My wife was back in less than 15-20 mins and just before approaching my home street, she disconnected the phone. Meanwhile a delivery man rang to whom my elder child attended and he noticed that children were alone in the home and made a police complaint. All this within elapsed time of 20 minutes.

When a policeman arrived (10-15 mins later) my wife was at home already and being enquired by a policeman for the first time, she was nervous but she explained the situation. Although the policeman seemed convinced (looking at the Boot's baby food receipt and the time of the printed receipt also in line), he said formal police complaint was registered with regards to this but told my told my wife not to worry about it. Couple of days later to our complete surprise we got a call from Social Service followed by a visit in a week’s time. I was very nervous about all this but the visit went fine and the report from Social Service rep (after making an internal enquiry with younger child’s NHS nurse and my elder child’s school head teacher) had everything positive - that she observed no concern over child care and that this was one-off incident and that children were very well looked after, etc.

My children are the best and I have strived to give them everything they want/deserve. I am a proud parent but obviously learnt a lesson from this incident.

Mods, do you think this will have any implication on the BC application and should this incident (and the social service report) be included with the application or is it not required.

Any help, directions in this regards will help much,

Thanks.
with all due respect, no need to include your desire to give your children all the best. If the law has been broken then it matters not how good a parent you are, apart from being a mitigating factor, but a conviction always stands if the charge is serious.

In your case, there is absolutely no need to include any of the above in your BC application! Noone charged you and you have not been prosecuted, these links http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/parents/you ... /dg_070594
http://suite101.com/article/leaving-chi ... ne-a208240


give a general idea on what is required, but basically unless your child gets injured while you are away (which could constitute "wilful neglect") there is no limit on the age of the child who can be left alone, yet only the end result matters, if there is injury etc. the prosecution may be brought against the parent.

The other thing to consider is that the social services would only get involved in serious cases and after having investigated your situation, they have not taken it further.

No need to worry, but obviously, I would strongly advise against a child opening a door to ANYONE! Careful and loving parent you may be, if leaving children alone, make sure they don't interact with delivery agents or the like, my personal opinion.

nilesha
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Post by nilesha » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:11 pm

mcovet, appreciate your candid response. As I mentioned earlier, until this incident me or my wife didnt knew about such a law but also agree that is no excuse and moreover this is more for safety of my own child so I take full blame. My children have been made aware of not to interact with strangers at the door but then now I dont think we would ever leave them alone.

With regards to BC appliaton, I understand that there was no prosecution but conerned about

1. the registered police complain and social service visit - does that count as a caution/warning or something of the sort that might mean that there is an unspent conviction. How do I know what is the nature of the complaint because police said not to worry at all and in couple of days social lady calls.

2. Point "3.12 Have you engaged in any other activities which might indicate that you may not be considered a person of good character?" in the application form - if the Home office cross references police complaints, this will show up and they might held the application for not disclosing such an incident and hence result into rejection.

I am just thinking including this information may do little harm (as even the social service investigation report is allright) then not including. But at the same time if there definitely no reason then I would avoid

Please advise.

Thanks

mcovet
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Post by mcovet » Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:40 pm

Put it this way, if some "well wisher" alleges that u stole smth from a supermarket, police come to investigate and they dont take it further, u have absolutely nothing to worry about as not all complaints lead to anything not all allegations are true and even after convictions people can lawfully not declare incidents due to the rehabilitation of offenders act. Tell u more, i had a client who was prosecuted for being in possession of a knife but the jury found him not guilty so he didnt have to report it. He could have accepted a caution (which may affect the application) butnhe was innocent and was acquitted. Now, this shows that unless you have been convicted, mere allegations and accusations r neither here nor there. Finally, to put u at ease, even if u report it, they could not take the interest by social services, the police or secret services as any indication that u r of bad character, mere enquiries into potential offence is nothing more than an enquiry. Please grasp this fact!
nilesha wrote:mcovet, appreciate your candid response. As I mentioned earlier, until this incident me or my wife didnt knew about such a law but also agree that is no excuse and moreover this is more for safety of my own child so I take full blame. My children have been made aware of not to interact with strangers at the door but then now I dont think we would ever leave them alone.

With regards to BC appliaton, I understand that there was no prosecution but conerned about

1. the registered police complain and social service visit - does that count as a caution/warning or something of the sort that might mean that there is an unspent conviction. How do I know what is the nature of the complaint because police said not to worry at all and in couple of days social lady calls.

2. Point "3.12 Have you engaged in any other activities which might indicate that you may not be considered a person of good character?" in the application form - if the Home office cross references police complaints, this will show up and they might held the application for not disclosing such an incident and hence result into rejection.

I am just thinking including this information may do little harm (as even the social service investigation report is allright) then not including. But at the same time if there definitely no reason then I would avoid

Please advise.

Thanks

nilesha
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Post by nilesha » Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:24 pm

Thanks mcovet. I was nervous about this incident but your explanation helps.

Thanks

pennylessinindia
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Re: Involvement in an incident - implication on BC applicati

Post by pennylessinindia » Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:58 pm

with all due respect, no need to include your desire to give your children all the best. If the law has been broken then it matters not how good a parent you are, apart from being a mitigating factor, but a conviction always stands if the charge is serious.

In your case, there is absolutely no need to include any of the above in your BC application! Noone charged you and you have not been prosecuted, these links http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/parents/you ... /dg_070594
http://suite101.com/article/leaving-chi ... ne-a208240


give a general idea on what is required, but basically unless your child gets injured while you are away (which could constitute "wilful neglect") there is no limit on the age of the child who can be left alone, yet only the end result matters, if there is injury etc. the prosecution may be brought against the parent.

The other thing to consider is that the social services would only get involved in serious cases and after having investigated your situation, they have not taken it further.

No need to worry, but obviously, I would strongly advise against a child opening a door to ANYONE! Careful and loving parent you may be, if leaving children alone, make sure they don't interact with delivery agents or the like, my personal opinion.[/quote]

No do not leave them alone in the first place - no wonder you are on thin ice
pennyless

mcovet
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Re: Involvement in an incident - implication on BC applicati

Post by mcovet » Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:27 pm

no wonder u r penniless, c u next time

pennylessinindia
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Re: Involvement in an incident - implication on BC applicati

Post by pennylessinindia » Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:21 am

mcovet wrote:no wonder u r penniless, c u next time
Leaving children on their own is not safe and hence my posting. It is not correct to encourage leaving them and telling them not to answer the door, which is what you suggested - very dangerous
pennyless

nilesha
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Post by nilesha » Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:34 am

mcovet, pennylessinindia - appreciate and respect your advise/feedback and I am sure I won't let this happen again regardless.

My query was more about - however such an incident happened and given the police inquiry/social service visit would it have any impact on my BC application and whether I should declare on my application.

Mcovet has kindly suggested that this is not required. Anyone having different view/thoughts.

Thanks.

nilesha
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Post by nilesha » Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:08 am

Sushdmehta & other mods can you please suggest as well if I should declare. I know it's a tricky question and not many similar cases may have been discussed but Mods, senior members your experience and opinion is highly valued and more pertinent then I have seen anywhere else and will help me finally decide before I apply on Monday.

Some members (thanks to mcovet for the explanation) have given their kind advise which has helped and makes sense that in absence of any prosecution there is nothing to declare, but my application is due next week and I am again feeling very nervous about this incident, if picked up by UKBA may be considered as hiding of material facts.

One more thing I can confirm, this incident took place in Aug last year so it's over a year now, not sure if it changes anything. In the meanwhile, I was selected for and completed jury service as well (I am stating this as I read one has to be clear from any convictions, open cases, etc to perform jury duty so assume I am clear but not sure about my wife)

Thanking you much in anticipation.

ric1982
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Post by ric1982 » Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:20 am

Rule of thumb is that if you are unsure then declare it and let UKBA decide. If you don't declare it and they find out (99% chance is that they will) then you are in greater danger of losing even the offence itself was not of serious nature in first place.

Once you declare it on the form you can also ask guys on NCS weather should I be concern about this.

Don't try to out clever the agency. Be honest.

But that is just my opinion.

All the best.

kel
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Post by kel » Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:27 am

ric1982 wrote:Rule of thumb is that if you are unsure then declare it and let UKBA decide. If you don't declare it and they find out (99% chance is that they will) then you are in greater danger of losing even the offence itself was not of serious nature in first place.

Once you declare it on the form you can also ask guys on NCS weather should I be concern about this.

Don't try to out clever the agency. Be honest.

But that is just my opinion.

All the best.
I totally agree with this opinion

nilesha
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Post by nilesha » Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:58 am

Thanks for your feedback.

I am not intending to hide - if ought to be declared, I will definitely.

I am just not sure as there no conviction nor caution or anything "do I need to declare ?"

Thanks

imranb
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Post by imranb » Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:35 pm

nilesha wrote:Thanks for your feedback.

I am not intending to hide - if ought to be declared, I will definitely.

I am just not sure as there no conviction nor caution or anything "do I need to declare ?"

Thanks
Just my personal opinion. If I was you, I wouldn't declare it. My understanding and interpretation is simple. If I have not be prosecuted, I don't need to declare.

nilesha
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Post by nilesha » Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:21 am

imranb wrote: Just my personal opinion. If I was you, I wouldn't declare it. My understanding and interpretation is simple. If I have not be prosecuted, I don't need to declare.
Thanks imranb

I too am leaning towards your suggestion mcovet and imranb as there is no conviction or prosecution, I dont see the need to declare.

But then every time I read the following question on the application form, I become unsure.

Point "3.12 Have you engaged in any other activities which might indicate that you may not be considered a person of good character?"

-- Would your response still be the same for this query as well imranb?

-- If I go ahead and apply without giving this info and per say the application is rejected, will I have a chance to submit the report from Social Services which clearly states that there has been no concern identified?

Mods, Gurus, I am getting mixed responses can you please provide your opinion on this please.

Thanks

kel
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Post by kel » Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:34 am

imranb wrote:
nilesha wrote:Thanks for your feedback.

I am not intending to hide - if ought to be declared, I will definitely.

I am just not sure as there no conviction nor caution or anything "do I need to declare ?"

Thanks
Just my personal opinion. If I was you, I wouldn't declare it. My understanding and interpretation is simple. If I have not be prosecuted, I don't need to declare.
In this case, what would be the harm in declaring it then? Surely it makes more sense to give them info they don't need than vice versa?

nilesha
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Post by nilesha » Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:25 pm

nilesha wrote:
imranb wrote: Just my personal opinion. If I was you, I wouldn't declare it. My understanding and interpretation is simple. If I have not be prosecuted, I don't need to declare.
Thanks imranb

I too am leaning towards your suggestion mcovet and imranb as there is no conviction or prosecution, I dont see the need to declare.

But then every time I read the following question on the application form, I become unsure.

Point "3.12 Have you engaged in any other activities which might indicate that you may not be considered a person of good character?"

-- Would your response still be the same for this query as well imranb?

-- If I go ahead and apply without giving this info and per say the application is rejected, will I have a chance to submit the report from Social Services which clearly states that there has been no concern identified?

Mods, Gurus, I am getting mixed responses can you please provide your opinion on this please.

Thanks
kel wrote: In this case, what would be the harm in declaring it then? Surely it makes more sense to give them info they don't need than vice versa?
Hi Kel, the only reason for my apprehension is that I have seen in some cases on this forum and heard some cases elsewhere as well that by declaring something that they don't need (or not required) can lead to unnecessary complications and case workers getting into a different tangent of thoughts while accessing the application and may need to unnecessary refusals, appeals, etc.

As said earlier, if the guidance/rules states that I have to declare I will. But the question is

1. Do we need to declare given there is no prosecution just a police case registered followed by a completely satisfactory social service report.

2. If I dont declare and application subsequently rejected on this grounds, will I have a chance then to prove on the basis of report being submitted (or it will be too late then).

These are the two queries where I need help given the vast experience of the forum members.

Thanks

emarketeruk
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Post by emarketeruk » Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:01 pm

I would suggest you to declare this, but in the more info section, explain what has happened in summary & attached the social service report as a proof of this. By doing this, you can be sure it is unlikely to have any impact on the decision. The only think it might do is make your application a bit longer as the caseworker may refer it to his senior or make some more enquiries with police to make sure what you say is adding up with what they have recorded.

As long as what you have told here is what exactly happened, I really don’t see any issues. If you don’t declare, you are making the life easier for them to refuse you and there is no appeal process for nationality. You can do nothing about it if they refuse. It may also lead to automatic refusal of all future applications if you don’t declare

So don’t take a change, apply though NCS so you have your passport with you to travel if you need to do so & it doesn’t stop your life till you get a reply without passport.

nilesha
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Post by nilesha » Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:11 pm

Thanks for all the help thus far...

Please advise on whether this is an alright level of summary or should I add/remove something? I mean, I can expand it further or can summarise in two lines, I am not sure :? . Can you help please.

"Although no conviction/caution, I would like to mention a one-off incident. On the afternoon of <date>, I had to step out of the home to buy some baby food and as it was cold and raining I went leaving my children at home for around 20 minutes. This was raised to police by a courier delivery man who was attended by my daughter. I learnt from my daughter that a delivery man had called when I was back in around 15-20 minutes. When police officer attended us soon after, I explained the situation. Police officer was able to verify after looking at the Boots baby food receipt and the time printed on the receipt. She confirmed that no further actions are required. A social service worker visited us later and as stated in her report, she found absolutely no concerns about any aspects of childcare and the case was closed. I have enclosed the Report and Assessment Record for your reference.

I can assure you that this was an isolated incident and reading the laws around this and also understanding the risk on children’s safety, such an incident will never happen again."


Can I add this directly on page 13 of AN form without any mentioning on any other page?

Please help I have NCS appointment this week.

Gyfrinachgar
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Post by Gyfrinachgar » Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:26 pm

Clear, confident and backed up with evidence. I think it is good and more than sufficient. If anything, I would shorten it slightly, for example: "...police officer was able to verify [...] and confirmed that no further actions are required."

No need to over-emphasise it - I think you might even get away with putting it solely in the cover letter, but if you mention it in that section that is in my opinion clearly more than enough.

nilesha
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Post by nilesha » Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:04 pm

Gyfrinachgar wrote:Clear, confident and backed up with evidence. I think it is good and more than sufficient. If anything, I would shorten it slightly, for example: "...police officer was able to verify [...] and confirmed that no further actions are required."

No need to over-emphasise it - I think you might even get away with putting it solely in the cover letter, but if you mention it in that section that is in my opinion clearly more than enough.
Thanks Gyfrinachgar, feedback really much appreciated.

I never thought about cover letter until previous note. One reason I why thought mentioning this on page 13 (of my wife's application) is to keep this down to one application.

Is there any reason/advantage to put this in cover letter instead of the application itself. (I know as a cover letter will be a print out will make it more legible when compared to handwritten on page 13. )

Thanks again in anticipation.

Gyfrinachgar
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Post by Gyfrinachgar » Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:27 pm

nilesha wrote:Is there any reason/advantage to put this in cover letter instead of the application itself.
A cover letter has - although technically a part of it - a somewhat lower standing than the application itself. Apart from niceties and superfluous explanations, one can put stuff there that is not really that important, but might be worth mentioning for completeness sake. That is at least how I see it - you might get wastly different opinions on that matter. However, regardless were you put it, I think you will be on the safe side and cannot be considered to be concealing the truth - and I think that is what you were after in the first place.

nilesha
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Post by nilesha » Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:12 pm

Thanks Gyfrinachgar - your note as spot on as ever!!!

-----------------------------------

Just an update - I have now submitted my application through NCS.

On explaining the incident to NCS checking officer , he just asked three questions - 1. have you got any convictions, 2. have you been tried/prosecuted in court, have you had a FPN - the answer to all 3 questions were "No". Therefore, he said, it was not necessary to mention about the incident as providing this information would unnecessarily mean that UKBA will have to act on it.

On me checking whether not mentioning would lead to hiding any material facts, he said that he personally doesnt think this needs to be included but since I was still not sure he called someone in front of us (I think it was UKBA representative in the NCS office). He explained the situation and got a confirmation from the other end that cautions and reprimands are also not considered for Nationality checks and therefore there if there hasnt been any further actions apart from what is mentioned then there is no need to mention about this.

Anyways, still very nervous but have now submitted my application going by NCS officer's words... so can now only keep my fingers crossed and hope for the best. I will update the forum if and whenever I hear of any progress..

Gyfrinachgar
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Post by Gyfrinachgar » Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:28 pm

nilesha wrote:Anyways, still very nervous but have now submitted my application going by NCS officer's words... .
No need to worry, imho. The opinion in this forum was generally going in that direction from the start as well, and if an NCS staff told you its fine, then I am sure it is fine. These guys are professionals and do that for a living. Even in the (extremely unlikely!!) scenario that HO would come down hard on you later for omitting this incident, you would have very solid grounds for an appeal/complaints/review procedure.

Anyway, good luck with your application. I am sure you'll be fine and look forward to your updates. :)

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