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Passport refused - uncancelled passport in maiden name

A section for posts relating to applications for Naturalisation or Registration as a British Citizen. Naturalisation

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Antsmall
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Re: Passport refused - uncancelled passport in maiden name

Post by Antsmall » Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:39 am

Well that is very interesting and - dare we hope? - encouraging. Thanks Vinny for that information.

On page 4 this document from 23 July 2013
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _08.13.pdf
it says under 'change of name in passport':
"You should check the requirements for the country you are in for when and how a name can be changed as this may not meet UK requirements. If you live in such a country, HM Passport Office will issue your passport in the new name with an observation to say that the holder is also known by their original name."

The stuff about 'country you are in', rather than 'country of which you are a citizen', is weird, but arguably it is saying the opposite of the 9 June 2014 document, namely that there is flexibility to acknowledge discrepancy between an 'original name' and the 'new name' to be shown on the passport.

So the question is, given that this document from 9 June 2014 was revoked, has the 'no discrepancy with name on foreign passport' rule also been revoked, or has it popped up somewhere else? I read every document on that list which seemed relevant, but haven't found any reference to it anywhere else. Any thoughts? Is it possible that these HMPO people in Liverpool are still going by the 9 June 2014 document even though it was officially revoked?

I'd love to hear any further thoughts and information on that. And thanks again for that possibly encouraging piece of information. Let's try to get to the bottom of this!

noajthan
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Re: Passport refused - uncancelled passport in maiden name

Post by noajthan » Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:26 am

Antsmall wrote:Well that is very interesting and - dare we hope? - encouraging. Thanks Vinny for that information.

On page 4 this document from 23 July 2013
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _08.13.pdf
it says under 'change of name in passport':
"You should check the requirements for the country you are in for when and how a name can be changed as this may not meet UK requirements. If you live in such a country, HM Passport Office will issue your passport in the new name with an observation to say that the holder is also known by their original name."

The stuff about 'country you are in', rather than 'country of which you are a citizen', is weird, but arguably it is saying the opposite of the 9 June 2014 document, namely that there is flexibility to acknowledge discrepancy between an 'original name' and the 'new name' to be shown on the passport.

So the question is, given that this document from 9 June 2014 was revoked, has the 'no discrepancy with name on foreign passport' rule also been revoked, or has it popped up somewhere else? I read every document on that list which seemed relevant, but haven't found any reference to it anywhere else. Any thoughts? Is it possible that these HMPO people in Liverpool are still going by the 9 June 2014 document even though it was officially revoked?

I'd love to hear any further thoughts and information on that. And thanks again for that possibly encouraging piece of information. Let's try to get to the bottom of this!
This Telegraph story from June 2014 also mentions the document - and Government ministers' response to it:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... cklog.html
... a Home Office spokesperson issued a statement saying: “Ministers were unaware of this document and have instructed Her Majesty’s Passport Office to withdraw it immediately.
Thanks vinny & Antsmall for recent info on internal PO policy documents.
It looks like the June 2014 policy document is not part of the official rules but maybe some officials are unaware & still using it :?: :!:

In any case it was described (in its introduction) as applying to overseas applications (so arguably not applicable for residents of UK).

I've also found no other mention anywhere in published PO documents & guides for any justification of the apparent 'no discrepancy with name on foreign passport' rule.

The various PDF passport guidance notes also seem to acknowledge:
discrepancies may occur between names on documents from different countries
&
also confirms use of observations in a passport regarding use of maiden name.

One version (2013) even has this disclaimer:
Passport Office cannot accept responsibility for any problems encountered as a result of issuing a passport in a new name which is not recognised in the country you live in
- however latest version, for applicants in Britain, doesn't contain this statement.

So, so far, there is:
no clear & published rule against mismatched names; (affecting dual nationals &/or those naturalised in married name but with prior docs in maiden name)
&
we suspect some officials are continuing with a mistaken (mis)use of the withdrawn June 2014 policy doc;

- all can be grounds for discussions with the PO when contesting any official letter with a reason for a denial of passport.
Last edited by noajthan on Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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noajthan
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Re: Passport refused - uncancelled passport in maiden name

Post by noajthan » Mon Apr 06, 2015 10:38 am

gemgirl23 wrote:
noajthan wrote:Still nothing received in writing from HM PO to explain their apparent refusal of my wife's passport application.

Here's a similar recent case, again from this year:
http://www.immigrationboards.com/britis ... 79624.html

- clearly some internal rules have changed at the PO and yet the published guidance notes are out of sync & NCS seems unaware...
Hi I'm checking your thread almost everyday and also anticipating what PO will advise you what to do next. I find it ridiculous that the name "issue" didn't come up in the naturalisation application stage. It is basically the immigration/passport office issuing documents that they themselves will not accept. I.e Naturalisation certificate in new name. It is getting me nervous as I will be applying soon & not only did I changed my name once after marriage but also have changed it when I came over here when I was 16 & took over my Mum's new surname then. The other issue is I've now lost the original change of name deed but do have copies which I have sent in with my naturalisation app but now I am reading that PO can only accept originals. As I need to show proof for every change of name do I then do another deed poll just to support the change of name that happened years ago which I don't currently use now as I am married? I don't know what to do.
gemgirl23, about your papertrail problem, not sure another name change now will help to document a change made in the past.
I suppose you could look into swearing an affidavit now about that previous name change; suggest you'd need advice on whether it's worth it, but there is no specific mention in the guidance about the date of an affidavit.

Other suggestions
Just wondering if there is a central registry of name changes (deed polls)?
If so then maybe that agency can reissue another official copy of your previous name change made as a teenager?
Or, as you have a copy, you could try to trace the original lawyer or company who processed the deed for you (if they still exist)?

Do you have any other documents in the old surname too?
(eg old passports, any docs from or filed with original embassy, UKBA visa docs/correspondence &/or UK BRP id cards, driving licence, medical card, tax or NI or employment paperwork, school/college records or exam certificates, etc etc).
This would help contribute supporting evidence that you had that name at some point in time even if the original change of name deed is lost.

And, as you changed your name to match your mother's surname (at time of her marriage), can you get a copy of her marriage certificate to support your case?

The PO wants to see a clear papertrail, as explained in their document on Names;
Documents should be either the original, a certified copy issued by the Registry Office or a copy certified by a Solicitor, a Commissioner of Oaths, Notary of the Public or Justice of Peace. The following are all acceptable documents only if they show a clear link between the name shown on the root document, and the currentname. Where there has been more than one change of name the applicant should provide sufficient documentary evidence to show a clear link between the original name as shown on the root document and the current name.
Worth mentioning which copies of documents were previously accepted by the UK officials processing your previous visa and naturalisation applications.
Surely any/all supporting evidence you can find to fill in gaps (or compensate for missing originals), together with a clear supporting letter to explain the timeline & your various name changes, should help your case.

Also, if it's your first UK passport, you will be called for an interview so you will have a chance to speak in person to an official & to answer any specific questions the official may have about your identity. If you get stuck why not ask them to invite you for that interview.

Don't forget you can also seek help & advice at your local Citizen's Advice Bureau
(CAB - http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/a ... advice.htm)
or (maybe) at any community law centre where you live.

Good luck - Mabuhay 8)
Last edited by noajthan on Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:22 pm, edited 9 times in total.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

noajthan
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Re: Passport refused - uncancelled passport in maiden name

Post by noajthan » Mon Apr 06, 2015 11:22 am

Ref UK National Archives - about the (limited) official records of name changes (made in UK)...
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/reco ... f-name.htm

Interestingly it states:
It is still perfectly legal for anyone over the age of 16 to start using a new name at any time, as long as they are not doing so for a fraudulent or illegal reason.
A big difference from HM PO statements such as:
it is the policy of Her Majesty’s Passport office not to issue a passport when we are aware of a passport being held in another identity.
From CAB - about name changes, including rules for children (age under 16 versus over age of 16):
http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/r ... r_name.htm
Last edited by noajthan on Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Passport refused - uncancelled passport in maiden name

Post by noajthan » Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:23 pm

Ref a request, made in 2011 under FOI, for IPS (HM PO) passport-related documents...

'current operations manual' used by the Identity and Passport Service (IPS) in processing passport applications:

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... L.pdf.html

- page includes a PDF version which is easier to read:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... 0FINAL.pdf
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

Antsmall
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Re: Passport refused - uncancelled passport in maiden name

Post by Antsmall » Mon Apr 06, 2015 3:52 pm

Thanks, Noajthan. (As you can see, I'm checking this thread obsessively too).

So the crucial issue is whether this no-discrepancy rule still exists. Is it possible that it persists in some unpublished manual which the passport people are using, or in general that it is the current rule even if we don't know about it? How can we find out? Let's try.

(I did have some email back-and-forth - I live abroad with an eight-hour time difference, which hinders telephone conversations - with the HMPO and so far my detailed exposition of possible solutions has been answered only with a rather knee-jerk, possibly copy-pasted reply whose import is the same as what you and some others have had: it is against HMPO policy to emit a passport when they are aware that the applicant possesses another passport in a different identity).

Also, do we know how much discretion they have to override or disregard rules una tantum in view of overwhelming circumstances (e.g. foreign citizenship refuses categorically to change name on passport and person clearly, desperately and repeatedly displays incredibly obvious paper trail, thereby demonstrating the total absence of desire to commit fraud and nullifying the raison d'etre of the [putative] rule), or are their hands tied by the rules that they've previously generated for themselves?!

If the rule has survived the revocation of that 9 June 2014 document, like some unwholesome undead corpse which persists in haunting us, then can we find out if it applies only to overseas applications? (In which case I, who live abroad and was going to apply for registration by descent from my place of residence, shall be taking an extended holiday to the rocky island of my forefathers, while you should never have had the ghastly thing unleashed against you in the first place).

Shall we divide up the tasks in this quest/mission/adventure? I have already written to lawyers that came highly recommended, though it could be that they still aren't answering because it's Easter Monday. Essentially I've resolved to seek legal advice before proceeding any further with this (haven't yet made any applications, including citizenship applications). Do you want to make a freedom of information request asking if the no-discrepancy rule persists, and if so, where; whether discretionality to override this rule in cases of manifest paper traceability and absence of fraudulent intent exist nonetheless; how we can deploy a 'letter promising not to use the foreign passport', such as is mentioned at the bottom (save for my probably futile final post) of this thread
http://www.immigrationboards.com/britis ... 79624.html;
how this person https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... ication_on succeeded in receiving their passport after having exactly the same problem; and what avenues are available for people in our situation (unable to change name on foreign passport) to obtain a British passport in our married name?

Sorry, that was a long sentence.

I'm also wondering how the no-discrepancy rule (assuming for the sake of argument that it exists) would be used in cases of gender change. Britain allows gender change, including the assumption of the new gender (which probably also involved a new name) in a passport, but many nations do not allow any gender change at all. If, as is highly likely, a person is a dual national of a country which forbids gender change, will they be denied the right to go by their new name and, as the HMPO has been known to say, "identity" just because their less enlightened foreign country forces them to bear an identity which they do not feel is their own? Will Britain, in other words, discriminate against some of its own citizens, just because they hold another nationality - a right to which the powers that be have declared they have no objection - by bowing down to the inferior human-rights protections of another nation and denying those British citizens the full scope of the greater human-rights protections afforded by the UK? You can see how this unleashes a slew of unpleasant and, a few logical steps down the line, increasingly untenable implications. If the relevant authorities *will* disregard any putative no-discrepancy rule for people whose old foreign 'identity' includes not only a different name but also, a fortiori, a different gender (as they are likely to do because denying this right would make them look mightily archaic and cruel), being therefore amenable to disregarding a *far more substantial* discrepancy, then how can they justify nevertheless applying the very same rule in a draconian manner for those whose old foreign 'identity' includes *only a name*? See what I mean?

Sorry about the asterisks. I guess I should have used italics... always wary of using font thingies online in case they turn out looking funny and incomprehensible.

Please let me know how we can divide up the tasks (because it behooves us to be informed, since knowledge, as they say, is power), and meanwhile I'll update the thread if anything transpires, e.g. from these highly recommended lawyers. I'm not going down without a fight and I suspect the same of some or all of you.

Thanks again. Standing by.

noajthan
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Re: Passport refused - uncancelled passport in maiden name

Post by noajthan » Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:53 pm

Antsmall wrote:Thanks, Noajthan. (As you can see, I'm checking this thread obsessively too).

So the crucial issue is whether this no-discrepancy rule still exists. Is it possible that it persists in some unpublished manual which the passport people are using, or in general that it is the current rule even if we don't know about it? How can we find out? Let's try.

(I did have some email back-and-forth - I live abroad with an eight-hour time difference, which hinders telephone conversations - with the HMPO and so far my detailed exposition of possible solutions has been answered only with a rather knee-jerk, possibly copy-pasted reply whose import is the same as what you and some others have had: it is against HMPO policy to emit a passport when they are aware that the applicant possesses another passport in a different identity).

Also, do we know how much discretion they have to override or disregard rules una tantum in view of overwhelming circumstances (e.g. foreign citizenship refuses categorically to change name on passport and person clearly, desperately and repeatedly displays incredibly obvious paper trail, thereby demonstrating the total absence of desire to commit fraud and nullifying the raison d'etre of the [putative] rule), or are their hands tied by the rules that they've previously generated for themselves?!

If the rule has survived the revocation of that 9 June 2014 document, like some unwholesome undead corpse which persists in haunting us, then can we find out if it applies only to overseas applications? (In which case I, who live abroad and was going to apply for registration by descent from my place of residence, shall be taking an extended holiday to the rocky island of my forefathers, while you should never have had the ghastly thing unleashed against you in the first place).

Shall we divide up the tasks in this quest/mission/adventure? I have already written to lawyers that came highly recommended, though it could be that they still aren't answering because it's Easter Monday. Essentially I've resolved to seek legal advice before proceeding any further with this (haven't yet made any applications, including citizenship applications). Do you want to make a freedom of information request asking if the no-discrepancy rule persists, and if so, where; whether discretionality to override this rule in cases of manifest paper traceability and absence of fraudulent intent exist nonetheless; how we can deploy a 'letter promising not to use the foreign passport', such as is mentioned at the bottom (save for my probably futile final post) of this thread
http://www.immigrationboards.com/britis ... 79624.html;
how this person https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... ication_on succeeded in receiving their passport after having exactly the same problem; and what avenues are available for people in our situation (unable to change name on foreign passport) to obtain a British passport in our married name?

Sorry, that was a long sentence.

I'm also wondering how the no-discrepancy rule (assuming for the sake of argument that it exists) would be used in cases of gender change. Britain allows gender change, including the assumption of the new gender (which probably also involved a new name) in a passport, but many nations do not allow any gender change at all. If, as is highly likely, a person is a dual national of a country which forbids gender change, will they be denied the right to go by their new name and, as the HMPO has been known to say, "identity" just because their less enlightened foreign country forces them to bear an identity which they do not feel is their own? Will Britain, in other words, discriminate against some of its own citizens, just because they hold another nationality - a right to which the powers that be have declared they have no objection - by bowing down to the inferior human-rights protections of another nation and denying those British citizens the full scope of the greater human-rights protections afforded by the UK? You can see how this unleashes a slew of unpleasant and, a few logical steps down the line, increasingly untenable implications. If the relevant authorities *will* disregard any putative no-discrepancy rule for people whose old foreign 'identity' includes not only a different name but also, a fortiori, a different gender (as they are likely to do because denying this right would make them look mightily archaic and cruel), being therefore amenable to disregarding a *far more substantial* discrepancy, then how can they justify nevertheless applying the very same rule in a draconian manner for those whose old foreign 'identity' includes *only a name*? See what I mean?

Sorry about the asterisks. I guess I should have used italics... always wary of using font thingies online in case they turn out looking funny and incomprehensible.

Please let me know how we can divide up the tasks (because it behooves us to be informed, since knowledge, as they say, is power), and meanwhile I'll update the thread if anything transpires, e.g. from these highly recommended lawyers. I'm not going down without a fight and I suspect the same of some or all of you.

Thanks again. Standing by.
I had expected to hear from HM PO by now;
as I haven't received anything in writing yet I intend to call them up and ask directly about the status of our application - then go from there.

It may well come to a FOI request or even involving my MP (etc); will try to get a steer towards solving this discrepancy from the PO first.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

Antsmall
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Re: Passport refused - uncancelled passport in maiden name

Post by Antsmall » Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:43 pm

I for one will be anxiously waiting for what you discover.

Unfortunately I'm not in a position to call them because I live on the other side of the world and I'm chained to a 9-5 job (8-6 if you count the commute), so making international phone-calls during British office hours is not really feasible.

However, I will be having a phone consultation with a recommended lawyer in three weeks or so (it was the earliest appointment I could find) and I'll update this thread with any information I find.

Anxiously looking forward to whatever information you manage to unearth!

noajthan
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Re: Passport refused - uncancelled passport in maiden name

Post by noajthan » Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:18 am

Called passport help line (0300 222 0000) again.

Although helpful & patient the operator said he could not see specific details of the case
- he was able to confirm "it's been received & sent for processing";
- he also noted there was a 'query' (but said no details were visible to him on his system).

He has arranged a 'callback' from Durham office who will contact me;
- advised to expect this call back within 2 working days.

I have also filed a tracking request online at:
https://www.gov.uk/track-passport-application
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

Antsmall
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Re: Passport refused - uncancelled passport in maiden name

Post by Antsmall » Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:51 pm

I asked the passport people (by email) on which document is this alleged rule about name discrepancy, and they sent me a misspelt reply (two spelling errors in a two-sentence message: such are the arbiters of our fate) saying that they "can't" (they LOVE to claim that they "can't" do things) give me any details of policies as they are 'confidential documents'. When I asked about the letter about which we've been talking, whereby some people as recently as February 2015 have been allowed to get their passports anyway, they merely copy-pasted their previous reply (with spelling errors intact) about how they also "can't" issue a passport in a different name etc etc. They aren't answering my questions but merely copy-pasting the same negative and mindless response over and over again.

Don't you think it's dictatorial to deny people knowledge of the rules by which they are being judged? Does this really seem to be a feature of a democratic and free nation? I am really interested to know what other people think about this.

Anyway, my lawyer's phone consultation is in a little under two weeks (I think I said three last time, probably because it subjectively feels like an eternity) and I'll update the thread if I discover anything relevant. I really hope something can be done, though the absolutely robotic and rudimentary responses of the passport people don't bode well. I fear that no matter what rational and articulate lawyers we have and what unassailable arguments we produce, it's to no avail if the final judgement is from someone who does not (or, to use their favourite word, "can't") examine arguments and is impervious to reason - especially if their judgement is final and can't be overridden by that of a less rudimentary individual.

Looking forward to any information you might glean from your conversation with them during the promised 'callback'. Thanks again.

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Re: Passport refused - uncancelled passport in maiden name

Post by noajthan » Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:59 pm

Thanks for your news Antsmall, it chimes with this experience...

Callback
Was called by HM PO today.
The official was helpful, fairly open & patient to questioning.
Our case has been referred 'somewhere' (to some unit) for an 'opinion'; it was referred in mid-March & chased up (internally) in late March.
He apologised for the delay in this case & recommended I call back every 7-10 days to chase it.
(he said he's now also marked it for an increased priority of attention).

Status
He stated the situation is not an outright refusal to issue a British passport.

New policy
He stated there is a policy that prevents issuing a British passport in a new identity when any valid passport exists in another identity.
He did not identify the particular law or regulation :!:

Policy documents
He said they have regularly updated, internal policy documents that are not made public :!:
He was unable to confirm if this internal policy document was the now withdrawn June 2014 document; (Overseas Policy and Procedure Changes 9th June 2014, ie the one discussed earlier in this thread).
He reminded me there are public policy documents on the HM PO website, but commented that they made be out of date ( :!: ).

Q&A
I re-explained the situation from my viewpoint (& confirmed I had examined every document available on the HM PO website) & then followed up with some questions.

The official replied as follows:
he confirmed he recognised people in UK can have dual nationality;
he confirmed he recognised women in UK can & do have maiden names & can use them if they wish to;
he recognised we weren't fraudsters ( :!: ) or committing any offence ( :!: ) by my wife currently using her 2 names on various bank accounts, medical records, official documents & etc;
he acknowledged that, as per HM PO policy documents, an observation can be added to a British passport to note the use of a maiden name by a woman;
- he said doing this wouldn't help in our case (although it would make the 2nd name obvious);

He again summarised the position by stating the HM PO won't be issuing a British passport in a second identity.

What can I do
I asked if I could help by contacting the PH embassy;
my idea is to establish the actual status of my wife's uncancelled Filipino passport (which we believe is now null & void, as she is now a British citizen, & therefore is not in fact a valid identity/travel document anymore).
The official said it would not help as they have to wait on the reply to their internal enquiries.

Unfortunately I forgot to restate that, in my opinion (& in our case), the Filipino passport was now null & void and so could not be considered as a valid second identity.

Next steps
As I took the call at work, I also forgot to ask why the guidance (& NCS Post Office service) aren't more explicit & don't help on this topic of discrepancy of names/passports.
If such guidance was clearer at least some people could do something before they apply :!:

Will pick up on these points next time I call.

Next time, I also want to dig into the apparent incompatibility of this secret new identity policy compared to the UK naturalisation process which did accept (& approve) an application in a married name (supported by marriage certificate & identity documents in a maiden name) :!:

Wait & see
Finally, the official said we will receive further instructions or advice once the internal referrals have been completed;
he said it should be possible to continue with the current application rather than re-applying;
- at least it sounds like the time & cost of a second application may not be necessary, but for me the delay & inconvenience & inability to travel is more significant.

(again he recommended I call back every 7-10 days to chase the case)
Last edited by noajthan on Sat Apr 11, 2015 12:52 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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Antsmall
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Re: Passport refused - uncancelled passport in maiden name

Post by Antsmall » Fri Apr 10, 2015 5:14 pm

Thanks for taking the time to describe your experience. I'm so sorry that you are having to go through this.

It seems that they have become utterly obsessed with this 'second identity passport' thing even though this is absolutely useless, because they recognise second identities in each and every other ambit of life, which is why they allow 'also known as' notes - even for stage names, religious names and so on, which are far less 'robust' than married names as they are not supported by official documents! They are utterly permissive of name changes, allowing someone to change their name to F'tang F'tang Ole' Biscuitbarrel as a parliamentary candidate famously did, yet on this one tiny point they exhibit complete intransigence. It serves no concrete purpose. And by the way I know many dual nationals who have been renewing their British passports for decades in their married name while still keeping their other nationality's passport in their maiden name as per the laws of that country. Will there suddenly be a wave of passport rejections when all these people dutifully comply with the new intrusive regulations of showing all foreign passports upon applying to renew? Will only the people who are less honest and fail to show these passports be rewarded with a passport in the name of their choice, and the others be stuck in limbo? It seems that the only concrete function of this asinine regulation is to deny rights to the scrupulously honest. They're making sure to screen out the most honest, least fraudulent people.

I fear that I'll be forced to renounce my other nationality, of the country which, despite its idiotic rules regarding married names, accepted me from birth, unlike Britain which rejected me as an inferior being through no fault of my own even though my father is British-born and the family's genealogy is tied to the British Isles since time immemorial. It breaks my heart to have to choose between the country where I was born and grew up, of whose language I am a native speaker just as I am of English (and a far more proficient one than the passport people, mind you), and my husband and right to self-determination. It really breaks my heart.

Anyway, let's keep trying to find out what is going on. I can only hold out hope that the lawyers will come up with something.

noajthan
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Re: Passport refused - uncancelled passport in maiden name

Post by noajthan » Wed Apr 15, 2015 3:43 pm

Useful background info from a previous FOI request, see:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... ing-552095

- the same as a PDF file:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... attley.pdf

The above includes a link to this UK policy on foreign documents:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... uments.pdf

In none of the above can I see anything to explicitly justify refusing a passport due to either a married/maiden name discrepancy or due to the supposed creation of a second identity.
Last edited by noajthan on Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Passport refused - uncancelled passport in maiden name

Post by blueberry1986 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 4:29 pm

Wow this a very interesting and informative thread which I am glad I have clicked on.
I am getting married in August and my new husband and I will go on our honeymoon in December (to Philippines!)
I will have a passport from Canada in my maiden name but need the British passport to be issued in my married name as my partner has booked our airline tickets in the married name!
My Canadian passport expires in March 2016 and I was planning to renew it in January 2016 but looks like the british gvt is unlikely to issue me a british passport in my married name without the canadian one first being changed. Canadian authorities request a gvt issued ID in new name to change passport name, which I was planning to use the british passport for this!!
Nightmare

Antsmall
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Re: Passport refused - uncancelled passport in maiden name

Post by Antsmall » Wed Apr 15, 2015 4:51 pm

Interesting that this FOI request was granted while the passport office keeps telling me that I cannot see the policy because it is 'confidential'. Is that one of those 'exempt' materials that the FOI rules mention?

It is becoming increasingly clear that this new name rule, while serving no purpose in preventing alleged 'fraud' by people whose change to their married names is clearly documented and out in the open (and could even be stated explicitly on their British passports through a 'holder is also known as' note), is creating, and will continue to create, a nightmarish cascade of interlocking problems. For instance, what happens when all those dual nationals with countries which forbid married names, who have been peacefully renewing their British passports in their married names for decades, comply with the new 'show me the foreign passport' rule the next time they have to renew their British passports? Will there be a spate of refusals on this basis, meaning that suddenly a bunch of people with no criminal record are having their rights curtailed even though they peacefully exercised those rights before?

This rule is poorly thought out and they should have the maturity and coherence to revoke it. Not that I have a say in the matter, of course. And I fear that this business of 'royal prerogative' may place these rules outside the law.

By the way, here's a thought: restricting someone's rights (in this case, the right of all British citizens to control their own names) on the basis that they *might* commit fraud is more or less equivalent to punishing them before they have committed a crime; in other words, it reeks of the presumption of guilt, when the presumption of innocence is a basic principle of civilised legal systems. Punishing people for acts not yet committed (and probably never to be committed) is a totalitarian thing to do. Could we somehow get them to rescind the rule on this basis (presumption of guilt: you can't have self-determination because you *might* use it for fraud even though you haven't and may never do so) by citing its incompatibility with the presumption of innocence and the totalitarianism of taking away the rights of people who have not engaged in any wrongdoing? In other words, taking away long-standing rights willy nilly? Could there additionally be some angle whereby discriminating against people just because they hold another nationality (because those who are only British have their self-naming rights intact) goes against some principle of non-interference in dual nationality?

All we need is a permission of discretion - e.g. a note in this mysterious 'policy' (which we aren't allowed to see) which says 'where a person wants to add a married name and is a dual national of a country which forbids married names, if they have no criminal record and the connexion between maiden and married names is clearly documented, the passport will be granted in the name requested, but a note stating the maiden name will be placed in the passport' - or something of that nature. Then they can still weed out what they think are fraudulent name change requests (and by the way, it's not as if non-dual nationals can't ever have fraudulent intent in changing their names!!) without hindering ever-greater numbers of innocent people wishing to exercise their right of identity choice despite also being nationals of a country which denies them that choice. If not, Britain is bowing down to the inferior rights granted by those countries - a practice which opens up all sorts of unwelcome implications.

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Re: Passport refused - uncancelled passport in maiden name

Post by noajthan » Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:27 pm

blueberry1986 wrote:Wow this a very interesting and informative thread which I am glad I have clicked on.
I am getting married in August and my new husband and I will go on our honeymoon in December (to Philippines!)
I will have a passport from Canada in my maiden name but need the British passport to be issued in my married name as my partner has booked our airline tickets in the married name!
My Canadian passport expires in March 2016 and I was planning to renew it in January 2016 but looks like the british gvt is unlikely to issue me a british passport in my married name without the canadian one first being changed. Canadian authorities request a gvt issued ID in new name to change passport name, which I was planning to use the british passport for this!!
Nightmare
blueberry1986, glad this thread at least helped you to be forewarned.

I don't know much about it but there is a provision for obtaining a post-dated British passport in a married name; it is specifically for newly-weds.
I believe you have to be within 3 months of your marriage/name change to apply for that.
As it is a recognised scenario you may be ok - but do check & double-check :!:

If not, then to be on the safe side you could perhaps cancel your Canadian passport early;
(as per current UK guidance, cancelled passports do not have to be declared or submitted to the HM PO when applying for a British passport).
You could always reacquire a Canadian passport at a later date - when the dust has settled.

Alternately, due to your travel plans, you may need to think about changing the name on your ticket & (maybe) rely on your current passport for now.
Even if there's a fee involved it can't be worse than dealing with inflexible government agencies and the timelines for both naturalisation (?) & passport processing :!:

However, that may not work if you're already naturalised & living in the UK because you may not get back into UK on a Canadian passport (it won't show your right of abode in UK) ( :?: ).
In which case, if you have used your maiden name to naturalise then a British passport in maiden name should be no problem. (My daughter's first British passport was recently granted in approx 3 weeks, as no name change was involved).

Longer term name changes & overall passport strategy could then be handled sometime after your wedding & honeymoon.
PS May I recommend you check out the lovely islands of Cebu, Bohol and Palawan (in PH) for your honeymoon.
Last edited by noajthan on Wed Apr 15, 2015 7:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

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Re: Passport refused - uncancelled passport in maiden name

Post by noajthan » Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:47 pm

Antsmall wrote:Interesting that this FOI request was granted while the passport office keeps telling me that I cannot see the policy because it is 'confidential'. Is that one of those 'exempt' materials that the FOI rules mention?

It is becoming increasingly clear that this new name rule, while serving no purpose in preventing alleged 'fraud' by people whose change to their married names is clearly documented and out in the open (and could even be stated explicitly on their British passports through a 'holder is also known as' note), is creating, and will continue to create, a nightmarish cascade of interlocking problems. For instance, what happens when all those dual nationals with countries which forbid married names, who have been peacefully renewing their British passports in their married names for decades, comply with the new 'show me the foreign passport' rule the next time they have to renew their British passports? Will there be a spate of refusals on this basis, meaning that suddenly a bunch of people with no criminal record are having their rights curtailed even though they peacefully exercised those rights before?

This rule is poorly thought out and they should have the maturity and coherence to revoke it. Not that I have a say in the matter, of course. And I fear that this business of 'royal prerogative' may place these rules outside the law.

By the way, here's a thought: restricting someone's rights (in this case, the right of all British citizens to control their own names) on the basis that they *might* commit fraud is more or less equivalent to punishing them before they have committed a crime; in other words, it reeks of the presumption of guilt, when the presumption of innocence is a basic principle of civilised legal systems. Punishing people for acts not yet committed (and probably never to be committed) is a totalitarian thing to do. Could we somehow get them to rescind the rule on this basis (presumption of guilt: you can't have self-determination because you *might* use it for fraud even though you haven't and may never do so) by citing its incompatibility with the presumption of innocence and the totalitarianism of taking away the rights of people who have not engaged in any wrongdoing? In other words, taking away long-standing rights willy nilly? Could there additionally be some angle whereby discriminating against people just because they hold another nationality (because those who are only British have their self-naming rights intact) goes against some principle of non-interference in dual nationality?

All we need is a permission of discretion - e.g. a note in this mysterious 'policy' (which we aren't allowed to see) which says 'where a person wants to add a married name and is a dual national of a country which forbids married names, if they have no criminal record and the connexion between maiden and married names is clearly documented, the passport will be granted in the name requested, but a note stating the maiden name will be placed in the passport' - or something of that nature. Then they can still weed out what they think are fraudulent name change requests (and by the way, it's not as if non-dual nationals can't ever have fraudulent intent in changing their names!!) without hindering ever-greater numbers of innocent people wishing to exercise their right of identity choice despite also being nationals of a country which denies them that choice. If not, Britain is bowing down to the inferior rights granted by those countries - a practice which opens up all sorts of unwelcome implications.
Antsmall, I agree - this is exactly the type of common-sense policy that is required:
All we need is a permission of discretion - e.g. a note in this mysterious 'policy' (which we aren't allowed to see) which says 'where a person wants to add a married name and is a dual national of a country which forbids married names, if they have no criminal record and the connexion between maiden and married names is clearly documented, the passport will be granted in the name requested, but a note stating the maiden name will be placed in the passport' - or something of that nature.
And we've already heard of some degree of discretion that was recently being applied by the HM PO letters that 1 or 2 others reported they had received;
whereby they had to declare their intent to give up their 'offending' dual identity document asap.

btw - still waiting for our guidance or instructions to come in writing from HM PO.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

Antsmall
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Re: Passport refused - uncancelled passport in maiden name

Post by Antsmall » Wed Apr 15, 2015 6:09 pm

Blueberry1986,
blueberry1986 wrote:Canadian authorities request a gvt issued ID in new name to change passport name, which I was planning to use the british passport for this!!
If you are not yet a British citizen then it should be ok: surely the Canadians can let non-dual nationals (how to say - uninationals?) change their names without needing an ID from a foreign country?! If you're not yet a British citizen then I'd suggest dealing with the name change for Canada first and then registering or naturalising in your married name. They claim that they try to consider registration applications "quickly, usually within six months" (or words to that effect: it's a bit contradictory, like saying "it's mild, like a Scotch Bonnet pepper") so you might have to delay that until after your honeymoon, since it's hard to predict when one will get one's passport back after applying for citizenship. Or is it the case that you are already a citizen of both countries, and because you're a dual national, the Canadians won't grant you your married name unless you can prove that it already exists in your foreign citizenship? In which case, Canada and Britain are basically playing the same fun fun catch-22 game. Or they pre-wedding passport thing mentioned by noajthan may be ok unless they cross-fertilise it with the 'no name discrepancy with foreign passport' rule.

I wonder: is it possible to have one's foreign passport cancelled without at the same time having it renewed?

Noajthan,

When I mentioned the existence of the famous 'letters' described in other threads here (promising never to use the 'offending documents' or possibly abjure the foreign citizenship - it wasn't made clear), the HMPO people just robotically copy-pasted the same misspelt message that they'd already sent, namely that they 'can't' issue a passport if there is another passport with a different 'identity'. They didn't refer to this new piece of information (the letters, implying discretion) at all. They also repeated that they 'can't' show me the policy allegedly containing this no-discrepancy rule, but 'helpfully' sent me the link to the passport guidance pages which a) I'd already perused thoroughly about 812 times and b) don't mention the no-discrepancy rule. I've told them that the no-discrepancy rule doesn't appear in any of those materials, but I don't anticipate any progress on that front, because according to themselves, they can restrict our rights on the strength of unsubstantiated claims (in this case, their argument is essentially "there's proof, but I won't show you and there's nothing you can do about it because nanny nanny boo boo I'm bigger than you").

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Re: Passport refused - uncancelled passport in maiden name

Post by blueberry1986 » Thu Apr 16, 2015 8:47 am

Antsmall wrote:Blueberry1986,
blueberry1986 wrote:Canadian authorities request a gvt issued ID in new name to change passport name, which I was planning to use the british passport for this!!
If you are not yet a British citizen then it should be ok: surely the Canadians can let non-dual nationals (how to say - uninationals?) change their names without needing an ID from a foreign country?! If you're not yet a British citizen then I'd suggest dealing with the name change for Canada first and then registering or naturalising in your married name. They claim that they try to consider registration applications "quickly, usually within six months" (or words to that effect: it's a bit contradictory, like saying "it's mild, like a Scotch Bonnet pepper") so you might have to delay that until after your honeymoon, since it's hard to predict when one will get one's passport back after applying for citizenship. Or is it the case that you are already a citizen of both countries, and because you're a dual national, the Canadians won't grant you your married name unless you can prove that it already exists in your foreign citizenship? In which case, Canada and Britain are basically playing the same fun fun catch-22 game. Or they pre-wedding passport thing mentioned by noajthan may be ok unless they cross-fertilise it with the 'no name discrepancy with foreign passport' rule.

I wonder: is it possible to have one's foreign passport cancelled without at the same time having it renewed?

Noajthan,

When I mentioned the existence of the famous 'letters' described in other threads here (promising never to use the 'offending documents' or possibly abjure the foreign citizenship - it wasn't made clear), the HMPO people just robotically copy-pasted the same misspelt message that they'd already sent, namely that they 'can't' issue a passport if there is another passport with a different 'identity'. They didn't refer to this new piece of information (the letters, implying discretion) at all. They also repeated that they 'can't' show me the policy allegedly containing this no-discrepancy rule, but 'helpfully' sent me the link to the passport guidance pages which a) I'd already perused thoroughly about 812 times and b) don't mention the no-discrepancy rule. I've told them that the no-discrepancy rule doesn't appear in any of those materials, but I don't anticipate any progress on that front, because according to themselves, they can restrict our rights on the strength of unsubstantiated claims (in this case, their argument is essentially "there's proof, but I won't show you and there's nothing you can do about it because nanny nanny boo boo I'm bigger than you").
I am already a dual citizen,
I think I may be able to use my UK driving licence as an ID for the canadian authorities....they do not request all passports from other countries. Panic over!
goodluck to all.

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Re: Passport refused - uncancelled passport in maiden name

Post by noajthan » Thu Apr 16, 2015 3:20 pm

Update to my wife's case.

I phoned the Philippine embassy (London) to ask about my wife's current citizenship & status of her Filipino passport.
The embassy's passport department have confirmed verbally that:
as of the date of her UK naturalisation she is no longer a Filipino citizen
&
her Filipino passport is no longer valid & cannot be used;
(even though it's not 'cancelled' and it's still unexpired)

So it seems clear that if/when she is granted a British passport it is not actually creating a "new (second) identity" for her as she can no longer consider her Filipino passport to be a valid (first) identity document.

Just need to get this in writing & see if it can help move the case along.

If the HM PO will only agree then the obstacle blocking them issuing her with a British passport is removed :!:
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

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