Can a British citizen in the UK claim to be, say, Turkish?

Richard66 · Post by **Richard66** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:56 am

My question is very simple (for once ):

Can a British citizen who is also a citizen of country C (non EEA) claim to be a citizen of this country C when dealing with the British authorities or is this British citizen always viewed by the British government as exclusively British?

I excude from this question the case of Irish/British citizens in regard to treaty rights.

I placed this question before, but apparently no one saw it.

paulp · Post by **paulp** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:15 am

You can say anything as long as it's true, but you can't say that you're NOT British. Whether you can use you're country C citizenship depends on the circumstances.

sakura · Post by **sakura** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:36 am

Richard66 wrote:My question is very simple (for once ):

Can a British citizen who is also a citizen of country C (non EEA) claim to be a citizen of this country C when dealing with the British authorities or is this British citizen always viewed by the British government as exclusively British?

I excude from this question the case of Irish/British citizens in regard to treaty rights.

I placed this question before, but apparently no one saw it.

I don't know if it directly answers your question, but when, for example, a dual national enters one of their countries, they are regarded solely as a citizen of that country for juridical purposes, and cannot call on their other country of citizenship for diplomatic/other assistance.

e.g. you are Brazilian and British. You enter Brazil (on your Brazilian passport, if it is a legal requirement there). As you are a Brazilian citizen, you cannot seek assistance from the British diplomatic services, because you are seen as a Brazilian citizen in his country of citizenship. See here.

But, I know, that is for foreign relations, so not directly related to your question. But it would be quite difficult, would it not, for a country to disregard you as a citizen in that country? What if the 'other' country is a visa-requiring country? You cannot claim to live in the UK based on being a BC but then want to be treated as a non-BC.

Mr Rusty · Post by **Mr Rusty** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:40 am

"I placed this question before, but apparently no one saw it."

Perhaps no-one saw the point of it. Is there any, relevant to immigration matters?

Richard66 · Post by **Richard66** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:00 am

Very relevant. In my case I live in Italy and am a British citizen by descent. I am trying to figure out this out for the purposes of declaring my child stateless and then applying for British citizenship (the mother cannot pass her citizenship and jus solis is not in this case applicable).

Logic tells me that the UK can only consider me as a British citizen and that it would ber strange if, for the purposes of attributing citizenship to my child they should consider me as non-British also.

Thanks, Sakura. I highlight this point:

You cannot claim to live in the UK based on being a BC but then want to be treated as a non-BC.

My big question is this one:

If I claim to live in the UK based on being a Brazilian I cannot want to be treated as an American can I then live in Italy based on being British but then want to be treated as a Brazilian or American?

thsths · Post by **thsths** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:39 am

Richard66 wrote:Very relevant. In my case I live in Italy and am a British citizen by descent. I am trying to figure out this out for the purposes of declaring my child stateless and then applying for British citizenship (the mother cannot pass her citizenship and jus solis is not in this case applicable).

I guess the basic question is: is the child stateless? If you other citizenship passes on automatically, it is not. Once your child is stateless (without fault!), the UK would have to act - and they cannot hide behind your other citizenship, I would think.

If I claim to live in the UK based on being a Brazilian I cannot want to be treated as an American can I then live in Italy based on being British but then want to be treated as a Brazilian or American?

I think the citizenship of your child has nothing to do with how you got your residence in Italy. Different law, different authorities.

sakura · Post by **sakura** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:43 pm

Richard66 wrote:My big question is this one:

If I claim to live in the UK based on being a Brazilian I cannot want to be treated as an American can I then live in Italy based on being British but then want to be treated as a Brazilian or American?

In which ways would you want to be treated as a Brazilian or an American? If your entry is based on being an EU citizen, then residency up to this point is based on your right as a BC. However, since this question is entering the domain of national immigration legislation (as it concerns non-EU citizen's right of residency) I doubt there would be any clear answer.

But, as thsths has written, this would not change the situation of your child. I think this matter would be resolved by having the baby in the UK (or N. Ireland if you're party to Irish citizenship...), and that would be a rather straightforward procedure, excepting the possibility (which is quite likely) of having to pay for the delivery and any follow-up service(s)

Richard66 · Post by **Richard66** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:12 pm

When I contact the British government can they tell me that my child, the child of a BC, will not be a BC because I (and not the child) also possess another citizenship besides BC and that, in their view, the child will follow my other citizenship jus sanguinis?

The thing is, The Italians apparently will not accept my using my Brazilian citizenship to register our child as my claim for residence in Italy is based on the fact I am a BC, rendering the child, for the puposes of the Italian administration, as being either British, Russian or stateless. Now, if the British follow the same rule, we can claim British citizenship for the child, as he will be stateless. If the British claim the child is not stateless, because he is Brazilian, we might manage to make him Italian.

I wonder how my renouncing Brazilian citizenship will change things? The Brazilian consulate mentioned that possibility.

Sakura, how much will delivery in the UK cost? We struggle to pay our bills and delivery in the UK will not be covered by the Italian health authorities. It would be if she were the BC and I the Russian or if I were resident in the UK, but, since her right of residence in Italy derives from my residence, this seems to be out.

thsths · Post by **thsths** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:23 pm

Richard66 wrote:WThe thing is, The Italians apparently will not accept my using my Brazilian citizenship to register our child as my claim for residence in Italy is based on the fact I am a BC, rendering the child, for the puposes of the Italian administration, as being either British, Russian or stateless.

The Italian administration has nothing to do with the nationality of the child. That is between an issue you have to work out between the child and the respective consulates. Have a look at the Brazilian nationality law - if you renounce your Brazilian nationality before birth, it may not pass on to the child. Same for Russia.

Anyway, even if you do not get a European citizenship now, you can usually register the child. If you stay in Europe, the child should be able to get a European citizenship after a few years. Of course the details differ a lot between countries, so that is also something to check out.

Mr Rusty · Post by **Mr Rusty** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:48 pm

"I wonder how my renouncing Brazilian citizenship will change things? The Brazilian consulate mentioned that possibility."

Do you think it would? If you were unable to transmit your nationality for whatever reason, wouldn't the Italians (and the Brits) just turn to the mother's nationality?

If you've no reason to come to the UK other than to confer British nationality on an as yet unborn child, and you will be jeopardising your finances, it seems rather extreme to do so. As thsths has pointed out, you should be able to register the child within a few years, and being able to pick between Brazilian, Russian and Italian doesn't seem bad.

It doesn't seem any big deal to be British any more, even if we have a Prime Minister who claims he's saving the world.

"When I contact the British government can they tell me that my child, the child of a BC, will not be a BC because I (and not the child) also possess another citizenship besides BC and that, in their view, the child will follow my other citizenship jus sanguinis?"

They would tell you, surely, that being British by descent, you can not pass this on to your child if it is born outside the UK.

sakura · Post by **sakura** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:10 pm

Richard66 wrote:Sakura, how much will delivery in the UK cost? We struggle to pay our bills and delivery in the UK will not be covered by the Italian health authorities. It would be if she were the BC and I the Russian or if I were resident in the UK, but, since her right of residence in Italy derives from my residence, this seems to be out.

I don't know the NHS policy on non-resident UK citizens, but I imagine you would have to pay...

Back to square one...

paulp · Post by **paulp** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:07 pm

Will your child be stateless if born in Italy? As you have resided there more than 5 years, will your child not be born an italian citizen?

paulp · Post by **paulp** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:12 pm

Anyway, if the child is born stateless in Italy, it will acquire Italian citizenship.

Richard66 · Post by **Richard66** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:12 pm

I don't know the NHS policy on non-resident UK citizens, but I imagine you would have to pay...

I do have a NI card, but if I can use it... I belive this is called benefit fraud, is it not?

Officially resident in Italy since January 2006.

Anyway, I have just received confirmation that for the Italians I have only one citizenship: British. I believe the same applies for the UK. While the UK may informally accept the fact I have dual citizenship, it cannot actually deny a request for registration by entitlement for our child because they formally accept that I have dual citizenship.

What I am driving at is that if the British governement views me as exclusively British the problem is non-existent, because the child will formally be born stateless, even if it does have a claim to Brazilian citizenship, because the British cannot treat me as having also a non-British citizenship. Ergo, I cannot be expected to transmit to my child a citizenship they cannot legally recognise I possess.

Anyway, if the child is born stateless in Italy, it will acquire Italian citizenship.

I wish it were that easy, but it must be proved he cannot acquire his mother's citizenship in any way. But the child can, provided we can prove to the Russians that the child can acquire no other citizenship.

Richard66 · Post by **Richard66** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:28 pm

This paragraph, then, taken from

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/briti ... documents/
Guide to form S2

that the applicant has been stateless from birth. For example, a letter from the authorities in the country in which he/she was born, stating that he/she is not, and never has been, a citizen of that country.

of the citizenship or status of the applicant's mother or father. This may include, for example:
* the parent's birth certificate
* any certificate of registration or naturalisation
* any passports or official letters which show the parent's citizenship or status at any time.

If either of your parents holds a non-British nationality, a letter from the authorities of the country concerned saying that you have never held that country's citizenship or nationality.

If you have lived for period of 5 years or more outside the United Kingdom, outside the territory where you were born and outside any country of which either of your parents is a citizen or national, a letter from the authorities of that country of residence saying you have
never held that country's citizenship or nationality.

NB: If your parents hold different non-British citizenships or nationalities, or either of them holds more than one citizenship or nationality, you will need to get letters from all of the countries concerned [stating statelessness]. Similarly, if you have resided for 5 years or more in more than one country, you will need to get letters of confirmation from all of the countries concerned.

in the NB above it seems to say that only non-British parents can claim to have more than one citizenship. They say so in the frst case but seems to omit the "non-British" in the second. I would say the second case refers to the non-British parent.

If my reasoning is sound the child will be able to be registered as a British citizen by entitlement.

paulp · Post by **paulp** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 4:17 pm

Richard, you seem to be missing the BIGGEST PROBLEM, you are a British Citizen BY DESCENT. That means you CANNOT PASS ON CITIZENSHIP if the child is not born in the UK (and a few territories).

If the child is born stateless, he/she can acquire BC from the parent but pray that the UK doesn't tell you it was by your design by giving up your Brazilian citizenship.

It looks in all probability that the child will be Brazilian unless you give it up.

Richard66 · Post by **Richard66** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:38 pm

What I am trying to fathom is: can the British government in this case consider me as possessing more than one citizenship?

When I was born I was given Brazilian citizenship jus solis, so my parent's status did not come into it. In this case the child will become Brazilian jus sanguinis, so, yes, my other citizenship does come into it.

If the child is born stateless, he/she can acquire BC from the parent but pray that the UK doesn't tell you it was by your design by giving up your Brazilian citizenship.

Do you mean they might say I renounced my citizenship in order to force things and that, therefore, they will not grant citizenship? I thought that one too.

The funny thing is that to register the child as a Brazilian we need a document from the Russian authorities and, as my wife wants to naturalise the child Russian and in so doing it will lose Brazilian citizenship.

It's a mad world.

Richard66 · Post by **Richard66** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:54 pm

Let me be positive, boys: I am going for na interview on 9 January with Eures to see if I can go and wash dishes in London for a month or two.

paulp · Post by **paulp** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:06 pm

Richard66 wrote:What I am trying to fathom is: can the British government in this case consider me as possessing more than one citizenship?

When I was born I was given Brazilian citizenship jus solis, so my parent's status did not come into it. In this case the child will become Brazilian jus sanguinis, so, yes, my other citizenship does come into it.

The UK, unlike other countries like the US, does officially recognise multiple citizenships. So, yes, they will see you as British by descent, Brazilian, etc.

If you do give up your Brazilian Citizenship: as with Russia and Italy who will want proof that the baby is stateless before giving citizenship to your baby, the UK will also be in the same camp. You'll probably have a field day convincing any one of them to make the first move.

Richard66 wrote:
If the child is born stateless, he/she can acquire BC from the parent but pray that the UK doesn't tell you it was by your design by giving up your Brazilian citizenship.
Do you mean they might say I renounced my citizenship in order to force things and that, therefore, they will not grant citizenship? I thought that one too.

The funny thing is that to register the child as a Brazilian we need a document from the Russian authorities and, as my wife wants to naturalise the child Russian and in so doing it will lose Brazilian citizenship.

It's a mad world.

See above.

Richard66 · Post by **Richard66** » Wed Dec 24, 2008 6:44 am

If you do give up your Brazilian Citizenship: as with Russia and Italy who will want proof that the baby is stateless before giving citizenship to your baby, the UK will also be in the same camp. You'll probably have a field day convincing any one of them to make the first move.

This is one of the points I raised a long time ago.

Have you heard of effective nationality? It is a principle of private international Law.

I have taken this from application form S" for stateless persons:

1.25 Details of Applicantâ€™s Father

1.26 His full name: Richard66
1.27 Date of birth XX/XX/XX
1.28 Place and country of birth: XX, Brazil
1.29 Nationality when the applicant was born*: British citizen by descent
1.30 Present nationality: British citizen

*(If a British citizen, a British overseas territories citizen, a British Overseas citizen, or a British subject, state how this status was acquired e.g. by birth, adoption, descent, registration or naturalisation. If by naturalisation or registration please give the date and number of the certificate and place of issue.)

This is all that is asked of me, the father. I do not believe that, legally speaking, I am withholding information or that, indeed, I can give any more. Remember, if I had been born in Italy I would stiull be British by descent but I would not be Italian.

I think at this point I need to consult a specialised lawyer.

Post by **JAJ** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:57 am

Richard66 wrote: I think at this point I need to consult a specialised lawyer.

There may not be any such lawyer in existence. And if such lawyer exists, the cost is likely to be high with no guarantee of success.

If you choose not to have the baby born in Britain, then your options to get British citizenship for the child are:

1. PROVE - to the satisfaction of the Home Office (not your own opinion) - that the child was stateless at birth. This is a statutory requirement for registration as a British citizen under section 3(2) of the Act.

If the Home Office do not accept your argument, then you will need to fight it out in court.

2. Persuade the Home Office to register the child under section 3(1) of the Act. Discretionary, so won't be easy.

You need to sit down and work out the costs of
a. having baby born in the U.K. versus
b. dealing with a stateless child not being able to travel anywhere (unless you get a passport from another country); or
c. expensive lawyer and court battle to register child as British, which fail and leave you back at option b.

I really don't see any alternative options.

Richard66 · Post by **Richard66** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:24 pm

Thanks JAJ. It is a no-win situation, because a stateless child will always be eligiable for citizenship in another country. As Italy has precisely the same policy, it will be a very polite debate:

UK: Yes, stateless, I agree, but let me not rob you, Italy. Please, the child was born there! Do be nice and grant it citizenship!

Italy: Yes, stateless, no doubt about it. Please, UK, don't stand on cerimony! the child's father is your citizen, although a second class one! Do be nice and grant it citizenship!

Post by **JAJ** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 4:07 pm

Richard66 wrote:because a stateless child will always be eligiable for citizenship in another country.

Not necessarily.

And for section 3(2) registration whether the child is eligible for any other citizenship is irrelevant. Entitlement rests on a factual determination of whether or not the child is or is not a citizen of another country at birth.

But the issues are fully explained in a previous post. The Home Office won't accept your own word, so you will need to provide either some solid evidence of the child not holding another citizenship at birth, or go to court. And the court will want such evidence too!

You need to make up your mind what you intend to do in your own situation. There is at least one clear solution - have the child born in Britain - so it's up to you to decide whether or not to take the necessary steps.

Incidentally, birth in Gibraltar would also give British citizenship, as far as I know. Maybe look into that more closely?

The only problem would be that the child still wouldn't be Gibraltarian and medical care in case of problems might be more of a problem (availability/cost).

Richard66 · Post by **Richard66** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:05 pm

But how does the Home office know about other citizenships if these are not declared?

Post by **JAJ** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:54 pm

Richard66 wrote:But how does the Home office know about other citizenships if these are not declared?

By looking at your passport which shows place of birth, for example?

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Can a British citizen in the UK claim to be, say, Turkish?

Can a British citizen in the UK claim to be, say, Turkish?

Re: Can a British citizen in the UK claim to be, say, Turkis