British National spouse and family permit

daddy · Post by **daddy** » Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:30 pm

I am a non eu, spouse of British National excersing her treaty right in Ireland republic as a student, can I qualify for family permit to visit UK for one week.

I have EU Family Residence Card here in Ireland, also my daughter is eu citizen (Irish)

I visited UK for 2 weeks with my wife and daughter with my Ressidence Card and passport but was made to wait for about 35 minutes by an Immigration Officer at port of entry but finally was allowed to go in, but was asked to apply for Family Permit next time. Can someone help me with advices.

I do not want to be refused, my wife is a student here and not a worker.

Daddy.

daddy · Post by **daddy** » Sun May 01, 2011 10:16 pm

Can someone please comment on this topic, thanks.

Daddy.

Nimitta · Post by **Nimitta** » Mon May 02, 2011 8:58 am

daddy wrote:I am a non eu, spouse of British National excersing her treaty right in Ireland republic as a student, can I qualify for family permit to visit UK for one week.

I have EU Family Residence Card here in Ireland, also my daughter is eu citizen (Irish)

I visited UK for 2 weeks with my wife and daughter with my Ressidence Card and passport but was made to wait for about 35 minutes by an Immigration Officer at port of entry but finally was allowed to go in, but was asked to apply for Family Permit next time. Can someone help me with advices.

I do not want to be refused, my wife is a student here and not a worker.

Daddy.

The main question here is "Are you going to travel alone?" The point is that in order to exercise Treaty rights you have to travel with your wife (EU citizen) or join her in the country of destination. Since, as far I understand, she remains in Ireland and you are planning to travel alone, you cannot neither go without visa as you did the previous time (it will NOT work this time), neither can you apply for EEA FP (you have no right to apply for it). You will have to apply for a visa as citizens of you country of origin do. The same rules, the same fees, the same requirements, the same difficulties etc.

You have

daddy · Post by **daddy** » Mon May 02, 2011 2:51 pm

Nimitta wrote:
daddy wrote:I am a non eu, spouse of British National excersing her treaty right in Ireland republic as a student, can I qualify for family permit to visit UK for one week.

I have EU Family Residence Card here in Ireland, also my daughter is eu citizen (Irish)

I visited UK for 2 weeks with my wife and daughter with my Ressidence Card and passport but was made to wait for about 35 minutes by an Immigration Officer at port of entry but finally was allowed to go in, but was asked to apply for Family Permit next time. Can someone help me with advices.

I do not want to be refused, my wife is a student here and not a worker.

Daddy.
The main question here is "Are you going to travel alone?" The point is that in order to exercise Treaty rights you have to travel with your wife (EU citizen) or join her in the country of destination. Since, as far I understand, she remains in Ireland and you are planning to travel alone, you cannot neither go without visa as you did the previous time (it will NOT work this time), neither can you apply for EEA FP (you have no right to apply for it). You will have to apply for a visa as citizens of you country of origin do. The same rules, the same fees, the same requirements, the same difficulties etc.

You have

I always travel with my wife, and plan to travel again with her.

I was instrusted by the uk immigration officer to apply for fermily permit next time I travel to uk.

UK border agency website says that for British national to return to UK with his/her spouse after exercising his/her treaty right in another eu member state, he/she must have worked or selfemployed in that member state prior to returning to Uk, but my wife is exercising her treaty right as a student, we visited UK together for 2 weeks and returned back to Ireland, my passport was not stamped.

My question is this, we are NOT planing to return to Uk, we only want to visit again and return to Ireland.

I am worried that if I apply for family permit, they may refuse, quoting the above passage on their website.

Please, your suggestions would help.
Daddy.

Post by **geriatrix** » Mon May 02, 2011 4:37 pm

If you wish to only "visit" UK, you do not qualify for EEA family permit.

I am a British citizen. Can my family members apply for an EEA family permit to join me in the UK? wrote: .... if a British citizen is living in another EEA country, their non-EEA family members can apply for an EEA family permit to join them on their return to the UK.

Post by **vinny** » Mon May 02, 2011 5:38 pm

I don't think that the British citizen may be treated as an EEA national because 9(2) isn't satisfied by a student.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Mon May 02, 2011 10:49 pm

It is a very good and deep question.

If you read the rational of ECJ case Singh, a core part of the logic of the decision is that Eu nationals would not go to other member states if they could not later return easily to their home with their family members.

Surinder Singh (Case C-370/90 The Queen v Immigration Appeal Tribunal et Surinder Singh, ex parte Secretary of State for Home Department)

23 However, this case is concerned not with a right under national law but with the rights of movement and establishment granted to a Community national by Articles 48 and 52 of the Treaty. These rights cannot be fully effective if such a person may be deterred from exercising them by obstacles raised in his or her country of origin to the entry and residence of his or her spouse. Accordingly, when a Community national who has availed himself or herself of those rights returns to his or her country of origin, his or her spouse must enjoy at least the same rights of entry and residence as would be granted to him or her under Community law if his or her spouse chose to enter and reside in another Member State. ...

That is true also in this case - namely the husband and wife would like to return to the UK for a short visa. I think you may have a pretty strong case for a short visit visa. You can explain your justification for issuing the visa when you apply, or IF you get turned down, you could make this part of your appeal.

Post by **Obie** » Tue May 03, 2011 12:28 am

As things stand, you will not qualify for EEA Family permit under regulation 9(2), as has already been pointed out, you wife is not exercising treaty rights in an economic capacity. As you have a child who is both British and Irish, you might have a strong case for EEA Family permit under Zambrano or chen. This would be much stronger than fighting under regulation 9, even though i believe its narrowed scope may not be compatible with community law at this present time

Post by **vinny** » Tue May 03, 2011 3:14 am

Probably not worth the hassle for a one-week visit.

daddy · Post by **daddy** » Tue May 03, 2011 11:36 am

Thanks for all your replies, I dont want to be refused and have that recorded against my name, I rather travel with my family the way we did last time.

But do you think that I qualify to apply for a family permit to visit UK for a week based on my daughter(child) who is an Irish citizen?.
Thanks.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Tue May 03, 2011 11:40 am

daddy wrote:Thanks for all your replies, I dont want to be refused and have that recorded against my name, I rather travel with my family the way we did last time.

But do you think that I qualify to apply for a family permit to visit UK for a week based on my daughter(child) who is an Irish citizen?.
Thanks.

Being refused is not really a problem as a family member under EU rules. Although I understand the desire to have "zero refusals..."

I guess your daughter is both Irish and British. An earlier replier to your messages said "you might have a strong case for EEA Family permit under Zambrano or Chen". Chen would be based on Irish citizenship and Zambrano would be based on British citizenship.

Also, does your wife work at all for money, even part time in Ireland? Or is she just studying?

daddy · Post by **daddy** » Wed May 04, 2011 3:56 pm

My wife only studies.

Please, one more question,
Do non eu parents of eu citizen child have authomatic right of entry and residence in another eu member state, unlike a spouse of eu citizen as written in the directives 38/EC/2004.

Thanks.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Thu May 05, 2011 2:49 pm

daddy wrote:Do non eu parents of eu citizen child have authomatic right of entry and residence in another eu member state, unlike a spouse of eu citizen as written in the directives 38/EC/2004.

Is your daughter both Irish and British? And born in Ireland?

Don't think anything is automatic in life, but let me rephrase my earlier posting.

An earlier replier to your messages said "you might have a strong case for EEA Family permit under Zambrano or Chen".

Chen would be based on daughter's Irish citizenship and would be valid for applications in any EU member state except Ireland. You could not work but could stay there.

Zambrano would be based on daughter's British citizenship. You could live and work in UK, I believe, though I have not looked into Zambrano enough. Does it apply if daughter was born outside UK? Not sure...

daddy · Post by **daddy** » Sat May 07, 2011 1:34 pm

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:
daddy wrote:Do non eu parents of eu citizen child have authomatic right of entry and residence in another eu member state, unlike a spouse of eu citizen as written in the directives 38/EC/2004.
Is your daughter both Irish and British? And born in Ireland?

Don't think anything is automatic in life, but let me rephrase my earlier posting.

An earlier replier to your messages said "you might have a strong case for EEA Family permit under Zambrano or Chen".

Chen would be based on daughter's Irish citizenship and would be valid for applications in any EU member state except Ireland. You could not work but could stay there.

Zambrano would be based on daughter's British citizenship. You could live and work in UK, I believe, though I have not looked into Zambrano enough. Does it apply if daughter was born outside UK? Not sure...

My daughter was born in Ireland, she has Irish passport, her mum(my wife) is British, we have not applied for a British passport yet for our daughter, she is entitle to it because he mother is a British citizen, born in England.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Sat May 07, 2011 2:53 pm

daddy wrote:My daughter was born in Ireland, she has Irish passport, her mum(my wife) is British, we have not applied for a British passport yet for our daughter, she is entitle to it because he mother is a British citizen, born in England.

So you daughter is definitely British and Irish. Passport is just a travel document, and a convenient way to demonstrate citizenship.

There are a number of options open to you, but you earlier said you did not want any chance of rejection.

The only way of having "no chance of rejection" is if your wife works in Ireland in the future. Or if she worked in the past in Ireland in some capacity.

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British National spouse and family permit

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