EEA Family Permit can child over 18 but under 21 be included

I am an EU citizen (British), living in Qatar. My wife and our son of 19 years are both New Zealand passport holders.

We plan to move to the Netherlands to work on a fixed term contract. I understand that my wife and son can join me. I then wish to move back to the UK via the EEA Family Permit. The big question is does my son qualify to move with us as a family member even though he is 19 (over 18 ) BUT under 21 (which seems to be acceptable to euro countries). He lives with us and is entirely dependent on us. Will my wife and son after landing in the uk under a family Permit from an eu country, then have the right to ILR and citizenship in the UK?

This route seems better to get my whole family in to the Uk than a marriage visa and ILR for my wife BUT no options for my son (as he is over 18 ).

Thx.

the answer is very simple. From directive 2004/38

2) "Family member" means:
(a) the spouse;
(c) the direct descendants who are under the age of 21 or are dependants and those of the spouse

So no problem as long as your son is under 21. When he reaches that age he will still qualify as a family member as long as he is dependent on you (financially). The same rules apply both for your initial move to the Netherlands and your subsequent move to the UK (after whatever the term of your contract is).
After five years in UK under the EEA regulations your wife and son will acquire Permanent Residency (which is similar to ILR but legally a different concept). By then you can have a look into the rules for British Citizenship.

sweet tnx.
a couple more queries if you don't mind:
- when we land in the netherlands do we register with the local authority immediately?
- do I go to the brit embassy in Netherlands to apply for the FP when we get to the end of the contract ?
- any idea of cost of the FP ?

By comparison, if I went the uk route I have established that my wife can get ILR immediately after issue of marriage visa when landed and life in uk test is done, but still has to wait another 3 years fro citizenship. The major problem with this route is my son has no route in, unless he starts working straight away and assuming he even gets that visa on his own. Also a tad under 2,000 quid to get all the way plus consultant fees min 1,000 quid for the missus.

so via FP, only an extra 2 years to wait and both of them sorted is def. worth the extra 2-3 year wait.

fysicus wrote:the answer is very simple. From directive 2004/38

2) "Family member" means:
(a) the spouse;
(c) the direct descendants who are under the age of 21 or are dependants and those of the spouse

So no problem as long as your son is under 21. When he reaches that age he will still qualify as a family member as long as he is dependent on you (financially). The same rules apply both for your initial move to the Netherlands and your subsequent move to the UK (after whatever the term of your contract is).
After five years in UK under the EEA regulations your wife and son will acquire Permanent Residency (which is similar to ILR but legally a different concept). By then you can have a look into the rules for British Citizenship.

In the Netherlands, first thing to do is to get an address (i.e. accomodation), then go to the Gemeente (municipality), department Burgerzaken (Civil Affairs) and register yourselves there in the GBA (countrywide population register). Documents in English (like marriage and birth certificates) do not need to be translated into Dutch.
From the Gemeente you can request an extract of the details they have recorded about you in GBA; with this extract you have to register yourselves with IND (Immigration and Naturalisation Service) to get a bewijs van rechtmatig verblijf (proof of lawful residence), which is a sticker in your passport. You need to make an appointment first (via tel 0900 1234561) and it cost 43 euro (for non-EEA family members). Under EU regulations you have three months to sort out these administrative details, better of course to get it out of the way a.s.a.p.

You and your family will be exempt from civic integration requirements that foreigners in Holland are normally subject to. It is, however, still a good idea to learn Dutch to some extent.

You can apply for the EEA Family Permit earlier if you want: it is valid for six months and it is free of charge, like all other applications under EEA rules in the UK. Once you live in the UK, your wife and son apply for a Residence Card.

Everything is fairly straightforward, no need to hire expensive lawyers.

great- efficient and easy, - should the address be permanent? or can it be say a b&b or guesthouse? (until we have time to get our bearings and commit to a long term lease in the area).

fysicus wrote:In the Netherlands, first thing to do is to get an address (i.e. accomodation), then go to the Gemeente (municipality), department Burgerzaken (Civil Affairs) and register yourselves there in the GBA (countrywide population register). Documents in English (like marriage and birth certificates) do not need to be translated into Dutch.
From the Gemeente you can request an extract of the details they have recorded about you in GBA; with this extract you have to register yourselves with IND (Immigration and Naturalisation Service) to get a bewijs van rechtmatig verblijf (proof of lawful residence), which is a sticker in your passport. You need to make an appointment first (via tel 0900 1234561) and it cost 43 euro (for non-EEA family members). Under EU regulations you have three months to sort out these administrative details, better of course to get it out of the way a.s.a.p.

You and your family will be exempt from civic integration requirements that foreigners in Holland are normally subject to. It is, however, still a good idea to learn Dutch to some extent.

You can apply for the EEA Family Permit earlier if you want: it is valid for six months and it is free of charge, like all other applications under EEA rules in the UK. Once you live in the UK, your wife and son apply for a Residence Card.

Everything is fairly straightforward, no need to hire expensive lawyers.

Just out of curiosity- can a Family Permit for the UK only include my son ( and my wife follow the 'more expensive, but shorter' Marriage Visa-ILR route) or MUST all members be included?

gb wrote:great- efficient and easy, - should the address be permanent? or can it be say a b&b or guesthouse? (until we have time to get our bearings and commit to a long term lease in the area).

fysicus wrote:In the Netherlands, first thing to do is to get an address (i.e. accomodation), then go to the Gemeente (municipality), department Burgerzaken (Civil Affairs) and register yourselves there in the GBA (countrywide population register). Documents in English (like marriage and birth certificates) do not need to be translated into Dutch.
From the Gemeente you can request an extract of the details they have recorded about you in GBA; with this extract you have to register yourselves with IND (Immigration and Naturalisation Service) to get a bewijs van rechtmatig verblijf (proof of lawful residence), which is a sticker in your passport. You need to make an appointment first (via tel 0900 1234561) and it cost 43 euro (for non-EEA family members). Under EU regulations you have three months to sort out these administrative details, better of course to get it out of the way a.s.a.p.

You and your family will be exempt from civic integration requirements that foreigners in Holland are normally subject to. It is, however, still a good idea to learn Dutch to some extent.

You can apply for the EEA Family Permit earlier if you want: it is valid for six months and it is free of charge, like all other applications under EEA rules in the UK. Once you live in the UK, your wife and son apply for a Residence Card.

Everything is fairly straightforward, no need to hire expensive lawyers.

gb wrote:great- efficient and easy, - should the address be permanent? or can it be say a b&b or guesthouse? (until we have time to get our bearings and commit to a long term lease in the area).

I think a temporary address is acceptable; you are obliged by law to report any change of address anyway. But you can always ask first at the Civil Affairs department about such details.

gb wrote:Just out of curiosity- can a Family Permit for the UK only include my son ( and my wife follow the 'more expensive, but shorter' Marriage Visa-ILR route) or MUST all members be included?

Yes, that is perfectly possible, but I would never consider that in your case. Apart from the cost factor, the EEA route has an additional plus: the UK government cannot change the rules unilaterally!

Also, under EEA rules, your wife would retain the right of residence in the UK in unfortunate circumstances like divorce or your death (not the things you want to plan for now I assume).

Mate, thank you very, very much- these forums are an excellent source of information- to all you guys who respond- the best. Rgds.

fysicus wrote:

gb wrote:great- efficient and easy, - should the address be permanent? or can it be say a b&b or guesthouse? (until we have time to get our bearings and commit to a long term lease in the area).

I think a temporary address is acceptable; you are obliged by law to report any change of address anyway. But you can always ask first at the Civil Affairs department about such details.

gb wrote:Just out of curiosity- can a Family Permit for the UK only include my son ( and my wife follow the 'more expensive, but shorter' Marriage Visa-ILR route) or MUST all members be included?

Yes, that is perfectly possible, but I would never consider that in your case. Apart from the cost factor, the EEA route has an additional plus: the UK government cannot change the rules unilaterally!

Also, under EEA rules, your wife would retain the right of residence in the UK in unfortunate circumstances like divorce or your death (not the things you want to plan for now I assume).

gb wrote:Just out of curiosity- can a Family Permit for the UK only include my son ( and my wife follow the 'more expensive, but shorter' Marriage Visa-ILR route) or MUST all members be included?

fysicus wrote:Yes, that is perfectly possible, but I would never consider that in your case. Apart from the cost factor, the EEA route has an additional plus: the UK government cannot change the rules unilaterally!

Also, under EEA rules, your wife would retain the right of residence in the UK in unfortunate circumstances like divorce or your death (not the things you want to plan for now I assume).

last question related to my son: I assume this all works for the UK as long as he's under 21... so my questions are,
1. if I need him in the UK on a Family Permit so he can easily join us at any time in the future, then I must make sure to do this before he turns 21 ?

2. if he then needs to go back to Holland to study, can he still retain his uk residency ? I assume we can't have everything, so if he is able keep his uk residency, he then is no longer a resident of Holland for lower student fees?

To be honest, here I am not sure what would happen. When he turns 21, he must be dependent on you to benefit from directive 2004/38 but on the other hand you don't want your son to be dependent on you all his life, do you?

How come your son hasn't British nationality? In many countries children simply inherit their parents nationality at birth.

I am also curious about the citizenship of your wife and your son. Is he your biological offspring?

Note that you generally need to have a job in the Netherlands, for the Singh rules (moving back to your home country from another EU member state) to apply. And when you move back to the UK, you have to intend to work.

Once you are working in the Netherlands, I would immediately apply for an EEA FP - it makes it easy for you to pop over for a weekend visit any time you want. You can then get a new EEA FP after the old one is expired. If at any point you decide to move back to the UK, you just go.

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:I am also curious about the citizenship of your wife and your son. Is he your biological offspring?

Note that you generally need to have a job in the Netherlands, for the Singh rules (moving back to your home country from another EU member state) to apply. And when you move back to the UK, you have to intend to work.

Once you are working in the Netherlands, I would immediately apply for an EEA FP - it makes it easy for you to pop over for a weekend visit any time you want. You can then get a new EEA FP after the old one is expired. If at any point you decide to move back to the UK, you just go.

yes a 'rolling' EEA FP sounds like a plan.

Absolutely- a job/business wherever I go- thats the way I was raised.

Some intensive mind mapping going on at the moment- there are several countries involved, including Holland/ Belgium, Canada, UK, Australia, MENA... so my posts are split up to avoid confusion.

Wife and son are (very) real and biological. Son is not able to get UK citizenship (UKM- British mother)....but grateful that at least some of the discrimination has been removed.

Tnx for the ongoing input.

Taking a step back, I was granted UK citizenship outside the UK so have yet to step in as a citizen (previously on holidays).

Do I need to show I have 'settled' in the UK before I can head off to the Netherlands where my family will join me.
Is there a minimum time I need to have stayed in the UK? proof of address, bills?, NHI, registration with any key employment or other government departments?

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:

Once you are working in the Netherlands, I would immediately apply for an EEA FP - it makes it easy for you to pop over for a weekend visit any time you want. You can then get a new EEA FP after the old one is expired. If at any point you decide to move back to the UK, you just go.

No, your history is irrelevant.

When you register in the Netherlands, they will probably record your previous address. This is a purely administrative normal procedure (also for Dutch citizens) and will not affect the rights of yourself or your family.

fysicus wrote:No, your history is irrelevant.

When you register in the Netherlands, they will probably record your previous address. This is a purely administrative normal procedure (also for Dutch citizens) and will not affect the rights of yourself or your family.

great, good to know there will not be too many more hoops to have to jump through, !

There is a thread which is very interesting called 'When is an EEA National considered Resident?' http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=69412
For me I see much more opportunity spending 6 months in the UK and 6 months in the Netherlands- one place for running a sole proprietorship/ freelancing, the other for doing a part time masters with say 20 hours freelancing.
Is this feasible and could I be considered resident in both countries? say I had an apartment in each country with electricity bills etc.

How would each respective country view this residency pattern?

fysicus wrote:No, your history is irrelevant.

When you register in the Netherlands, they will probably record your previous address. This is a purely administrative normal procedure (also for Dutch citizens) and will not affect the rights of yourself or your family.

gb,

gb wrote:For me I see much more opportunity spending 6 months in the UK and 6 months in the Netherlands- one place for running a sole proprietorship/ freelancing, the other for doing a part time masters with say 20 hours freelancing.
Is this feasible and could I be considered resident in both countries? say I had an apartment in each country with electricity bills etc.

How would each respective country view this residency pattern?

I am unclear what you are trying to do and where. It makes it a little hard to answer your general questions.

Are you planning to live and have your children go to school in the Netherlands? Are you planning to spend 3 days a week in one country and 4 days a week in another? Who will be shuttling around on airplanes - just you or the whole family? Are you planning to live for 6 months in the Netherlands and then move to the UK?

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:gb,

gb wrote:For me I see much more opportunity spending 6 months in the UK and 6 months in the Netherlands- one place for running a sole proprietorship/ freelancing, the other for doing a part time masters with say 20 hours freelancing.
Is this feasible and could I be considered resident in both countries? say I had an apartment in each country with electricity bills etc.

How would each respective country view this residency pattern?

I am unclear what you are trying to do and where. It makes it a little hard to answer your general questions.

Are you planning to live and have your children go to school in the Netherlands? Are you planning to spend 3 days a week in one country and 4 days a week in another? Who will be shuttling around on airplanes - just you or the whole family? Are you planning to live for 6 months in the Netherlands and then move to the UK?

Yes it not clearly stated because I hadn't thought it possible until I saw this thread, I mean maybe its still not possible but the opportunity/plan is:

We will be initially registered in the Netherlands living at a dutch address, child will be at university there. The purpose, in part, of doing this will be to activate the Family Permit which enables my dependents access to the UK which they won't normally have had (well, not easily + as inexpensive).
I will set up a business (sole proprietor) in the Netherlands. After activating FP's, the idea is to head off to the UK to do my Msc at a university there for say 6 months of the year, while doing freelance work under the business name or in my own name. I'll have a UK address with proof of services like electricity, which should, if the residency thing works out, enable me to get access to UK masters degree, while dependent completes their degree in the Netherlands.

I fly backwards and forwards as required, my student son and wife visit the UK as they like.

Could this work?

I am not sure if your plan makes sense, but lets discuss...

First off - to get low cost tuition in UK universities, you have to have been resident in the UK for the preceding 3 years. That applies to you, to all Europeans, and to your family if they are entering on the basis of European law. So that may be a non starter.

What is your goal? To live near your kids while they go to University? To establish them and then go off somewhere else, e.g. the UK? Or to move everyone as soon as possible to the UK?

It would not be enough to arrive in the NL, establish a consulting business the next day, register the family as family members of an EU citizen the following day, and then fly off to the UK to study/work on the weekend. I am not sure that would be enough to establish yourself in the Netherlands, and I am not sure the UK would see that you are covered by Singh when you try to being the family with you to the UK.

Note that having a flat in the UK might count AGAINST your story of having exercised treaty rights in the NL if you then try to move the family to the UK on the basis of Singh. More specifically, it certainly will not help your application.

Finally a matter of housekeeping. A "Residence Card" is what you apply for when you are resident in the country if you are the non-EU family member of an EU citizen. Since they kids have NZ passports, they will not require a visa before arriving in the Netherlands. The "EEA Family Permit" is the UK visa issued to non-EU family member of an EU citizen before they arrive. Once they are in the UK, and you are working, they will need to apply for a Residence Card.

Note also that it does not matter how you got your UK citizenship, whether you speak English, whether you have ever met an Englishman, whether you celebrate or mourn the coming wedding, or whether you hate those Europeans... All that matters is that you are a British citizen who is moving to another EU member state and wants to exercise treaty rights...

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:I am not sure if your plan makes sense, but lets discuss...

First off - to get low cost tuition in UK universities, you have to have been resident in the UK for the preceding 3 years. That applies to you, to all Europeans, and to your family if they are entering on the basis of European law. So that may be a non starter.

What is your goal? To live near your kids while they go to University? To establish them and then go off somewhere else, e.g. the UK? Or to move everyone as soon as possible to the UK?

It would not be enough to arrive in the NL, establish a consulting business the next day, register the family as family members of an EU citizen the following day, and then fly off to the UK to study/work on the weekend. I am not sure that would be enough to establish yourself in the Netherlands, and I am not sure the UK would see that you are covered by Singh when you try to being the family with you to the UK.

Note that having a flat in the UK might count AGAINST your story of having exercised treaty rights in the NL if you then try to move the family to the UK on the basis of Singh. More specifically, it certainly will not help your application.

Finally a matter of housekeeping. A "Residence Card" is what you apply for when you are resident in the country if you are the non-EU family member of an EU citizen. Since they kids have NZ passports, they will not require a visa before arriving in the Netherlands. The "EEA Family Permit" is the UK visa issued to non-EU family member of an EU citizen before they arrive. Once they are in the UK, and you are working, they will need to apply for a Residence Card.

Note also that it does not matter how you got your UK citizenship, whether you speak English, whether you have ever met an Englishman, whether you celebrate or mourn the coming wedding, or whether you hate those Europeans... All that matters is that you are a British citizen who is moving to another EU member state and wants to exercise treaty rights...

yes, thanks, all points well made- clearly I haven't really got a grip on this- I was just caught up in the idea of being in two places during a year and the potential opportunities of doing so.
re- kiwi passport- are you saying we don't even need the FP (of course we have entered a number of times over the past couple of years on holiday, no visa required but I thought the FP starts off a process leading to the RC for my dependents). If not then it would be great to just be able to ignore completely that step and if/when we decide to hop over to the Uk, then we just get on a plane.
In that case then, how and when would I prove a dependent over 21 is financially dependent on us- after we land and apply for the RC?

Also just a quick query on the 3-year rule. Normally one would by default have to have been in the UK for 3 years prior i.e.- applying for naturalisation/ILR etc, as that is the route one follows- its a step-by-step set of rules. In my case I'm a citizen by descent- therefore to assume I would have been in the country beforehand is wrong. I would argue that I've not been given the opportunity to move prior to applying - I am in fact a 'brand new' citizen- surely there is some leniency in applying the 3- year rule in the case of UKM applications. I mean I would not have pre-meditated a move to the UK because it was not a route we could take until fairly recently, and generally an application like this is made from the outside, by its very nature. We are instant citizens, addressing past discrimination where British mothers were not allowed to pass citizenship on to their children. Do you see where I'm coming from on this- why should UKM citizens be subjected to the 3-year rule if by the very nature of their approval they are made instant citizens with FULL rights.

gb wrote:re- kiwi passport- are you saying we don't even need the FP (of course we have entered a number of times over the past couple of years on holiday, no visa required but I thought the FP starts off a process leading to the RC for my dependents). If not then it would be great to just be able to ignore completely that step and if/when we decide to hop over to the Uk, then we just get on a plane.
In that case then, how and when would I prove a dependent over 21 is financially dependent on us- after we land and apply for the RC?

So, officially all non-EU family entering under EU law need an EEA FP. But there is also a clause in the Directive, and from ECJ case C-459/99 (MRAX vs Kingdom of Belgium) that allows them to enter without a visa.

All would likely be good if you were French and you were traveling with your NZ wife to the UK.
BUT: You are British and you are going to be moving to the UK (possibly) with your over 21 NZ son.

The benefit of you getting an EEA FP is that you can go through the process of proving that they are covered by EU law while still living outside of the UK. The EEA FP acts as a sort of informal confirmation, which would later be hard to argue against when the RC application is under way. This is especially important, because your over 21 child is not one of the easy family members. See http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2008/04 ... ly-member/ and http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2008/04 ... ficiaries/

gb wrote:Also just a quick query on the 3-year rule. Normally one would by default have to have been in the UK for 3 years prior i.e.- applying for naturalisation/ILR etc, as that is the route one follows- its a step-by-step set of rules. In my case I'm a citizen by descent- therefore to assume I would have been in the country beforehand is wrong. I would argue that I've not been given the opportunity to move prior to applying - I am in fact a 'brand new' citizen- surely there is some leniency in applying the 3- year rule in the case of UKM applications. I mean I would not have pre-meditated a move to the UK because it was not a route we could take until fairly recently, and generally an application like this is made from the outside, by its very nature. We are instant citizens, addressing past discrimination where British mothers were not allowed to pass citizenship on to their children. Do you see where I'm coming from on this- why should UKM citizens be subjected to the 3-year rule if by the very nature of their approval they are made instant citizens with FULL rights.

Yea, I doubt some messed up university financial people would see it that way. "You're lucky we even gave you citizenship in the first place mate!" :-)

I actually suspect the UK university 3-year rule could be successfully challenged in court, but that is a whole other discussion!

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:

The benefit of you getting an EEA FP is that you can go through the process of proving that they are covered by EU law while still living outside of the UK. The EEA FP acts as a sort of informal confirmation, which would later be hard to argue against when the RC application is under way. This is especially important, because your over 21 child is not one of the easy family members. See http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2008/04 ... ly-member/ and http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2008/04 ... ficiaries/

Yes, thanks- to be clear our son is under 21 right now (19 in fact), BUT will turn 22 in December 2013.
(I said 22 because he will turn 22 before he finishes his university in 2014).

The challenge I face is to get him into the UK with a RC before he turns 22.....or take him over as one of quote " those who are older than 21 but still dependent (e.g. students supported by their parents)".

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote: Yea, I doubt some messed up university financial people would see it that way. "You're lucky we even gave you citizenship in the first place mate!"

I actually suspect the UK university 3-year rule could be successfully challenged in court, but that is a whole other discussion!

That made me smile- they certainly didn't gift this out of the goodness of their heart mate!- we UKM's owe this to a couple of individuals who fought tooth and nail to remove the discrimination.

Gents, how long after I land in the Netherlands and have registered with the local authorities and am seen as exercising my treaty rights (own business or employment somewhere) can I then apply for the FP and then move with dependents over to the UK? a month, 2 months?

Hi,

As I see it GB should not relay on the Singh ruling but rather on the carpenter ruling from 2002

Popular explanation: http://www.eucaselaw.info/mary-carpenter-2002/

Tribunal ruling: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 60:EN:HTML

Opinion of Advocate General: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 60:EN:HTML

gb wrote:Gents, how long after I land in the Netherlands and have registered with the local authorities and am seen as exercising my treaty rights (own business or employment somewhere) can I then apply for the FP and then move with dependents over to the UK? a month, 2 months?

It has to be real and genuine employment. So you need to be working for somebody else (part time job at McDonalds is fine), or need to be self-employed but doing real things with real customers and getting real revenue.

There is no fixed rule as to how much you need to work (per week) and for how many weeks.

If I wanted to move and not fight too much with UKBA, I would tend to think that working for 3-6 months is your best bet.