Immigrationboards.com: Immigration, work visa and work permit discussion board

Welcome to immigrationboards.com!

Login Register Do not show

BREXIT WITHDRAWAL AGREEMENT.

Use this section for queries concerning applications on any of the EEA series of forms, and also for applications for EEA Family Permits.

Moderators: Casa, push, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, Zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, archigabe

Richard W
- thin ice -
Posts: 1771
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:25 am
Location: Stevenage

Re: BREXIT WITHDRAWAL AGREEMENT.

Post by Richard W » Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:13 pm

kabuki wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:12 pm
Additionally, we have an 8 month old who is a dual national (Dutch/US) and we'll want to have his rights confirmed. He was born in May and we have docs that only confirm 5 years of accessing treaty rights as of the end of Dec. Could we still apply for a British passport for him or a PR doc?
No. I am assuming he was born in the UK. At his age he could only have PR if a sponsor had come to the end of his/her working life. He would only be British if his mother (or you) had attained PR when he was born, or one of you had most recently entered the UK from the Republic of Ireland. You could apply to register him as British. However, double check that he will not forfeit Dutch nationality by acquiring British nationality after birth. The English Wikipedia says he'd be OK, but I don't think Dutch law is stable enough to be able to trust Wikipedia.

kabuki
Member
Posts: 189
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:03 pm
Location: London
United States of America

Re: BREXIT WITHDRAWAL AGREEMENT.

Post by kabuki » Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:12 pm

Richard W wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:13 pm
No. I am assuming he was born in the UK. At his age he could only have PR if a sponsor had come to the end of his/her working life. He would only be British if his mother (or you) had attained PR when he was born, or one of you had most recently entered the UK from the Republic of Ireland. You could apply to register him as British. However, double check that he will not forfeit Dutch nationality by acquiring British nationality after birth. The English Wikipedia says he'd be OK, but I don't think Dutch law is stable enough to be able to trust Wikipedia.
Thank you. Too much uncertainty at these times. Debating whether I should apply for PR and then citizenship myself. At least then we'd have UK law to keep my family together.

Where is there info on this? - "one of you had most recently entered the UK from the Republic of Ireland". My wife (Dutch) lived in Ireland for 12+ years, but she never took up Irish citizenship. We both lived there together before moving to England.

secret.simon
Moderator
Posts: 7244
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:29 pm

Re: BREXIT WITHDRAWAL AGREEMENT.

Post by secret.simon » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:54 pm

mkhan2525 wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:29 pm
Before Christmas, I wrote to the Brexit negotiating team at the EU Commision to confirm the status of Surinder Singh route and Zambrano rights after Brexit. I have received a response from them today confirming these rights will fall under dometic law after Brexit (see final paragraph).

This could also have potential implications for those relying on the Lounes case as the ruling comes under derived rights.
Today's tweet by the European Commission seems to confirm that treaty derivative rights (Surinder Singh route, Zambrano and Lounes) may not apply in the transition period. That is, they may well cease to apply from 29th March 2019.
European Commission wrote:Mandate received to begin negotiations with the UK on transitional arrangements:
📌No "cherry picking"
📌Existing EU regulatory instruments to apply
📌No representation in EU institutions/bodies
📌Transition period to be clearly defined
#Brexit → http://europa.eu/!qP78Dk
Note that EU regulatory instruments will apply. So, Directive 2004/38/EC should continue to apply. But, even in the transition period, the UK will have left the EU and the EU Treaties (and therefore the routes reliant on the Treaties) would logically no longer apply. Therefore the Surinder Singh route, Zambrano and Lounes routes would shut on that date.
I am not a lawyer or immigration advisor. My statements/comments do not constitute legal advice. E&OE. Please do not PM me for advice.

mkhan2525
Member
Posts: 238
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 8:27 pm

Re: BREXIT WITHDRAWAL AGREEMENT.

Post by mkhan2525 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:14 pm

secret.simon wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:54 pm
mkhan2525 wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:29 pm
Before Christmas, I wrote to the Brexit negotiating team at the EU Commision to confirm the status of Surinder Singh route and Zambrano rights after Brexit. I have received a response from them today confirming these rights will fall under dometic law after Brexit (see final paragraph).

This could also have potential implications for those relying on the Lounes case as the ruling comes under derived rights.
Today's tweet by the European Commission seems to confirm that treaty derivative rights (Surinder Singh route, Zambrano and Lounes) may not apply in the transition period. That is, they may well cease to apply from 29th March 2019.
European Commission wrote:Mandate received to begin negotiations with the UK on transitional arrangements:
📌No "cherry picking"
📌Existing EU regulatory instruments to apply
📌No representation in EU institutions/bodies
📌Transition period to be clearly defined
#Brexit → http://europa.eu/!qP78Dk
Note that EU regulatory instruments will apply. So, Directive 2004/38/EC should continue to apply. But, even in the transition period, the UK will have left the EU and the EU Treaties (and therefore the routes reliant on the Treaties) would logically no longer apply. Therefore the Surinder Singh route, Zambrano and Lounes routes would shut on that date.
This is factually incorrect because we will be moving to a Norway style transition. As long as the UK is still part of the Single Market then Surinder Singh route and Loumes routes will continue to apply.

The EU Commission has stated EU laws will apply during the transisition as though the UK is still a Member State.

There may be implications for the Zambrano route as I believe that relies soley on EU Citizenship and not the Citizens Directive.

secret.simon
Moderator
Posts: 7244
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:29 pm

Re: BREXIT WITHDRAWAL AGREEMENT.

Post by secret.simon » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:23 pm

mkhan2525 wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:14 pm
This is factually incorrect because we will be moving to a Norway style transition.
Note that the tweet mentioned "regulatory instruments" and not laws or legal instruments, etc. I am therefore of the view that the EU is looking at a narrower agreement than is widely expected.

The devil is of course in the details. I think that journalists and people are using the term "Norway-style" very loosely and lazily. It will need to be seen how much of it is written into the Withdrawal Agreement. It seems to me that the starting point of the EU Commission is to focus on the regulatory side of things and that may exclude treaty based rights from automatically getting transposed.

I doubt we will be in the Single Market as it is understood at the moment. There is every indication that it will be "like" the Single Market (or Single Market lite), but I doubt it would replicate it exactly.
I am not a lawyer or immigration advisor. My statements/comments do not constitute legal advice. E&OE. Please do not PM me for advice.

Obie
Moderator
Posts: 14338
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:06 am
Location: UK/Ireland
Ireland

Re: BREXIT WITHDRAWAL AGREEMENT.

Post by Obie » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:27 pm

It will be odd if the EU says on one hand says there is no cherry picking on the four freedoms in the Treaty and then limit its application to the UK.

It will be completely contradictory.
After thinking long and hard, I have come to the conclusion that brexit is a cancer. The only good brexit is a dead brexit.

Richard W
- thin ice -
Posts: 1771
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:25 am
Location: Stevenage

Re: BREXIT WITHDRAWAL AGREEMENT.

Post by Richard W » Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:40 am

kabuki wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:12 pm
Where is there info on this? - "one of you had most recently entered the UK from the Republic of Ireland". My wife (Dutch) lived in Ireland for 12+ years, but she never took up Irish citizenship. We both lived there together before moving to England.
The law seems not to be well understood. The most relevant piece of law is Article 4(1) of The Immigration (Control of Entry through Republic of Ireland) Order 1972. This is what enabled Irishmen to be treated as settled as soon as they took up residence in the UK, whereas Australians, who are also not foreigners, were not so treated, unless they had right of abode (= patriality at the time). The Immigration (Control of Entry through Republic of Ireland) (Amendment) Order 2014, which came into force on 12 October 2014, extended, in its Article 6, the beneficiaries from those who were "a citizen of the Republic of Ireland" to those who were "an EEA national, or a person who is entitled to enter or remain in the United Kingdom by virtue of an enforceable EU right or any provision made under section 2(2) of the European Communities Act 1972”. The original article is why there is such a peculiar concept as a "qualifying CTA entitlement" in the definition now in the British Nationality Act 1981 of who is not in breach of the immigration laws. I found it amusing to read Hansard on the matter, e.g. at https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/l ... 2-0004.htm. You two don't qualify for a "qualifying CTA entitlement", as that is still restricted to Irish citizens, but you avoid being in breach of the immigration laws by your enforceable EU rights.

Entry before 12 October 2014 wouldn't count.

However, remember that naturalisation is at discretion - you could probably be refused on the basis that you were cheating. However, your son's legal position would not be subject to discretion - he either is or is not a British citizen. Note that if you are a visa national, you are probably excluded by Article 3(b)(i).

kabuki
Member
Posts: 189
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:03 pm
Location: London
United States of America

Re: BREXIT WITHDRAWAL AGREEMENT.

Post by kabuki » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:17 am

Richard W wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:40 am
The law seems not to be well understood. The most relevant piece of law is Article 4(1) of The Immigration (Control of Entry through Republic of Ireland) Order 1972. This is what enabled Irishmen to be treated as settled as soon as they took up residence in the UK, whereas Australians, who are also not foreigners, were not so treated, unless they had right of abode (= patriality at the time). The Immigration (Control of Entry through Republic of Ireland) (Amendment) Order 2014, which came into force on 12 October 2014, extended, in its Article 6, the beneficiaries from those who were "a citizen of the Republic of Ireland" to those who were "an EEA national, or a person who is entitled to enter or remain in the United Kingdom by virtue of an enforceable EU right or any provision made under section 2(2) of the European Communities Act 1972”. The original article is why there is such a peculiar concept as a "qualifying CTA entitlement" in the definition now in the British Nationality Act 1981 of who is not in breach of the immigration laws. I found it amusing to read Hansard on the matter, e.g. at https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/l ... 2-0004.htm. You two don't qualify for a "qualifying CTA entitlement", as that is still restricted to Irish citizens, but you avoid being in breach of the immigration laws by your enforceable EU rights.

Entry before 12 October 2014 wouldn't count.

However, remember that naturalisation is at discretion - you could probably be refused on the basis that you were cheating. However, your son's legal position would not be subject to discretion - he either is or is not a British citizen. Note that if you are a visa national, you are probably excluded by Article 3(b)(i).
That's interesting. Shame she didn't apply for Irish nationality. She qualified to retain her Dutch nationality because she lived in Ireland from a young age and completed the majority of her education there. However, we had to move because of the lack of job opportunities with progression. Anyway, we are here un EU regulation and I have a RC, so we are above board and have been. I entered with an EEA family permit and got my RC twice now. Thanks for the info. I know someone who may benefit from this.

I'll be keeping an eye on this thread as it's been the most useful info I've found so far in regards to what's happening with Brexit.

Graham Weifang
Member
Posts: 238
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:33 pm
Location: Cheshire, UK
Mood:
China

Re: BREXIT WITHDRAWAL AGREEMENT.

Post by Graham Weifang » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:19 pm

Graham Weifang wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:09 pm
Hi all,

Another question, sorry.

My wife's Chinese passport expired in November.
She got her new Chinese passport in October, a month before the old one expired.
Her UK Entry Clearance Visa is in her old passport.
Her Residence Certificate is in her old passport.

Are we OK to go to Spain on a week holiday, by taking both of her passports with us ?

Or does she need transfer (don't know how) the vignettes into her new passport.

GW
I have heard that my wife needs to take both her expired one with the residence stuff, and her new one.

GW

ribena
Member
Posts: 221
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:56 am

Re: BREXIT WITHDRAWAL AGREEMENT.

Post by ribena » Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:21 pm

That's correct. Take both passport, with the valid RC in the old passport and the new passport. There is no need to transfer vignette. I travelled in the same manner for a few years. Never had a problem at border control.

horizon1985
Member
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue May 08, 2012 6:30 pm

Re: BREXIT WITHDRAWAL AGREEMENT.

Post by horizon1985 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:46 pm

Hi,
Just a simple question. What will happen to those Non-eea citizens who have obtained PR after divorced. Do they have any chance to obtain settle status under “ withdrawal agreement” ?
Kind Regards

ryuzaki
Member
Posts: 112
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: BREXIT WITHDRAWAL AGREEMENT.

Post by ryuzaki » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:24 am

What will happen to British citizens currently exercising treaty rights and living with a non-EU spouse?

Sounds like to be safe they will have to return together to the UK and apply for residence before March 2019.

aw17
Newbie
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 12:38 pm
Pakistan

Re: BREXIT WITHDRAWAL AGREEMENT.

Post by aw17 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:35 pm

horizon1985 wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:46 pm
Hi,
Just a simple question. What will happen to those Non-eea citizens who have obtained PR after divorced. Do they have any chance to obtain settle status under “ withdrawal agreement” ?
Kind Regards
yes look no 7. its clearly say Family members with a retained right of
residence who are lawfully resident in
accordance with Article 12 and 13 of
Directive 2004/38/EC on the specified
date will fall within the scope of the
Withdrawal Agreement.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... rights.pdf

horizon1985
Member
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue May 08, 2012 6:30 pm

Re: BREXIT WITHDRAWAL AGREEMENT.

Post by horizon1985 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:59 am

aw17 wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:35 pm
horizon1985 wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:46 pm
Hi,
Just a simple question. What will happen to those Non-eea citizens who have obtained PR after divorced. Do they have any chance to obtain settle status under “ withdrawal agreement” ?
Kind Regards
yes look no 7. its clearly say Family members with a retained right of
residence who are lawfully resident in
accordance with Article 12 and 13 of
Directive 2004/38/EC on the specified
date will fall within the scope of the
Withdrawal Agreement.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... rights.pdf
Thanks “aw17” for your valuable response. I appreciate that.
Regards

Richard W
- thin ice -
Posts: 1771
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:25 am
Location: Stevenage

Re: BREXIT WITHDRAWAL AGREEMENT.

Post by Richard W » Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:14 am

aw17 wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:35 pm
yes look no 7. its clearly say Family members with a retained right of residence who are lawfully resident in accordance with Article 12 and 13 of Directive 2004/38/EC on the specified date will fall within the scope of the Withdrawal Agreement.
But
EEA Regulations Regulation 10(9) wrote:A family member who has retained the right of residence ceases to enjoy that status on acquiring a right of permanent residence under regulation 15.
How is that regulation nullified?

It would seem that those who would acquire permanent residence after withdrawal are covered, but not those who acquire permanent residence beforehand!

horizon1985
Member
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue May 08, 2012 6:30 pm

Re: BREXIT WITHDRAWAL AGREEMENT.

Post by horizon1985 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:19 am

Richard W wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:14 am
aw17 wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:35 pm
yes look no 7. its clearly say Family members with a retained right of residence who are lawfully resident in accordance with Article 12 and 13 of Directive 2004/38/EC on the specified date will fall within the scope of the Withdrawal Agreement.
But
EEA Regulations Regulation 10(9) wrote:A family member who has retained the right of residence ceases to enjoy that status on acquiring a right of permanent residence under regulation 15.
How is that regulation nullified?

It would seem that those who would acquire permanent residence after withdrawal are covered, but not those who acquire permanent residence beforehand!
I am not sure how one can interpret “EEA regulation 10(9) here but according to my understanding “ceases to enjoy that status” means free Movement rights and various other benefits which a non-eea could get when he/she as a family member of an EEA national. Once a non-eea acquires permanent residence after retained rights then their stay in UK is solely depend on their personal circumstances.
It is hard to digest that UK will kick out all non-EEA nationals who have already obtained PR after divorce.

Moreover, senior members on this forum can shed light on this issue.

aw17
Newbie
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 12:38 pm
Pakistan

Re: BREXIT WITHDRAWAL AGREEMENT.

Post by aw17 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:54 pm

Richard W wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:14 am
aw17 wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:35 pm
yes look no 7. its clearly say Family members with a retained right of residence who are lawfully resident in accordance with Article 12 and 13 of Directive 2004/38/EC on the specified date will fall within the scope of the Withdrawal Agreement.
But
EEA Regulations Regulation 10(9) wrote:A family member who has retained the right of residence ceases to enjoy that status on acquiring a right of permanent residence under regulation 15.
How is that regulation nullified?

It would seem that those who would acquire permanent residence after withdrawal are covered, but not those who acquire permanent residence beforehand!
[/quot


it dont say any thing about permanent. it just say (amily members with a retained right of residence who are lawfully resident in accordance with Article 12 and 13 of Directive 2004/38/EC on the specified date will fall within the scope of the Withdrawal Agreement.) if read artical 12 and 13 it talk only retain the rights not about permanent.
when you are living in uk law full under these 2 sections you are covers by withdrawal agreement. dose not matter you got permanent. only ir is not clear that after brexit this right of retain will exist or not. any body who got retain right before brexit is covered .

Richard W
- thin ice -
Posts: 1771
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:25 am
Location: Stevenage

Re: BREXIT WITHDRAWAL AGREEMENT.

Post by Richard W » Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:32 pm

aw17 wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:54 pm
it dont say any thing about permanent. it just say (amily members with a retained right of residence who are lawfully resident in accordance with Article 12 and 13 of Directive 2004/38/EC on the specified date will fall within the scope of the Withdrawal Agreement.) if read artical 12 and 13 it talk only retain the rights not about permanent.
when you are living in uk law full under these 2 sections you are covers by withdrawal agreement. dose not matter you got permanent. only ir is not clear that after brexit this right of retain will exist or not. any body who got retain right before brexit is covered .
Your argument seems to be that Regulation 10(9) is invalid. You may be correct.

Unluckyeea2
Junior Member
Posts: 90
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:25 pm

Re: BREXIT WITHDRAWAL AGREEMENT.

Post by Unluckyeea2 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:50 am

Dear moderators , senior Gurus and friends .
Any updates about dual EEA/UK citizens like Lounes case in Brexit Withdrawal Agreement ? What will happen to people similar to Lounes case after Brexit and are dual EEA/UK citizens going to loose EEA rights after March 2019 ? Thanks to all and appreciate your valuable time .

A2ROR
Junior Member
Posts: 97
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:49 am
Bulgaria

Re: BREXIT WITHDRAWAL AGREEMENT.

Post by A2ROR » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:47 am

Hi All Moderators and friends,

Would some explain how this new brexit date 31/12/2020 will work for EU and Non EU family’s s immigration status.

What’s the difference between 30/03/2019 and 31/12/2020 brexit time frame ?

Thanks in advance.

Post Reply
cron