NEW AN(Citizenship) FORM MAY'2015

Ok
with this last 10 years employment, i am on ILR from last 3 years.
I came to uk in 2009. with regads to the last 10 years employment, i initially came on working holiday maker visa in 2009.
I started my employment on 2nd feb 2009 and ended on 10th Feb 2010 after I got a call from my employer to say I am not entitled to work for more than a year on initial working holiday maker visa. I didn’t wanted to overwork and it was just a mere misunderstanding of the rules. I happily stop working as soon as I was told. I was stating Feb-2009 to Feb-2010. Do you think the breaching of the above will cause concern.
Tax reference number, do I need to put all the reference numbers of all the jobs I have done OR the recent reference number ?

Ok Sorry I guess still there is a confusion. They may have all the records till up to 1975. But on the system they hold previous 5 years. Also they can find out tax information from the HMRC not hours plus hourly rate ( this is only displayed on Payslips) as it has been mentioned by someone in the post. Even if they suspect too much tax paid in a year and decide to investigate this, then they need to contact employer. Now what if that business is no longer in operation and even though they are, would they be immediately available to confirm that the person was with us from such and such date and working so many hours.

Lets try to be logical here and rather getting frustrated with this and as the form says "provide the information to the best of my knowledge".

One thing also make me laugh is HMRC must be having a huge number of calls after this minor change.

Also just to update the number I was given to ask for the process from HMRC Record Retrieval dept to request last 10 years history is constantly engaged since morning. I tried several time .

I am sure they must be pleased with the home office.

london_2014 wrote:

muzakhaa wrote:Hi All,
Regarding question 1.53 I can see people are quite worried but not sure why. It makes no sense,
- A normal person IQ would not remember his employers especially the oldest in last 10 years.
- Also called HMRC this morning to get the information of Employment history of past 10 years. I was advised that they dont archive data on system no longer than 5 Years old. However, for anything beyond 5 years old you need to write to a dedicated Record Retrieval department for which I think we need to fill the form and the form wants to state us Employer name and from & to dates of employment.
- I am confused this is why I am contacting them to get the information of to get an idea based on tax years which employer I worked for.
- For my understanding one should provide the information to the best of his knowledge as the form states.

How can they see if you worked 8 hours during summer time? All the other students used to work with me....cant even remeber whether this was allowed or not... 8 years ago from now....

As far as I remember upto 2006/2007 students were allowed to work full time duing their vacations, public Holidays and after they have submitted there dessertation and waiting for recieve their degree.

cs95tdg wrote:

london_2014 wrote:

theprideofpak wrote:It looks like, now they'll start rejecting citizen applications on the basis of breach of immigration rules, if somebody had been working full time when he/she were not suppose to or were not suppose to work at all....

I believe it is to see whether you paid income taxes and NI rather than seeing whether you worked more hours than allowed as can be seen in the extract from the AN guide (p.7)

1.48- 1.53 You must provide details of your current and previous employment during the past 10 years

If you do not pay income tax through PAYE you must demonstrate that you have discharged your obligations towards the H.M. Revenue & Customs, by attaching a Self Assessment Statement of Account.

I'd say they would look at both of the following when it comes to employment:
1) Whether you paid the necessary taxes/NI on income
2) Whether you were employed while you had no right to work under the immigration rules that applied to you at the time. I cannot comment on how they would know/or if they would check how many hours someone worked. There are many different restrictions that apply to those who are in the UK under different immigration categories (e.g. Visitors, asylum seekers, students, those who have no leave to remain by overstaying etc...) They will most probably look to see if the applicant was in breach of immigration rules based on their immigration history combined with employment history.

so you mean to say that HO will take yearly NI and tax (from HMRC) and divide it by standard yearly weeks hours to find out about how many hours each person worked? in doing so they will have to go back to HMRC, obtain the necessary documents, do the maths, apply rules applicable durin that time and then make a decision???? may be this is possible but seems difficult given ppl can hardly remember information so far back....

muzakhaa wrote:

london_2014 wrote:

muzakhaa wrote:Hi All,
Regarding question 1.53 I can see people are quite worried but not sure why. It makes no sense,
- A normal person IQ would not remember his employers especially the oldest in last 10 years.
- Also called HMRC this morning to get the information of Employment history of past 10 years. I was advised that they dont archive data on system no longer than 5 Years old. However, for anything beyond 5 years old you need to write to a dedicated Record Retrieval department for which I think we need to fill the form and the form wants to state us Employer name and from & to dates of employment.
- I am confused this is why I am contacting them to get the information of to get an idea based on tax years which employer I worked for.
- For my understanding one should provide the information to the best of his knowledge as the form states.

How can they see if you worked 8 hours during summer time? All the other students used to work with me....cant even remeber whether this was allowed or not... 8 years ago from now....

As far as I remember upto 2006/2007 students were allowed to work full time duing their vacations, public Holidays and after they have submitted there dessertation and waiting for recieve their degree.

What if someone works for 2.5 months (35 hours each week) after exams but before dessertation (during summer) in 2006?

london_2014 wrote: so you mean to say that HO will take yearly NI and tax (from HMRC) and divide it by standard yearly weeks hours to find out about how many hours each person worked? in doing so they will have to go back to HMRC, obtain the necessary documents, do the maths, apply rules applicable durin that time and then make a decision???? may be this is possible but seems difficult given ppl can hardly remember information so far back....

He didn't say that - in fact it is not feasible to work out exceeding working hours from HMRC tax info.

It appears they are doing this solely to ensure tax has been paid, from the guidance:

Among the duties and obligations which you are expected to fulfil is payment of income tax and National Insurance contributions. We may ask H.M. Revenue & Customs for confirmation that your tax and National Insurance affairs are in order. When you sign the application form you will be giving your consent for us to approach them.
1.48- 1.53 You must provide details of your current and previous employment during the past 10 years
If you do not pay income tax through PAYE you must demonstrate that you have discharged your obligations towards the H.M. Revenue & Customs, by attaching a Self Assessment Statement of Account.

I think they are not doing this for tax and NI purpose only. They will also check those who were not allowed work or not allowed full time work. Like those who were previously on student they will check, if they had broken any immigration conditions in thier student life. And I think there will be loads of refusals on this basis.

spoke with UKBA
they want the joining date and leaving date of all the past employments. If cant be provided, they want a covering letter stating that the applicant cannot remember the dates. this tells me they dont need this just for tax purposes

I guess they could call the previous employment and ask for the dates if you dont provide one? also could check the number of hours worked to satisy the immigration restriction?

HarryC wrote:spoke with UKBA
they want the joining date and leaving date of all the past employments. If cant be provided, they want a covering letter stating that the applicant cannot remember the dates. this tells me they dont need this just for tax purposes

I guess they could call the previous employment and ask for the dates if you dont provide one? also could check the number of hours worked to satisy the immigration restriction?

And what if that previous employmer doen't exists anymore ?

In that case they cant really do much can they apart from checking with HMRC
Doubt they will go that far to be honest? i mean they are processing thousands of apps in a month, how many times, they will check by constantly calling previous employers asking for the dates etc? What if someone had 10 different employers over last 10 years, will they call each of those? Hard to tell, i am in the same boat, i came here on Working holiday maker visa and overworked by few days due to misunderstanding. it was me who queried that with UKBA about rules and stopped employment but not sure whether they will be ruthless or lenient !

london_2014 wrote:

cs95tdg wrote:I'd say they would look at both of the following when it comes to employment:
1) Whether you paid the necessary taxes/NI on income
2) Whether you were employed while you had no right to work under the immigration rules that applied to you at the time. I cannot comment on how they would know/or if they would check how many hours someone worked. There are many different restrictions that apply to those who are in the UK under different immigration categories (e.g. Visitors, asylum seekers, students, those who have no leave to remain by overstaying etc...) They will most probably look to see if the applicant was in breach of immigration rules based on their immigration history combined with employment history.

so you mean to say that HO will take yearly NI and tax (from HMRC) and divide it by standard yearly weeks hours to find out about how many hours each person worked? in doing so they will have to go back to HMRC, obtain the necessary documents, do the maths, apply rules applicable durin that time and then make a decision????.

No, that's certainly not what I mean't. There is no standard formula that they can apply to establish whether you have exceeded the hours you were allowed to work. I honestly cannot comment on this specific student concern alone. My comment was a general one highlighting the fact that there will be different work related restrictions that apply to those who were on different types of visas.

I don't see a scientific way that the HO can establish whether a student has exceeded the permitted hours. Unless the hours are officially recorded somewhere within HMRC (which I doubt very much) or one of the applicants previous application payslip evidence. Unless the employer is still operating, the HO will also not be able to approach them to verify.

I'd hazard a guess that they'd attempt to contact employers or investigate only if something stands out when they get the HMRC employment history and look at it in conjunction with the applicants immigration history. E.g. An excessive annualincome over a year where the applicant was on a student visa. Or income over a year where someone was on visitor visa - no right to work etc...

If they have to check with the number of hours student worked then even without this new section they can do it. But originally its purpose only to check that whether the taxes especially PAYE has been paid because many years ago even now many bogus companies exist who don't pay properly their employees tax and I think a lot tier 1 holders may trapp too. But regarding the number of hours a person worked if does not belong to recent but let say belong to time of 5-6 years back then it definitely cannot be traced. Remember during 2007 ukba tried to check student working hours and few students they deported but later on hmrc won the battle to not provide them data in details due to data protection act. This section is just to enable ukba to confirm that no taxes is in arrear. Section 40 of ukba act only allows them to verify the taxes.

hello all
i am going to apply for naturalization next month.i have some questions with new AN form
previously i was in student visa from 2009 - 2011 then i returned to India. i came back in 2012 as a spouse of British citizen i had my ILR last year.

* for 5 year address history i have to provide full 5 year addresses or just i have to start from 2012?
*i did part time job when i was student so for 10 years employment history i have to mention that or i have to start after 2012?
*on payment slip they are asking ho reference number. i got ho reference number at time of my ILR i have to put that?
*they asking award reference number(1.26) but i cant find anywhere in my certificate. i have passed trinity's grade 5 English exam
*i have BRP card so i have to do biomatrics again?
Thank you

@cool mind, I agree that the primary purpose of introducing this section is to check whether the applicant has paid the necessary income tax.

However, at the same time I believe it will also aid the HO with the other checks that they would do, to satisfy themselves that the applicant is of Good character (they have always done these checks, but since December 2014, the changes state that any immigration related breaches, would result in a refusal upto 10 years). So hence why I believe the 10 years of employment history information captured under this section would help the HO conduct both these checks. I'm steering clear from any reference to student hours here, as I've already said what I believe on that subject. There are many aspects that are checked when it comes to Good character - not limited to checks with HMRC & other government agencies, Immigration history, Criminal history... IMHO this section in the new form certainly helps the HO with these checks.

their is no way to check how many hours some one worked with the NI or TAX they paid, HMRC don't have that info. only thing they can do is call up the company and ask for payslip etc.

This is just to make sure you are economically active in UK.

It reminds me also to the time when ukba for the first time and then included the section of national insurance number in student visa form but nothing wrong was happened. On the other hand p60s and employment histories are never kept on the basis of hours worked rather on the basis of gross/net income & other similar ingredients?? In my opinion it is basically designed to check taxes but I think any over working belong to recent time then it may come to surface more easily but I don't think if over working occurred several years back like 5-6years will be traceable.

cool mind wrote:It reminds me also to the time when ukba for the first time and then included the section of national insurance number in student visa form but nothing wrong was happened. On the other hand p60s and employment histories are never kept on the basis of hours worked rather on the basis of gross/net income & other similar ingredients?? In my opinion it is basically designed to check taxes but I think any over working belong to recent time then it may come to surface more easily but I don't think if over working occurred several years back like 5-6years will be traceable.

Not just hours? What about days? if someone wasnt entitle to work in a 1 year out of 2 years visa to start with , the dates too will tell them on the employment history?

cs95tdg wrote:@cool mind, I agree that the primary purpose of introducing this section is to check whether the applicant has paid the necessary income tax.

However, at the same time I believe it will also aid the HO with the other checks that they would do, to satisfy themselves that the applicant is of Good character (they have always done these checks, but since December 2014, the changes state that any immigration related breaches, would result in a refusal upto 10 years). So hence why I believe the 10 years of employment history information captured under this section would help the HO conduct both these checks. I'm steering clear from any reference to student hours here, as I've already said what I believe on that subject. There are many aspects that are checked when it comes to Good character - not limited to checks with HMRC & other government agencies, Immigration history, Criminal history... IMHO this section in the new form certainly helps the HO with these checks.

I understand that we are quite Naive on this issues. However Just to keep in mind that most of the company in UK held data for employees upto 5 years. After that they just simply discard their data from the system. So I guess in most of the cases the information is impossible from previous employer. Again I would stress on the statement as per the AN form to Complete the form to the best of your knowledge. In my case I cant recall which employer(s) I worked for especially between 2005-2006 I know employer name but dont know address if this the address of premisses then it is owned by a different business. But I will try my best to provide as much information as I can.

I agree with the above poster that many companies don't keep data of employees taxation or work hour for more longer period like five years. But what I guess and repeating again that if such over working is recent then it can come to surface easily while if over working belong to time let say 5-6 years then it will be almost impossible. I think tax department don't share information much with ukba and therefore, ukba need pacific employment dates to get taxes be checked in such precise and limited channel by knowing the jobs of 10 years

cool mind wrote:I agree with the above poster that many companies don't keep data of employees taxation or work hour for more longer period like five years. But what I guess and repeating again that if such over working is recent then it can come to surface easily while if over working belong to time let say 5-6 years then it will be almost impossible. I think tax department don't share information much with ukba and therefore, ukba need pacific employment dates to get taxes be checked in such precise and limited channel by knowing the jobs of 10 years

I called my employer which i worked for in 2009-2010 and they had all my details !!

HarryC wrote:

cool mind wrote:I agree with the above poster that many companies don't keep data of employees taxation or work hour for more longer period like five years. But what I guess and repeating again that if such over working is recent then it can come to surface easily while if over working belong to time let say 5-6 years then it will be almost impossible. I think tax department don't share information much with ukba and therefore, ukba need pacific employment dates to get taxes be checked in such precise and limited channel by knowing the jobs of 10 years

I called my employer which i worked for in 2009-2010 and they had all my details !!

Have you tried to ask them that in a particular week how much you worked, which days? Have you asked that can they exchange such information to third party about you?

An employer is not bound to ukba to share information due to data protection act unless employee itself present them for example payslip or they find that from that person. Whereas since the section 40 of ukba act 2007 came its slightly an alternative to data protection act where certain limited information the tax department can share.

I called my previous company where I worked from 2004 to 2007 and they said we got your start and end date and your job title, nothing more than that. But as for as HMRC concern they got total amount of pay including NI and Tax on yearly basis.

Hi All,
I called UKBA regarding question 1.53 and they have advised that put as much information as you can and write coverletter why cant you provide further infomartion of 10 years. Additionally advisor said they dont expect us to remember whole 10 years of employment history. He also admit that its difficult to get the information from HMRC as they only hold the record for the last 5 years on the system.

Goodl luck to everyone including me for the application.

My 10 years story = 6 years ( ILR + Tier2) + 2 Years PSW +2 years student visa