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Is the UK right to adopt 2 tier citizenship system

A section for posts relating to applications for Naturalisation or Registration as a British Citizen. Naturalisation

Moderators: Casa, push, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, Zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, archigabe

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Obie
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Is the UK right to adopt 2 tier citizenship system

Post by Obie » Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:46 pm

The case of Shamima Begum has made things clear for non-indigenous British citizen (If such a term exist), that no ethnic minority British Citizens are safe these days. There is a pattern here that everyone needs to watch attentively. The Rochdale case was troubling, even though those individuals were ghastly and did abhorrent things, i felt the Home Secretary was wrong to have stripped them of their citizenship. However they were all naturalised nationals, so they came to the UK from another country as adults, so the effect is not as bad.

The case of Ms Begum seems extraordinary. Ms Begun is a personification of evil, every parents worst nightmare, but the action of Mr Javid cannot be justified. As distasteful as her conduct was, she does not deserve to be made exile and stateless, she is a British, she was born here, citizen under section 1(1)(a) when she was born in 1999. She was radicalised in the UK, this nation made her into what she is today, this nation needs to undertake a soul searching exercise, she never immigrated to the UK, but was born here, has never known any other country besides the UK. Therefore it was wrong to strip her of her citizenship, it was not right for Javid to think in his twisted head that Bangladesh that with all its problems, should have to manage Ms Begun. It is morally wrong for a state to think it could pass it problem to other nation, and i am glad to see the Bangladeshi authority standing steadfastly against the action of Mr Begun.

Now let us compare Ms Begum and Jack Letts. Mr Letts is a truly dangerous man, he was a foot soldier in the Caliphate, there is no doubt in my mind of the fact that he is more dangerous that Ms Begum, more older than Ms Begum, both a British citizen, both born in the UK, one is clearly a dual national, and the other is allegedly a dual national. I saw his ITV interview, and i know that guy is more dangerous. He accepted his Canadian Citizenship and even confirmed he had a Canadian passport and has been to Canada, unlike Ms Begum who has never been to Bangladeshi.

Why is Mr Javid not proposing to send Mr Letts to Canada, why is there no suggestion of doing so? what the hell is going on?

When one considers the windrush scandal, the burning of landing card, the detention of migrant, then the case of Ms Begun and then Mr Letts. It is clear that there is a problem with the system. This is not coincidence, there is a concerted effort to create this 2 tier citizenship based on race.

As we approach brexit, what implication will this be for EEA national and their family member, will the threat of deportation still extends to them? How long before the Home office will start applying automatic deportation to British Citizen whose parents are from non-western countries.

I have not seen this type of practise from other country. If anyone is aware which other EU countries strip of their citizens like the UK, please share with the forum.

I clearly support the repatriation of Ms Begun. Unlike Mr Letts who was a combatant for ISIL, there is no evidence she was involved in combat, if she did or has broken any UK law, then she need to be brought back and face the full force of British law.
Seasons greetings to everyone and a prosperous 2020

vinny
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Re: Is the UK right to adopt 2 tier citizenship system

Post by vinny » Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:29 am

See also published strategy > paragraphs 170, 171-172 (analogous to her situation).
This is not intended to be legal or professional advice in any jurisdiction. Please click on any links for further information. Refer to the source of any quotes.
We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.

Obie
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Re: Is the UK right to adopt 2 tier citizenship system

Post by Obie » Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:09 am

Indeed Vinny, thanks for the reminder and the links you helpfully added to my post, I am also grateful for the about the failure to adopt their own Counter Terrorism Strategy. The policy clearly state that this people must expect to be investigated, prosecuted.

Now as they could not find s crime to prosecute Ms Begum with, we hear this deprivation non-sense.

We may be in the 21 Century, but 19th Century mindset still exist. It is like when the British were sending their convicts to Australia , but I think that is less bad than this, as there was a strategy to colonise Australia and dispossess its inhabitant. But all accounts the anglo saxon convicts were treated well, and were British subject. Ms Begum is worst.
Seasons greetings to everyone and a prosperous 2020

JB007
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Re: Is the UK right to adopt 2 tier citizenship system

Post by JB007 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:03 pm

Obie wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:46 pm

Now let us compare Ms Begum and Jack Letts. Mr Letts is a truly dangerous man, he was a foot soldier in the Caliphate,
Nobody wants their families in the UK caught up in any acts of terrorsim from hatred, which is why the online pettion to ban all ISIS members from returning to the UK is getting so many signing.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/231521

Any why the decent families are reporting those they see encouranging any kind of hatred, these often seen on the internet too.
https://www.gov.uk/report-terrorism

Richard W
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Re: Is the UK right to adopt 2 tier citizenship system

Post by Richard W » Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:44 am

Obie wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:46 pm
The case of Ms Begum seems extraordinary. Ms Begun is a personification of evil, every parents worst nightmare, but the action of Mr Javid cannot be justified. As distasteful as her conduct was, she does not deserve to be made exile and stateless, she is a British, she was born here, citizen under section 1(1)(a) when she was born in 1999.
Why do you believe she was never a Bangladeshi citizen? Alternatively, what makes you believe she has legally lost Bangladeshi citizenship?
Obie wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:46 pm
Now let us compare Ms Begum and Jack Letts. Mr Letts is a truly dangerous man, he was a foot soldier in the Caliphate,...
Your link does not say that he was.
Obie wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:46 pm
Why is Mr Javid not proposing to send Mr Letts to Canada, why is there no suggestion of doing so? what the hell is going on?
Mr Letts has condemned ISIS.

More cynically, I wonder if there is a 'no race' agreement with Canada - both have (or used to have?) powers to strip citizens of their citizenship, though with free exchange of information, Canada should lose, as it requires a conviction for deprivation of citizenship. (With the prospect of Scottish independence, I had visions of some people being simultaneously stripped of English and Scottish nationality by the respective home Secretaries on the grounds that they also had Scottish/English citizenship.)
Obie wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:46 pm
When one considers the windrush scandal, the burning of landing card, the detention of migrant, then the case of Ms Begun and then Mr Letts. It is clear that there is a problem with the system. This is not coincidence, there is a concerted effort to create this 2 tier citizenship based on race.
It does seem to be an evil Labour law. I was quite upset when I discovered my daughter had become a second-class citizen.
Obie wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:46 pm
How long before the Home office will start applying automatic deportation to British Citizen whose parents are from non-western countries.
Well, Indian origin is not a threat. A British passport cancels Indian citizenship. Stripping a British citizenship from someone with with 'Overseas Citizenship of India' will automatically cancel his OCI unless there ia a third nationality involved, so OCI does not imperil British citizenship. I have a colleague of Pakistani origin who believes that renouncing Pakistani citizenship on behalf of children is a wise precaution. Some people are stuck with unrenounceable citizenships.

vinny
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Re: Is the UK right to adopt 2 tier citizenship system

Post by vinny » Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:03 am

Richard W wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:44 am
Why do you believe she was never a Bangladeshi citizen? Alternatively, what makes you believe she has legally lost Bangladeshi citizenship?
The law on British-Bangladeshi dual nationals
In the case of UK citizens of Bangladeshi heritage, like Begum, Bangladeshi law states that they automatically have Bangladeshi citizenship on birth. They are dual nationals. However, if they do not make an active effort to retain that citizenship, it lapses when they reach the age of 21.

Such was the case with E3 and N3, two British citizens of Bangladeshi origin who found themselves deprived of their citizenship when they were abroad in Bangladesh and Turkey respectively. The Special Immigration Appeals Commission (SIAC) ruled in E3 & N3 (Exclusion : Preliminary issue) [2018] UKSIAC SC_146_2017 that as they had not sought to retain their Bangladeshi citizenship before they turned 21, it had automatically lapsed. As a result, the decision to deprive them of their UK citizenship had rendered them stateless and their appeals against deprivation were allowed.

In Shamima Begum’s case, my understanding is that she is British born and raised and has never been to Bangladesh. Nevertheless, it may be that as she is still under 21, her Bangladeshi citizenship technically remains intact. So she is not stateless by law. It does not matter if she does not hold a Bangladeshi passport, as holding a passport is distinct from the legal fact of citizenship.

Sajid Javid was no doubt aware of the ruling in E3 and N3. The bizarre result is that young people like Begum are more vulnerable to deprivation than mature adults aged over 21.

Whatever the strict legal position, it is virtually impossible for Begum to obtain evidence of her Bangladeshi citizenship or use a single benefit of citizenship in any way. She is in a refugee camp in a war zone. She has no consular access to the Bangladeshi authorities. For all intents and purposes, she is de facto stateless.
See also
Bangladesh doesn’t want Shamima Begum. Here’s why it might have to take her.
Shamima Begum is not a Bangladeshi citizen.
Richard W wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:44 am
Obie wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:46 pm
Now let us compare Ms Begum and Jack Letts. Mr Letts is a truly dangerous man, he was a foot soldier in the Caliphate,...
Your link does not say that he was.
I added those links for references.
This is not intended to be legal or professional advice in any jurisdiction. Please click on any links for further information. Refer to the source of any quotes.
We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.

Obie
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Re: Is the UK right to adopt 2 tier citizenship system

Post by Obie » Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:18 am

The problem is, the Bangladeshi authorities have said she has been erroneously identified as a Bangladeshi citizen and there is no question of her being allowed to enter the country.

In the UK, if there is a dispute as to whether one holds a nationality of a country, only the courts can settle it. The British Government has no standing in Bangladesh to represent her, and therefore she is indeed defacto stateless.
Seasons greetings to everyone and a prosperous 2020

vinny
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Re: Is the UK right to adopt 2 tier citizenship system

Post by vinny » Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:48 am

Moreover, if the Home Secretary's deprivation order was after Shamima's baby's birth, then it's undisputed that Shamima's baby is British by descent. Then the UK Government should offer the British baby their full support.
If you are a dual British national in a third country (that is, a country of which you are not a national), we will offer you our full support. You do not need to be travelling on your British passport.
This is not intended to be legal or professional advice in any jurisdiction. Please click on any links for further information. Refer to the source of any quotes.
We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.

Obie
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Re: Is the UK right to adopt 2 tier citizenship system

Post by Obie » Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:54 am

I do agree with your perspective on the child. Both the British Government and the Dutch state has a responsibility.

It is a shame that the British Government and the Dutch did nothing whiles the 2 previous dual British and Dutch children died of malnutrition in Syria.

If this one dies, then Javid really ought to resign.
Seasons greetings to everyone and a prosperous 2020

vinny
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Re: Is the UK right to adopt 2 tier citizenship system

Post by vinny » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:18 am

Given the parents' circumstances, I doubt that they previously requested help on their children's behalf from the respective Governments?
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Obie
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Re: Is the UK right to adopt 2 tier citizenship system

Post by Obie » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:28 am

Possibly there was no awareness of the first 2, or consular assistance was never sought, but in relation to this recent child, assistance has been sought. So you do have a point Vinny.

Even if the Ms Begum's citizenship had been revoked, as a matter of EU law, this child would have had a right to enter the UK to his grandparents, unless the UK government invokes public policy argument against him, which will clearly be absurd.
Seasons greetings to everyone and a prosperous 2020

mkhan2525
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Re: Is the UK right to adopt 2 tier citizenship system

Post by mkhan2525 » Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:26 pm

This will undoubtedly effect British Citizens of Pakistani origin. Pakistan law states children born to Pakistan parents irrespective of which country they are born are Pakistani nationals from birth. Many of us also have overseas Nadra ID cards which allows us visa free entry to Pakistan and in effect means we have accepted Pakistani nationality. Once you have the ID card you are entitled to apply for a Pakistani passport at anytime and Pakistan accepts dual nationality.

vinny
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Re: Is the UK right to adopt 2 tier citizenship system

Post by vinny » Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:16 am

This is not intended to be legal or professional advice in any jurisdiction. Please click on any links for further information. Refer to the source of any quotes.
We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.

Obie
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Re: Is the UK right to adopt 2 tier citizenship system

Post by Obie » Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:34 pm

What the British Government did is a disgraceful and deplorable act of cruelty on a young British child. They should be ashamed of themselves.

It was within their power to save that child's life, but they choose not to. They acted totally indifferent to the child's right to life. They choose political expediency over the well being of a British Citizen.

To imagine an innocent British Citizen being left to die in a camp from treatable disease, while these hypocrites and shameful government talks about saving the live of children in 3rd country is just beyond the pale.

It looks like the child was Javid's sacrificial lamb at the altar of his no 10 ambition.

One has to start asking what it means to be a British citizen. Does it only count if one is a caucasian British? If this child was a Caucasian British , would he have been left to die at a Syrian Refugee camp?
Seasons greetings to everyone and a prosperous 2020

Richard W
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Re: Is the UK right to adopt 2 tier citizenship system

Post by Richard W » Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:32 pm

Obie wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:34 pm
One has to start asking what it means to be a British citizen. Does it only count if one is a caucasian British? If this child was a Caucasian British , would he have been left to die at a Syrian Refugee camp?
As far as I am aware, the child was Caucasian. Are you suggesting it was half 'Mongolian'? Mother looks very much a 'round-eye'. Or are you talking some foreign language?

vinny
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Re: Is the UK right to adopt 2 tier citizenship system

Post by vinny » Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:32 am

This is not intended to be legal or professional advice in any jurisdiction. Please click on any links for further information. Refer to the source of any quotes.
We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.

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