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Penalty Notice Disorder effect Naturalisation?

A section for posts relating to applications for Naturalisation or Registration as a British Citizen. Naturalisation

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mumtos
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Penalty Notice Disorder effect Naturalisation?

Post by mumtos » Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:07 pm

Hi,
I have been issued a fixed penalty notice disorder (PND) for shoplifting ie £80(I have paid),which wasnt a shoplifting in actuall but just a missing payment for some item. Now I have to apply for naturalisation and I am very confused whether I have to disclose it on Form AN or not. Because as i am able to get is that its not a criminal conviction and was not issued in court.
I have asked too many people but nobody has given me a satisfactory answer. I am worried because if i donot disclose it,is it a crime?
And If I disclose it,do i need to write all the details? and how will it effect the decision of my application?
any answers would be greatly appreciated please..

f2k
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Post by f2k » Thu Sep 02, 2010 3:59 pm

was this issued in court. if not then ignore it

Kitty
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Post by Kitty » Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:01 pm

IMO this is a confusing issue, because although there is obviously no obligation to disclose a PND as a criminal conviction, the question remains whether it should be disclosed as something else that might call the applicant's "good character" into question.

The UKBA does have access to the Police National Computer, and as I understand it, PNDs are recorded there.

THe Nationality Instructions also say that although minor convictions may be disregarded, offences involving "dishonesty" (such as theft) will be ignored only rarely. This suggests to me that a PND for shoplifting would be considered relevant to good character, even if it wouldn't automatically result in a refusal.

If the fine was recent, then I would be cautious. If you can explain the circumstances, then personally I would do so.

mumtos
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Post by mumtos » Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:42 pm

Hi,thanks f2k and kitty..
the fine wasnt issued in the court. It was issued just on the spot.

Yes kitty,you are right ,and thts what bothering me alot that the guidence notes says that theft is not a minor offence. In that case I think I have to disclose it but I am worried about the effect of this on my application..

It wasnt actually a theft..It was a terrible accident that happend to me.,like i forgot to pay for an item and got cought on the main door as alram rang and the security called the police,,whereas i was ready to pay for the item but they never listend to me. It was a first and last mistake I made in my entire life. an am still in shock :oops:

I am so worried and dnt know how to explain this in my application form so they can ignore this.

please tell me what would be the outcome???

I am willing to disclose it but am sooooo scared... :cry:

Backer
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Post by Backer » Fri Sep 03, 2010 3:56 am

Since the fine was not issued in court I'm not sure this is considered a conviction and in anyy case I think you stand good chance.

If you mentioned this in your application the worst that could happen is that you will be refused, loose your application fee and advised to apply when the fine is spent. However if you conceal it there is a chance the HO will think you are trying to use deception which is far worse.

mumtos
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Post by mumtos » Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:14 am

is there any chance that it could be ignored and they approve my application??

does anybody know about the similar case and what was the outcome???

I never know that fine could also be spent????? could you plz tell me what is the time period for fine to be spent?????

how should I explain this in my application??? do I need to attach a formal covering letter to explain everything or simply mention it in the application form in 2 lines???

Please help..

thanks

Kitty
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Post by Kitty » Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:54 am

Backer wrote:Since the fine was not issued in court I'm not sure this is considered a conviction and in anyy case I think you stand good chance.
You're right: it's not a conviction so it doesn't have to be disclosed under section 3.6 of the application form.

The difficulty is section 3.12, which asks "Have you engaged in any other activities which might indicate that you may not be considered a person of good character". It's an incredibly vague question.

The guidance on "Good Character" (Annex D of the Nationality Instructions Chapter 18) says that caseworkers should:
not normally consider applicants to be of good character if, for example, there is information to suggest:

a. They have not respected, and/or are not prepared to abide by the law (i.e. they have been convicted of a crime or there are reasonable grounds to suspect (i.e. it is more likely than not) they have been involved in crime)...
The whole point of a PND is that the police must have some grounds to issue it: normally "reasonable grounds to suspect" whatever it is you get the fine for.
If you mentioned this in your application the worst that could happen is that you will be refused, loose your application fee and advised to apply when the fine is spent. However if you conceal it there is a chance the HO will think you are trying to use deception which is far worse.
I agree. If the PND was recent, I would disclose what happened and set out all the mitigating circumstances. Failure to declare it at all could cast doubt on your truthfulness in general.

mumtos
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Post by mumtos » Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:34 pm

The whole point of a PND is that the police must have some grounds to issue it: normally "reasonable grounds to suspect" whatever it is you get the fine for.
But as far as I know PND is not admission of crime. Its just to deal out of court for not so serious crimes.
I agree. If the PND was recent, I would disclose what happened and set out all the mitigating circumstances. Failure to declare it at all could cast doubt on your truthfulness in general.
what could be mitigating circumstances to mention in my case????
could you please guide me on this??

Backer
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Post by Backer » Fri Sep 03, 2010 2:58 pm

Mumtos - You do not have a court conviction so assuming you don't have anything else on record your application shoud be succesful. Even if you would have had a court conviction it would have been a minor offence.

There is no guarantee but the chances are good. Just mention your PND in your application and if you like explain your circumstances.

m37tjx
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Post by m37tjx » Fri Sep 03, 2010 3:17 pm

every one has their own openion,, if your penlty was issued on the spot and you paid it.. thats fine but it will remain on thier datebase for 6years.. .. what ever was the reason you hsould have approached to court, by paying penelty without pleaing you admitted your crime. now you did one crime.. if you hide these information you will commite another crime and then their things will turn against you so it is a chance but now a days they are throughly checking the applications. i think you should write and put on the seprate sheet (full information)

i hope it will be satisfactory

regards

soulfullness
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Post by soulfullness » Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:22 pm

Hi
When i see this thread I feel I should also clarify one incident. Once there was a spot fine for throwing a cigreete butt and I paid the fine. Is it required to mention this on MN form when applying for naturalisation . I put this in a separate topic but no responce . Pl reply

Regards

Kitty
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Post by Kitty » Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:01 pm

soulfullness, I think your case is different to mumtos' because littering isn't an offence involving "dishonesty".

You don't have to disclose it as a criminal conviction, because it wasn't, and I don't think that it is something that calls your "good character" into question either.

shivuu006
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Post by shivuu006 » Fri Sep 24, 2010 3:06 pm

guys

just to let you know i was also in similar situation where i received a FP notice as unfortunately i missed scanning an item in a shop. i haven't declared the FP in my application for naturlization and my application was successful. I applied on 1st Sep 2010 and received approval today (24/09)
However just in case, I did a SAR on PND and there is no information about this notice.

cheers

mumtos
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Post by mumtos » Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:04 pm

shivuu006 wrote:guys

just to let you know i was also in similar situation where i received a FP notice as unfortunately i missed scanning an item in a shop. i haven't declared the FP in my application for naturlization and my application was successful. I applied on 1st Sep 2010 and received approval today (24/09)
However just in case, I did a SAR on PND and there is no information about this notice.

cheers
Hi, can you tell me plz when did u get the penalty notice exactly?
and also what is SAR??? PND is a police check,is it???

mumtos
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Post by mumtos » Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:54 pm

yipeeeeeeeeeee!
i am soo excited cuz i just recieved my approval letter of citizenship...it was really nice of all of u who gave me their suggestions and advices....I was sooo worried about my application..however it took much looonger than normal but its decided in my favour which is great....
Just to let you know one more thing that yes i did mention about my penalty notice on my application and gave detailed note that it wasnt shoplifting as i mentioned earlier because i think we have to be honest...and i really appreciate how understanding the HO has been..

well just waiting for my citizenship ceremony and then passport and than i can flyyyyyyyyyyy anywhere in the worrrrrrrrrrrlddd...!
yaaaaaaaaaaaay!

thanx all!

avjones
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Post by avjones » Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:57 pm

Congratulations!

I think it would have been much worse if you'd not declared it.
I am not, and cannot, offer legal advice to particular people. I can only discuss general areas of immigration law.

People should always consider obtaining professional advice about their own particular circumstances.

asp
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Post by asp » Sat Oct 30, 2010 5:31 pm

In my experience by far the best policy is to declare these things. If the incident is one over which caseworkers have discretion they generally apply it reasonably. If you declare the incident and they allow your application you can forget about it affecting you in future, at least for the Home Office.

If you keep quiet and hope HO don't find out that, in itself, puts you at a disadvantage. A PND isn't the same as a conviction but it might well call into question whether you are a person of good character. If you then conceal that fact and are found out you also have to explain away why you didn't disclose it. At that point you really do start to look dishonest!

Swamp the caseworker within information as there is no way they can accuse you of concealing anything. Your application will take longer to be dealt with, as it won't be a "tick and turn" case but don't start thinking that the delay implies you will be refused.

I hope you enjoy your citizenship ceremony.

applekumar
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I have been given a fixed penality notice of £80

Post by applekumar » Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:04 am

HEY GUYS I REALLY NEED YOUR HELP, I HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING THE ABOVE DISCUSSION. AND I ALSO HAVE SAME CASE LIKE MUMTOES. I HAVE PAYED 80£ PENALTY CHARGE TO OFFICER AND NOT IN COURT FOR MY ACTIONS OF SHOP LIFTING. THIS HAD HAPPENED COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO.

I AM APPLYING FOR TIER ONE VISA NEXT MONTH TO STAY IN UK FOR BUSINESS OPPORTUNITIES. PLEASE HELP ME ON WHAT SHOULD I BE MENTIONING ON MY APPLICATION FORM UNDER CRIMINAL CONVICTIONS- DO I SAY I WAS CHARGED PENALTY AMOUNT OF £80 BECAUSE I SHOP LIFTED? IF I SAY THIS WILL UKBA CONSIDER MY APPLICATION?

PLEASE HELP ME ON THIS. ITS REALLY IMPORTANT FOR ME. I JUST HAVE 9 DAYS LEFT TO MAKE MY APPLICATION.

PLZZ HELP ME

mcovet
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Post by mcovet » Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:18 pm

the guy above shouldnt have gotten naturalised as thieves are not of good character. u dont just get a pcn for shoplifting, the shop.must have proof and u can always dispute it if it were a misinderstanding. if cctg clearly shows u picking up goods and looking around etc obviously acting dishonestly u r then issued a pcn. so those idiots who.have an application to submit and steal do not deserve it but alas the ukba cannot be bothered with so many applications and no kniwledge of the law. theft is dishonesty how on earth can that be minor? and police prefer to issie pcn as it is.easier to talk.the criminal into accepting it then prosecuting and also more difficult to convict. anyway mate, do whatever u want but just dont come here for help when u accept a.fine for.theft. hate modern morals!!!

p.s. stop writing in capitals, my ears hurt

applekumar
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Post by applekumar » Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:56 pm

Hey bro, I am sorry for mentioning wrong word as SHOP LIFTING. I didnt not shoplift, there was one particular item which was not scanned and while exit it got alarmed. So the client took their good back and informed cope who was already at the store for a different case. The cope just wrote a penalty slip and gave me and I agreed to pay because I didnt want to create any scene for myself and get embrassed at the store front of so many people. The cope wasn't called for my particulare case. It was my unforuntate that cope was at the store for a different case. I am really sorry, if you still feel I shoudnt be given an chance or concern on this forum to get a opinion.

I am a graduate student and above to start my career now in professional world. I don't want to have this sort of start where I am rejected for dishonesty.

If you still feel I am at the fault~?

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