Can my mother-in-law look after baby on visitors?

kaykaykay · Post by **kaykaykay** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:29 pm

Hi, I hope you can help...

I have just had a baby and have to return to work in February for financial reasons. I would like my mother in law to look after my son (he will be 9 months old in Feb) because i don't want to (and even if I did couldnt afford to) put him into nursery.

She is Lebanese and has been granted a visitor's visa in the past. She is only 48 so not old enough to qualify for vulnerable/elderly status yet, which I think is the only way a parent can be brought permanently to the UK! I don't want to jeopardise future visits by her staying for too long on an ordinary visitor's visa and wonder if there is a special visa she could take instead. We would obviously accommodate her and cover all of her living expenses.

Any ideas would be most appreciated.

kkk

kaykaykay · Post by **kaykaykay** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:35 pm

ANY advice would be appreciated - even if it is just where I can get some advice on this topic.

djb123 · Post by **djb123** » Fri Oct 24, 2008 6:23 am

I don't believe there is a way because what you are trying to do is bring her here to work - she looks after your son, you pay her in the form of accomodation and other living expenses.

UKBAbble · Post by **UKBAbble** » Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:57 am

djb123 wrote:I don't believe there is a way because what you are trying to do is bring her here to work - she looks after your son, you pay her in the form of accomodation and other living expenses.

Immigration officers regard childcare, even amongst family members, as employment.

tasha75 · Post by **tasha75** » Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:09 pm

UKBAbble wrote: Immigration officers regard childcare, even amongst family members, as employment.

Agree. And don't you (or your mother) even mention to the ECO that she's coming to help you to look after a child. She's coming to meet her new grandchild, that's all. Otherwise, there is a strong chance that the visa will be refused.
A friends parents have been here about 20 or 30 times to visit her. When they applied for a new visa when she had a new baby, they were refused for this reason - ECO suspected that they were coming to look after a baby. Even tough my friend had an arranged childcare in place (the same childminder where the eldest child goes). They appealed and won, but it had cost them over a thousand pounds in solicitor's fees, wasted time and nerves.

Post by **Frontier Mole** » Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:50 am

Agree every much with tasha75.
Dealt with two such appeals recently, both were dismissed as it was clear from the examination of the sponsors that although there would only be minor reliance on the Grandparents the IJ's took this to be "employment" in lieu of using another (paid or unpaid) means. A visitors visa is what it states, the conditions are very clear, even voluntary charitable work is considered as employment.

Post by **vinny** » Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:43 am

Eligible as a overseas domestic worker (18.10 - Overseas Domestic Workers in private (not diplomatic) households)?

Post by **Frontier Mole** » Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:57 am

Vinny please tell me you are trying to be funny?

There is not a hope in hell of getting a domestic worker visa for Grandparents under these rules. The rules are for the transfer of existing domestic workers to the UK on the back of their employersâ€™ visa entry. Even then they struggle to succeed due to the lack of proper documentation in regards employment contracts and pay slips / bank statements etc.

Post by **vinny** » Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:44 am

I agree that it is a very long shot, hence my "?" at the end. But it was loosely based on

Frontier Mole wrote:it was clear from the examination of the sponsors that although there would only be minor reliance on the Grandparents the IJ's took this to be "employment" in lieu of using another (paid or unpaid) means.

and DD (paragraph 159A: connection/employment) Sri Lanka [2008] UKAIT 00060 and if the sponsors has maintained and is regularly using an overseas home that is being looked after by the grandmother, etc.

Post by **Frontier Mole** » Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:32 am

Vinny - nice call. Never playing you at poker!

This is a fairly unique case as he had a property in his own name and paid all the bills etc. He "resided" in both countries as he had a presence in both countries and regularly visited Lanka. Most importantly the amount of evidence to hand was extensive.

Thanks for the immigration lesson

INSIDER · Post by **INSIDER** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:35 am

I don't think it is as clear cut as UKBabble, Tasha and Frontier presume.
It is very much dependent on individual circumstances and certainly a grandparent should not be denied the pleasure of looking after a grandchild on the semantics of the word "work".

Personally, having workd as both an ECO and an IO I like to take a pragmatic and liberal view. So long as the grandparent is not flagrantly abusing the immigration rules, for example, by remaining in the UK long term on the basis of visit visas I have no problem with elderly grannies coming over to do what grandparents do and help with the grandchild even if it is for the maximum period allowed.

The link below should shed more light on the matter. Read section 7 in particular.
http://ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/siteconte ... iew=Binary

Special classes of visitors - Annex B wrote:7. CHILDMINDERS FOR RELATIVES

It is acceptable for visitors to act as temporary child minders for relatives where: the visitor is a close relative of the parent (e.g. parent, sibling, in-law). More distant relatives are only acceptable if they have formed part of the family unit or are the closest surviving relatives of the parents; neither parent is able to supervise the daytime care of the child; it is not simply an arrangement to enable both parents to take gainful employment or to study; neither parent is in a category leading to settlement; the visitor will not receive a salary (disregarding provision of board, accommodation and pocket money); the visitor intends to remain in the UK for not more than 6 months. If it is suspected that the arrangement amounts to employment (paid or unpaid) the application should be refused on those grounds.

UKBAbble · Post by **UKBAbble** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:06 am

INSIDER wrote:I don't think it is as clear cut as UKBabble, Tasha and Frontier presume.
It is very much dependent on individual circumstances and certainly a grandparent should not be denied the pleasure of looking after a grandchild on the semantics of the word "work".

Personally, having workd as both an ECO and an IO I like to take a pragmatic and liberal view. So long as the grandparent is not flagrantly abusing the immigration rules, for example, by remaining in the UK long term on the basis of visit visas I have no problem with elderly grannies coming over to do what grandparents do and help with the grandchild even if it is for the maximum period allowed.

The link below should shed more light on the matter. Read section 7 in particular.
http://ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/siteconte ... iew=Binary

That link to manual makes it clear that if the purpose of the childcare is to let the parent return to work the application should be refused so I believe I was right. And I know plenty of IOs who would seek to refuse.

Post by **Frontier Mole** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:28 am

Having killed a few of these types of claim in court I can point to the fact that they do not readily succeed. The IJ's are happy with the temp provision for the parents to go on holiday without the child(ren) or even during school holidays but not as a substitute for "normal" childcare provisions.

sakura · Post by **sakura** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:59 am

Insider, whilst I do agree that a grandmother should be allowed to see her grandchild(ren), and even 'look after him/her' for the parents, looking at what the OP wrote, I believe that she has demonstrated that the grandmother's presence would allow her to return to work and/or save on childcare which is an option they do not want (or cannot) consider. In which case, the grandmother would be employed without being (legally) 'employed'. Plus, if the grandmother comes very often (e.g. more than 6 months of the year), then that must raise suspicions about her true intentions of simply visiting her family?

kaykaykay wrote:Hi, I hope you can help...

I have just had a baby and have to return to work in February for financial reasons. I would like my mother in law to look after my son (he will be 9 months old in Feb) because i don't want to (and even if I did couldnt afford to) put him into nursery.

She is Lebanese and has been granted a visitor's visa in the past. She is only 48 so not old enough to qualify for vulnerable/elderly status yet, which I think is the only way a parent can be brought permanently to the UK! I don't want to jeopardise future visits by her staying for too long on an ordinary visitor's visa and wonder if there is a special visa she could take instead. We would obviously accommodate her and cover all of her living expenses.

Any ideas would be most appreciated.

kkk

tasha75 · Post by **tasha75** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:54 am

Frontier Mole wrote:Having killed a few of these types of claim in court

So, you are HOPO then? Shame on you.

Now I understand where does "mole" in your nickname come from.

INSIDER · Post by **INSIDER** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:22 pm

Sakura/UKbabble,

From experience at the coal face and on the front line [port] I can tell you that very few CIOs would sanction a refusal of such a case. They would tend to only refuse a granny who is in flagrant abuse of the rules . e.g spends the maximum time allowable, goes home for a couple of weeks and then returns for a further period of six months. A granny who comes temporarily even if it is to allow mum to go to work is unlikely to raise the interest of an IO.

Post by **Frontier Mole** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:28 pm

tasha75 wrote:
Frontier Mole wrote:Having killed a few of these types of claim in court
So, you are HOPO then? Shame on you.
Now I understand where does "mole" in your nickname come from.

Post by **Frontier Mole** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:37 pm

The question is very narrow; does the Grandparent state the truth of the matter or just say it is a visit to see her family?

The answer is a no brainer. The issue is one of common sense versus principle.

The OP has the information, the opposing views and differing approaches. I suggest we wish them luck and let them decide, it is after all their decision. Whatever way it proceeds the Grandparent is the individual who is exposed to any risk and she must be prepared to answer any points put to her or not as the case maybe.

UKBAbble · Post by **UKBAbble** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:22 pm

INSIDER wrote:Sakura/UKbabble,

From experience at the coal face and on the front line [port] I can tell you that very few CIOs would sanction a refusal of such a case. They would tend to only refuse a granny who is in flagrant abuse of the rules . e.g spends the maximum time allowable, goes home for a couple of weeks and then returns for a further period of six months. A granny who comes temporarily even if it is to allow mum to go to work is unlikely to raise the interest of an IO.

Really? My port experience is somewhat different.

INSIDER · Post by **INSIDER** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:51 pm

Really? My port experience is somewhat different

Ah well, that's Heathrow for you.

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Can my mother-in-law look after baby on visitors?

Can my mother-in-law look after baby on visitors?

please give me some advice!!!

Re: Can my mother-in-law look after baby on visitors?