Dermot Ahern to step down at upcoming general election

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/bre ... ing12.html


Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern said this morning he will not contest his Dáil seat in Co Louth at the next general election for health reasons.

In a statement released this morning, the Fianna Fáil Minister said in the last 18 months he has been "diagnosed with a painful medical condition necessitating heavy medicationâ€

Good Riddance.

9jeirean wrote:Good Riddance.

Lets hope his successor isn't even worse than him!

[quote="myimmigrationboards"]http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/bre ... ing12.html


Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern said this morning he will not contest his Dáil seat in Co Louth at the next general election for health reasons.

In a statement released this morning, the Fianna Fáil Minister said in the last 18 months he has been "diagnosed with a painful medical condition necessitating heavy medicationâ€

Hope either Varadkar or Shatter becomes the Justice minister since its going to be Fine Gael more likely the government party after next election.

fatty patty wrote:Hope either Varadkar or Shatter becomes the Justice minister since its going to be Fine Gael more likely the government party after next election.

Why Leo Varadkar? Just because of his immigrant name? The further he is kept away from any ministerial position the better. He can not be trusted, far too dangerous. By the way, you seem to forget that it was him who made the suggestion , two-three years ago of paying off immigrants in return for leaving the country

As for Shatter, no, he is one tracked minded, ie his preference to only one group / country and refuses debate to be aired for the other side. He won't be impartial and he will show his prejudice

It does not really matter who gets in, the immigrant will have it tough, though, FG will likely be more compliant with EU law

It is indeed ironic that was Varadkar the politician to suggest the policy of paying unemployed immigrant workers to leave the country. I believe he got the idea for this from his EU colleagues in the Czech Gov't, where they paid unemployed immigrant workers to return home.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124087660297361511.html

When he retires as minister and TD for Louth early in the new year, the 55-year-old will be paid an initial tax-free golden parachute of €177,636 as well as a pension of €140,861 in the first year. This will be followed by an annual pension worth €128,291 for the rest of his life.

Mr Ahern’s pension will be worth significantly more than what he would potentially earn as an opposition TD in the next Dáil — something that could encourage a number of other long-standing FF ministers to make similar decisions.

http://www.examiner.ie/home/318k-windfa ... 38144.html

walrusgumble wrote:

fatty patty wrote:Hope either Varadkar or Shatter becomes the Justice minister since its going to be Fine Gael more likely the government party after next election.

Why Leo Varadkar? Just because of his immigrant name? The further he is kept away from any ministerial position the better. He can not be trusted, far too dangerous. By the way, you seem to forget that it was him who made the suggestion , two-three years ago of paying off immigrants in return for leaving the country

As for Shatter, no, he is one tracked minded, ie his preference to only one group / country and refuses debate to be aired for the other side. He won't be impartial and he will show his prejudice

It does not really matter who gets in, the immigrant will have it tough, though, FG will likely be more compliant with EU law

Becase they represent the constituency where most migrants live....Shatter (Lucan) Varadkar (Blanch/Castlenock)...but anyway besides that...Varadkar is a bright politician who rightly suggested for the unemployed/willing migrants to be paid off in a quick fix to be sent home then become a long term burden on the state...what is wrong with that? And he picked that point up from other EU countries who have decided doing this during recession years. There should be a post for junior justice minister in Ireland who should deal with mostly if not exclusively with the Immigration/Asylum issues (immigration minister maybe), rather than system just being reliant on the overly worked justice minister with too much on his table, whose first and last priority is organized crime and nowadays white collar crimes, and rightly so...this is why this needs to be offloaded from minister's table.

fatty patty wrote:

walrusgumble wrote:

fatty patty wrote:Hope either Varadkar or Shatter becomes the Justice minister since its going to be Fine Gael more likely the government party after next election.

Why Leo Varadkar? Just because of his immigrant name? The further he is kept away from any ministerial position the better. He can not be trusted, far too dangerous. By the way, you seem to forget that it was him who made the suggestion , two-three years ago of paying off immigrants in return for leaving the country

As for Shatter, no, he is one tracked minded, ie his preference to only one group / country and refuses debate to be aired for the other side. He won't be impartial and he will show his prejudice

It does not really matter who gets in, the immigrant will have it tough, though, FG will likely be more compliant with EU law

Becase they represent the constituency where most migrants live....Shatter (Lucan) Varadkar (Blanch/Castlenock)...but anyway besides that...Varadkar is a bright politician who rightly suggested for the unemployed/willing migrants to be paid off in a quick fix to be sent home then become a long term burden on the state...what is wrong with that? And he picked that point up from other EU countries who have decided doing this during recession years. There should be a post for junior justice minister in Ireland who should deal with mostly if not exclusively with the Immigration/Asylum issues (immigration minister maybe), rather than system just being reliant on the overly worked justice minister with too much on his table, whose first and last priority is organized crime and nowadays white collar crimes, and rightly so...this is why this needs to be offloaded from minister's table.

I understand that, but does Shatter's constituency actually cover Lucan? I thought Lucan was West Dublin where as , I thought Shatter is in South. Can't see how the politicans will really give a damn as many / some of the immigrants don't have rights to vote in the Dáil elections. You really think that they will be more concerned for them as oppose to those who have the power to elect them or get rid of them. Why should a country pay someone who no longer complies with law to leave, pay for their flights maybe but no way pay for any other expenses. You realise the hassle people are getting in fighting for their rights to redunancy money?

Haughey was clever, so was McDowell, does not make them good selfless politicans. I don't trust Leo, far too right wing

Wither way, this current group have cut off any new governments chances to do well

I find it rather ironic you agree with Leo's stance, considering it involved EU citizens and potential infringement of same. Moreover, the fact that it would have cost the state in getting rid of them.(though , in fairness in teh short term)

I would agree that there should be a proper immgiration minister, free from regins of justice, but, with the current situation, there won't really be a need for one now, but junior, would might be a good idea

walrusgumble wrote:

fatty patty wrote:

walrusgumble wrote:

fatty patty wrote:Hope either Varadkar or Shatter becomes the Justice minister since its going to be Fine Gael more likely the government party after next election.

Why Leo Varadkar? Just because of his immigrant name? The further he is kept away from any ministerial position the better. He can not be trusted, far too dangerous. By the way, you seem to forget that it was him who made the suggestion , two-three years ago of paying off immigrants in return for leaving the country

As for Shatter, no, he is one tracked minded, ie his preference to only one group / country and refuses debate to be aired for the other side. He won't be impartial and he will show his prejudice

It does not really matter who gets in, the immigrant will have it tough, though, FG will likely be more compliant with EU law

Becase they represent the constituency where most migrants live....Shatter (Lucan) Varadkar (Blanch/Castlenock)...but anyway besides that...Varadkar is a bright politician who rightly suggested for the unemployed/willing migrants to be paid off in a quick fix to be sent home then become a long term burden on the state...what is wrong with that? And he picked that point up from other EU countries who have decided doing this during recession years. There should be a post for junior justice minister in Ireland who should deal with mostly if not exclusively with the Immigration/Asylum issues (immigration minister maybe), rather than system just being reliant on the overly worked justice minister with too much on his table, whose first and last priority is organized crime and nowadays white collar crimes, and rightly so...this is why this needs to be offloaded from minister's table.

I understand that, but does Shatter's constituency actually cover Lucan? I thought Lucan was West Dublin where as , I thought Shatter is in South. Can't see how the politicans will really give a damn as many / some of the immigrants don't have rights to vote in the Dáil elections. You really think that they will be more concerned for them as oppose to those who have the power to elect them or get rid of them. Why should a country pay someone who no longer complies with law to leave, pay for their flights maybe but no way pay for any other expenses. You realise the hassle people are getting in fighting for their rights to redunancy money?

Haughey was clever, so was McDowell, does not make them good selfless politicans. I don't trust Leo, far too right wing

Wither way, this current group have cut off any new governments chances to do well

I find it rather ironic you agree with Leo's stance, considering it involved EU citizens and potential infringement of same. Moreover, the fact that it would have cost the state in getting rid of them.(though , in fairness in teh short term)

I would agree that there should be a proper immgiration minister, free from regins of justice, but, with the current situation, there won't really be a need for one now, but junior, would might be a good idea

True that immigrants can only vote in local council elections whilst only Irish can vote in Dail elections but in 4-5 years time (or say next election time) these immigrants (non eu mostly) will be citizens....this is why they can be seen as a cash cow (or should i say vote cow) by the politicians. To be honest what is wrong with this notion of paying someone off to go home if they cant make ends meet? I will strongly believe there would've been many takers if it would have been started only as a tester. (It is not applicable on the EU citizens due to directive of free movement, and it will become a merry go around if it involved EU citizens...it involves non-EU). I dont think this makes Leo a far right politician by merely suggesting it btw fine gael is a centre right party isnt it? But extreme left has very good suggestions regarding the economy and are very helpful towards migrants (socialist joe higgins crowd). But anyway....anyone but FF please!

Leo Varadkar is a nice man, and i find it very worrying and disturbing that Wal was inferring that he is a dearly beloved. He doesn't just have a foreign name, he has a foreign linkage. I would not mind having a coffee with him, which is more than i can say for Mr Ahern, whom i will not spare my sweat if he was in fire.

Mr Varadkar's father is an Indian, i fail to see how he can be xenophobic or dearly beloved. He was simply suggesting what any logical minded person will
suggest. He was giving people who want to take up his offer a choice. His reference was to people on live register. Similar provision operates in Spain, and saves taxpayers a lot of money, and helps this people to, should they wish, establish a life in their home country.

He cannot be compared to the BNP who are proposing forced emigration on the grounds of skin colour.

I hope FG comes to power soon, and FF kicked out in disgrace.

I also pray that Mr Varadkar be the next Justice minister, and probably the Taoiseach one day.

Obie wrote:Leo Varadkar is a nice man, and i find it very worrying and disturbing that Wal was inferring that he is a dearly beloved. He doesn't just have a foreign name, he has a foreign linkage. I would not mind having a coffee with him, which is more than i can say for Mr Ahern, whom i will not spare my sweat if he was in fire.

Mr Varadkar's father is an Indian, i fail to see how he can be xenophobic or dearly beloved. He was simply suggesting what any logical minded person will
suggest. He was giving people who want to take up his offer a choice. His reference was to people on live register. Similar provision operates in Spain, and saves taxpayers a lot of money, and helps this people to, should they wish, establish a life in their home country.

He cannot be compared to the BNP who are proposing forced emigration on the grounds of skin colour.

I hope FG comes to power soon, and FF kicked out in disgrace.

I also pray that Mr Varadkar be the next Justice minister, and probably the Taoiseach one day.

Leo nice man? Do you know him? Ever seen the Harry Enfield character Tim nice but Dim? We don't need a nice guy in government, not when there are problems in government. Do you actually know Dermot?. What makes you think they would want to go for a coffee with you?

I would have to say , you are naive. Opposition politicans will say anything that you will like to hear. What until they are in Power.

I never suggested he was dearly beloved. FInd out where I suggest that and then actually find out what the term actually means. His surname is foreign, read what I said "immigrant name", I never suggested that he was not born in Ireland (that would not matter anyway). Oh well the day of branding every one and anyone a dearly beloved for going against Official Ireland is long over and will no longer be tolerated. I simply was referring to Patty's suggestion that Leo would be a good justice minister. I had asked the question of why he would think it, I had suggested was it simply because of his surname ie he would be more sympathethic to the immigrants. That is all, but as per usual someone has an agenda. Maybe read what is being said before looking stupid. I raised his one of very few pronouncements on immigration, which clearly shows that as far as he is concerned, its State first, immigrant second. I made no comment or opinion on this, only to say it is ironic that patty supported it as it may have been an infringement on EU law, something most of ye hold dear.

What I will say is there should be no financial assistance to encourage these people to move home, it is the Irish people that need to be priortise along with Long term established non Irish citizens. Ryanair are cheap, and Air Lingus are not bad. These people, if they had any honesty and dignity would leave anyway, moreover, they may no longer be considered "workers" after a period of time

No one was comparing Leo to BNP

Leo V has as much chance of becoming Taoiseach as Ireland hosting the Soccer World Cup. He is not even liked in FG, and he proved what a sly, limp wristed, little self serving clown that he is during the pathetic Bruton-Kenny heave/publicity stunt. When all does not go his way, he will leave politics and go back to his promising career as a Doctor.

fatty patty wrote:

walrusgumble wrote:

fatty patty wrote:

walrusgumble wrote:
Why Leo Varadkar? Just because of his immigrant name? The further he is kept away from any ministerial position the better. He can not be trusted, far too dangerous. By the way, you seem to forget that it was him who made the suggestion , two-three years ago of paying off immigrants in return for leaving the country

As for Shatter, no, he is one tracked minded, ie his preference to only one group / country and refuses debate to be aired for the other side. He won't be impartial and he will show his prejudice

It does not really matter who gets in, the immigrant will have it tough, though, FG will likely be more compliant with EU law

Becase they represent the constituency where most migrants live....Shatter (Lucan) Varadkar (Blanch/Castlenock)...but anyway besides that...Varadkar is a bright politician who rightly suggested for the unemployed/willing migrants to be paid off in a quick fix to be sent home then become a long term burden on the state...what is wrong with that? And he picked that point up from other EU countries who have decided doing this during recession years. There should be a post for junior justice minister in Ireland who should deal with mostly if not exclusively with the Immigration/Asylum issues (immigration minister maybe), rather than system just being reliant on the overly worked justice minister with too much on his table, whose first and last priority is organized crime and nowadays white collar crimes, and rightly so...this is why this needs to be offloaded from minister's table.

I understand that, but does Shatter's constituency actually cover Lucan? I thought Lucan was West Dublin where as , I thought Shatter is in South. Can't see how the politicans will really give a damn as many / some of the immigrants don't have rights to vote in the Dáil elections. You really think that they will be more concerned for them as oppose to those who have the power to elect them or get rid of them. Why should a country pay someone who no longer complies with law to leave, pay for their flights maybe but no way pay for any other expenses. You realise the hassle people are getting in fighting for their rights to redunancy money?

Haughey was clever, so was McDowell, does not make them good selfless politicans. I don't trust Leo, far too right wing

Wither way, this current group have cut off any new governments chances to do well

I find it rather ironic you agree with Leo's stance, considering it involved EU citizens and potential infringement of same. Moreover, the fact that it would have cost the state in getting rid of them.(though , in fairness in teh short term)

I would agree that there should be a proper immgiration minister, free from regins of justice, but, with the current situation, there won't really be a need for one now, but junior, would might be a good idea

True that immigrants can only vote in local council elections whilst only Irish can vote in Dail elections but in 4-5 years time (or say next election time) these immigrants (non eu mostly) will be citizens....this is why they can be seen as a cash cow (or should i say vote cow) by the politicians. To be honest what is wrong with this notion of paying someone off to go home if they cant make ends meet? I will strongly believe there would've been many takers if it would have been started only as a tester. (It is not applicable on the EU citizens due to directive of free movement, and it will become a merry go around if it involved EU citizens...it involves non-EU). I dont think this makes Leo a far right politician by merely suggesting it btw fine gael is a centre right party isnt it? But extreme left has very good suggestions regarding the economy and are very helpful towards migrants (socialist joe higgins crowd). But anyway....anyone but FF please!

You are assuming that they will still be living in Ireland along with the other citizens. I won't be surprised that if there will no, due to economic reasons, be a halt in the amount of citizenship granted.

Cash cow? Eh, you do realise that will be a minority, a reasonable one. Attitudes towards immigrants will likely change in the next 10 years, and politicans will be concerned about what the majority think, there is no guarantee that there will be any Ted Kennedys etc. How many people from "minority" backgrounds (and Non Irish backgrounds) have passed through Westminister in the past 20 years? Look, you quite possible are right there, time will tell

Far right, Leo is at complete opposite to Garreth Fitzgerald and his social democrat programme. I never said he was "far right" I said he was right. Right wing politics does not neccessatiate being dearly beloved as you know. Leo has hardly been considered Left now has he?


List out what Joe Higgins has suggested

Seeing that they have already started taxing the lowest incomes and reduced the minimum wage, increased student fees by 500euro etc.., its a (pleasant) surprise that they haven't thought of doubling or tripling the the fee for successful citizenship applicants

With 65,000 people emigrating from Ireland so far this year, much of them young Irish, perhaps in the not too distant future resident non-EU and EU immigrants may become the majority of the total urban population in each Irish city What a demographic shift that will be!

Southern_Sky wrote:Seeing that they have already started taxing the lowest incomes and reduced the minimum wage, increased student fees by 500euro etc.., its a (pleasant) surprise that they haven't thought of doubling or tripling the the fee for successful citizenship applicants

With 65,000 people emigrating from Ireland so far this year, much of them young Irish, perhaps in the not too distant future resident non-EU and EU immigrants may become the majority of the total urban population in each Irish city What a demographic shift that will be!

They did already, about 1 year ago. The original fee was around €650. It is now over €900, all thats to Ahern.

The former DCU President made similar references 4 years ago ie the irish will be a minority. Shhhh, you will only rise up the ugly head of an Irish version of the BNP.

As for complete demographic shift, I must say that is wishfull thinking, hence part reason for the inis acting the way it is, learn from Britian's mistakes, some might say. regardless of being minority or not, it won't be much good to them if they are not citizens (though the way the EU is going maybe Germany will finally get their Reich)

Leo V has as much chance of becoming Taoiseach as Ireland hosting the Soccer World Cup. He is not even liked in FG, and he proved what a sly, limp wristed, little self serving clown that he is during the pathetic Bruton-Kenny heave/publicity stunt. When all does not go his way, he will leave politics and go back to his promising career as a Doctor.

Very strong words there, same can be said about any FF politician nowadays, lot of them are like you said sly, limp wristed and self serving. Don't even have the boll*x to put the IMF/EU terms infront of the Dail. When they see they cannot be elected to the Dail as they gonna get swept aside they are one by one deciding quitting on "HEALTH" reasons. Probably afraid on door to door canvassing that they gonna get doors after doors shut on their faces or lynched in some cases. Bruton is alot better then kenny in my opinion, you look at Gilmore his approval ratings going up and up while FG rating steady/going up...kenny's coming down thick and fast. Atleast FG inner circles have decided to do something about it, while FF when Bertie prancing around did nothing. Although FG timing was not the best but it will happen in my opinion very soon, as Kenny is fading away and there are alot of bright youngsters coming up in FG, Lucinda/Leo are the prime examples, another FG youngster got a ticket to run up in Kildare south. Who FF is going to appoint Dermot successor? Your man property developer Gallagher! Enough said (he only looks good on dragon's den and thats about it). Don't know what exactly socialist are saying specifically about immigrants issues just the bullet points but SF or extreme left are usually very much sympathetic to immigrant issues in which reforming the citizenship system was the main one. By the way 23-24k waiting on citizenship decisions + so many others maturing (ready for citizenship) year after year...thats nearly a dail seat there quite a significant number for any politician to think about.

fatty patty wrote:

Leo V has as much chance of becoming Taoiseach as Ireland hosting the Soccer World Cup. He is not even liked in FG, and he proved what a sly, limp wristed, little self serving clown that he is during the pathetic Bruton-Kenny heave/publicity stunt. When all does not go his way, he will leave politics and go back to his promising career as a Doctor.

Very strong words there, same can be said about any FF politician nowadays, lot of them are like you said sly, limp wristed and self serving. Don't even have the boll*x to put the IMF/EU terms infront of the Dail. When they see they cannot be elected to the Dail as they gonna get swept aside they are one by one deciding quitting on "HEALTH" reasons. Probably afraid on door to door canvassing that they gonna get doors after doors shut on their faces or lynched in some cases. Bruton is alot better then kenny in my opinion, you look at Gilmore his approval ratings going up and up while FG rating steady/going up...kenny's coming down thick and fast. Atleast FG inner circles have decided to do something about it, while FF when Bertie prancing around did nothing. Although FG timing was not the best but it will happen in my opinion very soon, as Kenny is fading away and there are alot of bright youngsters coming up in FG, Lucinda/Leo are the prime examples, another FG youngster got a ticket to run up in Kildare south. Who FF is going to appoint Dermot successor? Your man property developer Gallagher! Enough said (he only looks good on dragon's den and thats about it). Don't know what exactly socialist are saying specifically about immigrants issues just the bullet points but SF or extreme left are usually very much sympathetic to immigrant issues in which reforming the citizenship system was the main one. By the way 23-24k waiting on citizenship decisions + so many others maturing (ready for citizenship) year after year...thats nearly a dail seat there quite a significant number for any politician to think about.

FF? Fair enough that is true, the back benchers only get exercised when policy threatens their interests/voters ie pensioners & farmers. Or Jackie Healy Rae (former FF) But that does not take away from the fact on how Leo has built himself up and/or allowed the media to build him, as some white shinny light. What I say about him, I stand by that.

Bruton, he is not the answer either. He is just as bad as Enda, he has no charisma, nor is he capable of communication. If we believe what the whole George Lee story, it does not leave him in good light. There are some similarities with his brother (former Taoiseach, though at least that short term government did very well) One person I have time for in FG is Michael Noonan. Unlike most of the current FGers he has experience in government.

FG inner cirlces obviously did nothing about it or allowed Enda and Big Phil to side track them (experience of politics wins) To be honest, I would entertain the idea that the whole heave was a publicity stunt (it wasn't) to make Enda all authoritian. Enda performed a blinder that week when his political existance was on the line, (self interest) pitty he did not carry that forward "going forward"

Eamonn, well, I hope he is not another Tony Blair, for Labours sake.

Dermott's successor?, yes that is poor alright. Yes I get your point about the young blood in FG, but who would you trust with government? Leo/Loose Lips C or Baldy Noonan & the older lot? You not think Gallagher comes across as a bit of a tool on DD? Bit sexist? SF should clean up

I hear what you say about future voters, but really, since when do politicans look to the long term future? Unless these new irish have money, the politicans won't heed them too much. Also, if they are Irish, then immigration issues don't come up anyway, they will be treated the same as other Irish and the citizen would be expected likewise to act in the country's interest

So you do agree the FF are also a limp wristed bunch. Dermot's would be successor proves that FF is just a party built up mostly by property developers and in today's cases bankers/bond holders as they are fervently proecting their interests before people's.

Well politicians do have to start thinking about the future for sure, and they are slowly and gradually are that is why alot of sympathy coming from left towards us, right is still slow but catching up...money/donations is not the issue, it is mostly votes that is their concern. Atleast this crisis/recession in Ireland has given rise to a new political front, that is there is no 2 big parties anymore, new comers are mushrooming everywhere, welcome change for sure. Let's see how many Fianna Failers/others defect. Who knows maybe McDowell on a ticket from People Before Profit party. Dermot seat is defo gone even if he had stood in elections due to the arrival of Gerry Adams in Louth.

fatty patty wrote:So you do agree the FF are also a limp wristed bunch. Dermot's would be successor proves that FF is just a party built up mostly by property developers and in today's cases bankers/bond holders as they are fervently proecting their interests before people's.

Well politicians do have to start thinking about the future for sure, and they are slowly and gradually are that is why alot of sympathy coming from left towards us, right is still slow but catching up...money/donations is not the issue, it is mostly votes that is their concern. Atleast this crisis/recession in Ireland has given rise to a new political front, that is there is no 2 big parties anymore, new comers are mushrooming everywhere, welcome change for sure. Let's see how many Fianna Failers/others defect. Who knows maybe McDowell on a ticket from People Before Profit party. Dermot seat is defo gone even if he had stood in elections due to the arrival of Gerry Adams in Louth.

I have been agreeing that FF are limp wristed etc since the say i was first legally allowed to vote, over, nearly 15-20 years ago. What is your point? We were talking about the delusion that FG or more to the point Alan Shatter and Leo V will not be the white shining light. There is no revelation that FF are built up on property developers etc. That marriage blossomed as early as the 1970's whilst people like C J Haughey & Brian Lenihan Snr were cutting their cloth in Leinster House.

But don't think for one minute that FG are all angels on that front, they too have their money spinners in property etc. There is an old saying that if FG were in power in the last number of years as long as the would liked, there would be no independent Ireland, and that we would still be back in Britian or some supranational EU state. They could not have been trusted during the Good Friday Agreement period

I must say it is specatularly hilarious for many immigrants/new irish to come now and slate the party 1997-2007 as it was there policies that attracted / and welcomed them to Ireland. Now all of a sudden when the party is over hindsight is king. Of course they will protect same, they are the groups that are propping them up to that we can "enjoy the benefit of their greatness". Not everything FF did between 1997-2002 was bad by the way. More people were attending college, the grip between Church & State loosened, and genuine economic growth was rising. Although it is not fair or completely accurate to say this, but getting into bed with the Progressive Democrats (misfits from FF and FG) was a bad choice.

As for the crustys in PBP, I can't see how they have the competence or qualifications to stimulate the economy. THey are far too self interested and indisciplined to allow a large party to be united. The evil "split" would be guaranteed and inevitable. You realise how many forms/fronts we now have had with this same old message?

Somehow the idea of McDowell, in his new shinny 2010 merc (his own expenses and funds mind) would prefer the Four Goldmines than PBP. Somehow I can't see how PBP would let McDowell anywhere near a soap box. Funny, alot of people have suggested that Dermo would be a causality in the General Elections anyway.