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Do dual EU-UK citizens have rights under EU law?

Use this section for any queries concerning the EU Settlement Scheme, for applicants holding pre-settled and settled status.

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chaoscontrol
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Latvia

Re: Do dual EU-UK citizens have rights under EU law?

Post by chaoscontrol » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:25 am

vinny wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:58 pm
Currently,
that`s all about what will happen after Brexit , but what about now /nearest time before the Brexit happens ? Do the ECJ decisions (like in Lounes case) going directly into the UK Law ? if yes - how long time it normally takes ? :?:
do Dual citizens can rely on ECJ decision in `Lounes`already now (when applying for PR) ?
Guru`s on here -please any info or foreseeing ?
Judicial precedent wrote:Decisions from the ECJ are binding on all courts in England & Wales.
Do that`s mean Home Office caseworker also will be aware about `Lounes case`when making a decision on PR application for Dual Citizens Spouses ,
or is it just UK Courts who have to `listen` to the ECJ ? :o

any info are greatly appreciated. thanks

Cupcake567
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Re: Do dual EU-UK citizens have rights under EU law?

Post by Cupcake567 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:33 pm

Good evening,

I have restarted doing my research regarding dual British and EEA citizen married to non-EEA citizen but I can't figure out the below (after November 2017 decisions):

1. Is it possible as of now for EU citizen who was naturalised as British to keep their EU rights? If naturalised as British can my spouse join me in UK under EEA Family Permit or the spouse will be treated as a spouse of British citizen and then we need to apply for VISA?

2. If the spouse joins under EEA Family Permit can he still remain in UK after Brexit (March 2019)? I am not sure if any legislation is mentioning what is going to happen with family members of EEA nationals living in UK after Brexit?

Thank you.

eeaprneu2
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Re: Do dual EU-UK citizens have rights under EU law?

Post by eeaprneu2 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:28 pm

1- Yes, your spouse will be treated as EEA family member.
2- Nobody knows.

Cupcake567
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Re: Do dual EU-UK citizens have rights under EU law?

Post by Cupcake567 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:56 pm

Thank you eeaprneu2 for your reply.

Can you please point me into a direction of a legal document proving the change of the rules?

I am thinking of applying for BC now, however I am afraid that while I am a dual citizen HO will refuse my partner’s EEA Application for joing me here in UK. We are getting married in few months and we would like to apply for Eea Family Permit after the ceremony. If I apply now for BC I might receive my BC around the same time or a little bit earlier to the EEA application time. Do you think overlapping date will be a problem?

I am very lost now. I am not sure if HO has officially agreed for Dual EEA and British to keep EEA rights. Your help will be much appreciated.
eeaprneu2 wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:28 pm
1- Yes, your spouse will be treated as EEA family member.
2- Nobody knows.

eeaprneu2
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Re: Do dual EU-UK citizens have rights under EU law?

Post by eeaprneu2 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:47 pm

UKVI has not updated their guidance yet so I don't think there is any official notice yet anywhere, at least I haven't seen any. However they only issue guidance, they don't make the law which ECJ has clarified in its judgement.

You can refer to the Lounes case judgement in your application. Their refusal will be illegal and you can appeal against it.

Thats what I would do if I were you in your place but perhaps others on the forum might have a better suggestion.

chaoscontrol
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Posts: 103
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Latvia

Re: Do dual EU-UK citizens have rights under EU law?

Post by chaoscontrol » Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:15 pm

interesting info about implementation of EU law/decisions into EU states :
https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-makin ... -eu-law_en

not sure if what is written in there may apply to `Lounes` case from 14.11.17 as seems like it is still not implemented into UK law months after CJEU decision ..

If these European comission rules apply to Lounes`case then the question arises :
What`s the deadline for the UK to implement CJEU decision in `lounes` ?

If its more than year then Uk may simply WAIT to avoid implementing ECJ decision into UK law ?!
That`s going to be quite a shock for me .. as I am still hoping and waiting for when ECJ decision in `Lounes will take effect in UK ..

alavisneg
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Re: Do dual EU-UK citizens have rights under EU law?

Post by alavisneg » Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:19 pm

Hi everyone,

I am a German citizen and also a British Permanent Resident. My wife is non-EEA national and is living in the UK with me on a Residence Permit which she obtained through my German citizenship. I have held off applying for my British Citizenship as I did not want this to impact my wife's permission to stay in the UK with her Residence Permit, and potentially, jeopardise my application for BC. I really do not want to delay putting in my application for my BC any longer. Am I correct in assuming I am ok now to apply for BC without causing any problems to my application and to my wife remaining in the UK on her Residence Permit?

redvine
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Canada

Re: Do dual EU-UK citizens have rights under EU law?

Post by redvine » Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:10 am

Hi there

I am non eea famil member married with eu citizen. I got my 5 years resident permit at 27-11-2012, my wife’s bulgarian and British (dual citizenship) she got British citizen at October 2014. After 5 years( my eea family member resident permit finished) I directly filled Permanent Residance aplication form (EEA PR) and send at 22-11-2017 and i got my permanent residence card yesterday (8-02-2018) this is my story

I think dont panic for dual citizenship just feel form and send on time.

One more thing i got a letter with my pr card from hone iffice it saying if your spouse British citizen you can apply British citizen as soon as so i dont need wait 12 months for apply to British citizen thats my bonus 🙂

chaoscontrol
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Posts: 103
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Latvia

Re: Do dual EU-UK citizens have rights under EU law?

Post by chaoscontrol » Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:12 pm

redvine wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:10 am
Hi there

I am non eea famil member married with eu citizen. I got my 5 years resident permit at 27-11-2012 and i got my permanent residence card yesterday (8-02-2018) this is my story
Hi there. Thank you for your story. But its not that easy. It is all good apart from my thinking that you are fallen under "transitional arrangements" which lasted till July 2012.
Do you already had a Family permit visa (6 months) at that time ? If yes then this is why HO gave you PR card.

mkhan2525
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Re: Do dual EU-UK citizens have rights under EU law?

Post by mkhan2525 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:21 pm

Britcits has confirmed that SS rights will be protected by the withdrawal agreement and family members will be able to apply for settled status after five years of residence.

Withdrawal Agreement - Phase One

Abena11
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Wales

Re: Do dual EU-UK citizens have rights under EU law?

Post by Abena11 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:31 pm

I’m not sure how this says SS BC family members are protected, I read this that they are currently not included in the withdrawal agreement but an announcement will be made in due course on the status of SSers?

pusched
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Re: Do dual EU-UK citizens have rights under EU law?

Post by pusched » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:59 pm

alavisneg wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:19 pm
I am a German citizen and also a British Permanent Resident. My wife is non-EEA national and is living in the UK with me on a Residence Permit which she obtained through my German citizenship. I have held off applying for my British Citizenship as I did not want this to impact my wife's permission to stay in the UK with her Residence Permit, and potentially, jeopardise my application for BC. I really do not want to delay putting in my application for my BC any longer. Am I correct in assuming I am ok now to apply for BC without causing any problems to my application and to my wife remaining in the UK on her Residence Permit?
I was in the same boat but decided to bite the bullet and apply for my BC. My wife will have been in the UK for 5 years in November and we will apply for EEA (PR). If it is refused, we will appeal based on the November case and if that fails also, then I guess we apply through the UK route.

I just didn't want to wait for her to apply for PR and then me also having to apply for whatever they will put in place for Brexit and then apply for BC after Brexit as only god knows how much it will cost then, timings and still would not be sure what would happen to my wife's status the so decided to go through it and ride the storm as early as possible.

Obie
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Location: UK/Ireland
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Re: Do dual EU-UK citizens have rights under EU law?

Post by Obie » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:15 pm

chaoscontrol wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:15 pm
interesting info about implementation of EU law/decisions into EU states :
https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-makin ... -eu-law_en

not sure if what is written in there may apply to `Lounes` case from 14.11.17 as seems like it is still not implemented into UK law months after CJEU decision ..

If these European comission rules apply to Lounes`case then the question arises :
What`s the deadline for the UK to implement CJEU decision in `lounes` ?

If its more than year then Uk may simply WAIT to avoid implementing ECJ decision into UK law ?!
That`s going to be quite a shock for me .. as I am still hoping and waiting for when ECJ decision in `Lounes will take effect in UK ..
There are many things that Home office does not implement, it does not mean it is not the law of the land.

The Home office took many years to implement Metock, they still have not implemented carpenter.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

chaoscontrol
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Posts: 103
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:12 am
Latvia

Re: Do dual EU-UK citizens have rights under EU law?

Post by chaoscontrol » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:49 pm

Obie wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:15 pm
chaoscontrol wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:15 pm
interesting info about implementation of EU law/decisions into EU states :
https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-makin ... -eu-law_en

not sure if what is written in there may apply to `Lounes` case from 14.11.17 as seems like it is still not implemented into UK law months after CJEU decision ..

If these European comission rules apply to Lounes`case then the question arises :
What`s the deadline for the UK to implement CJEU decision in `lounes` ?

If its more than year then Uk may simply WAIT to avoid implementing ECJ decision into UK law ?!
That`s going to be quite a shock for me .. as I am still hoping and waiting for when ECJ decision in `Lounes will take effect in UK ..
There are many things that Home office does not implement, it does not mean it is not the law of the land.

The Home office took many years to implement Metock, they still have not implemented carpenter.
Thanks for explanation Obie . The law should be always 1.st thing to abide for sure , but I am not sure if the Home Office WILL abide EU law as Brexit is coming (which is more important for them now) and they may just ignore any CJEU decision including `Lounes`.

If this is the case and it will take years to implement Lounes` , I can only hope that UK Home Office respects the law and will follow EU Court of Justice`s decision from 14.11.2017 (when will be assessing my wife`s PR application for example).

Otherwise
1. there may be no enough time for us (and anybody else in similar situation) to appeal , as UK will exit EU by the time we will be in the queue waiting for the Court listing ..
2. even if we get to Court before Brexit will happen , how much more stress appeal process will create for people (already does) and money to the solicitors needs to be paid ...

Obie
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Location: UK/Ireland
Ireland

Re: Do dual EU-UK citizens have rights under EU law?

Post by Obie » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:15 pm

What other options do you have. The money you will pay for FLR(FP) till she qualifies for ILR, will be significantly greater than that which you will pay to pursue an appeal.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

reynaldogr
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Re: Do dual EU-UK citizens have rights under EU law?

Post by reynaldogr » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:06 pm

pusched wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:59 pm
alavisneg wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:19 pm
I am a German citizen and also a British Permanent Resident. My wife is non-EEA national and is living in the UK with me on a Residence Permit which she obtained through my German citizenship. I have held off applying for my British Citizenship as I did not want this to impact my wife's permission to stay in the UK with her Residence Permit, and potentially, jeopardise my application for BC. I really do not want to delay putting in my application for my BC any longer. Am I correct in assuming I am ok now to apply for BC without causing any problems to my application and to my wife remaining in the UK on her Residence Permit?
I was in the same boat but decided to bite the bullet and apply for my BC. My wife will have been in the UK for 5 years in November and we will apply for EEA (PR). If it is refused, we will appeal based on the November case and if that fails also, then I guess we apply through the UK route.

I just didn't want to wait for her to apply for PR and then me also having to apply for whatever they will put in place for Brexit and then apply for BC after Brexit as only god knows how much it will cost then, timings and still would not be sure what would happen to my wife's status the so decided to go through it and ride the storm as early as possible.
Hi alivisneg,

Could you please keep me in the loop once you have a decision?. im in the same boat and my wife is due to apply for a PR in april. When did you submit yours? please, wether the outcome is bad or good, let us know. Some piece of mind will be appreciate for me and my wife. I have never regret so much becoming British. These guys are like facing robot! what a stupid balck hold in the law they are taking advantage on. I understand that to gain the 5 years residence card, they check if the sponsor has dual nationality british/EU national, but once you are in that path, it doens't make sense at all they re-check this for your family member to gain their PR. If this is the case, then your status in the UK is automatically tied up with your family member and if you there to become brisith then your family member is faced and they don't even know what their status in UK is. I have become british back in 2014 and since then, my wife don't know if she has been iligally in the country. Just thinking that now she need to start over again and bllody go back to our home country (now in war pretty much), with my new born (british btw), to re-gain access an start all over again, paying thoughsend of pounds and also having a private insurence after being lawfully working and paying taxis in the UK for all these years, it makes me sick even to continuing living here in this bloody grey country!. Sorry about my working but you can understand my frustration. Im sure something similar is going through your mind while a awaiting a decision. Many thanks. Regards

reynaldogr
Junior Member
Posts: 91
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Re: Do dual EU-UK citizens have rights under EU law?

Post by reynaldogr » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:08 pm

reynaldogr wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:06 pm
pusched wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:59 pm
alavisneg wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:19 pm
I am a German citizen and also a British Permanent Resident. My wife is non-EEA national and is living in the UK with me on a Residence Permit which she obtained through my German citizenship. I have held off applying for my British Citizenship as I did not want this to impact my wife's permission to stay in the UK with her Residence Permit, and potentially, jeopardise my application for BC. I really do not want to delay putting in my application for my BC any longer. Am I correct in assuming I am ok now to apply for BC without causing any problems to my application and to my wife remaining in the UK on her Residence Permit?
I was in the same boat but decided to bite the bullet and apply for my BC. My wife will have been in the UK for 5 years in November and we will apply for EEA (PR). If it is refused, we will appeal based on the November case and if that fails also, then I guess we apply through the UK route.

I just didn't want to wait for her to apply for PR and then me also having to apply for whatever they will put in place for Brexit and then apply for BC after Brexit as only god knows how much it will cost then, timings and still would not be sure what would happen to my wife's status the so decided to go through it and ride the storm as early as possible.
Hi alivisneg,

Could you please keep me in the loop once you have a decision?. im in the same boat and my wife is due to apply for a PR in april. When did you submit yours? please, wether the outcome is bad or good, let us know. Some piece of mind will be appreciate for me and my wife. I have never regret so much becoming British. These guys are like facing robot! what a stupid balck hold in the law they are taking advantage on. I understand that to gain the 5 years residence card, they check if the sponsor has dual nationality british/EU national, but once you are in that path, it doens't make sense at all they re-check this for your family member to gain their PR. If this is the case, then your status in the UK is automatically tied up with your family member and if you there to become brisith then your family member is faced and they don't even know what their status in UK is. I have become british back in 2014 and since then, my wife don't know if she has been iligally in the country. Just thinking that now she need to start over again and bllody go back to our home country (now in war pretty much), with my new born (british btw), to re-gain access an start all over again, paying thoughsend of pounds and also having a private insurence after being lawfully working and paying taxis in the UK for all these years, it makes me sick even to continuing living here in this bloody grey country!. Sorry about my working but you can understand my frustration. Im sure something similar is going through your mind while a awaiting a decision. Many thanks. Regards
i was referring to pusched in my last message. Apologies, im new in this forum

reynaldogr
Junior Member
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Re: Do dual EU-UK citizens have rights under EU law?

Post by reynaldogr » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:15 pm

redvine wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:10 am
Hi there

I am non eea famil member married with eu citizen. I got my 5 years resident permit at 27-11-2012, my wife’s bulgarian and British (dual citizenship) she got British citizen at October 2014. After 5 years( my eea family member resident permit finished) I directly filled Permanent Residance aplication form (EEA PR) and send at 22-11-2017 and i got my permanent residence card yesterday (8-02-2018) this is my story

I think dont panic for dual citizenship just feel form and send on time.

One more thing i got a letter with my pr card from hone iffice it saying if your spouse British citizen you can apply British citizen as soon as so i dont need wait 12 months for apply to British citizen thats my bonus 🙂
Hi redvine,

Could you please clarify when did you apply for the Family member visa/entry clearance? if this was in July 2012 then, you were expected to succeed in your decision as you fell into the transitional period were dual nationality of your sponsor was still allowed. I very much appreciate your clarification as im definitely in the same boat and post Jul-2012. Unbelivale that we need to go through this sort of non sense paranoia just for the fact that i become british. I have mever regretted so much doing so. stupid black holds in the law they are just meant to take advantage of honest and hard working human beings!

Br

reynaldogr
Junior Member
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Re: Do dual EU-UK citizens have rights under EU law?

Post by reynaldogr » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:23 pm

pochaco wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:38 am
Accordingly, the Court holds that a non-EU national in Mr Lounes’ situation is eligible for a
derived right of residence under Article 21(1) TFEU, on conditions which must not be
stricter than those provided for by the directive for the grant of such a right to a thirdcountry
national who is a family member of an EU citizen who has exercised his right of
freedom of movement by settling in a Member State other than the Member State of which he is
a national.


However, will Lounes be able to acquire Permanent Residence?

You can’t count time spent in the UK with a derivative right of residence towards applying for permanent residence in the UK.

https://www.gov.uk/derivative-right-residence
Hi pochaco,

Any lights on these thing RE the derivative rights. I'm afraid if this is the case, there isn't any benefit for the non-eu national as they will be here with a permanent status linked to the sponsor and never able to apply for a permanent residence in this route. An then, after brexit, the most like scenario is that this right will be lost hence, will have to re-apply for the spouse of a BC route.

If not pochaco, anyone else in this forum have got a answer for this? Any in this forum that went through this non sense situation, apply for a PR and have been granted with one? I have never regretted more to become BC really. F..uk ing robots taking advantages of balck holes in the inmigration laws to f...ck inmigrants! apologies for my bad wording but you can understand my frustration

Br

reynaldogr
Junior Member
Posts: 91
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Re: Do dual EU-UK citizens have rights under EU law?

Post by reynaldogr » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:25 pm

lappotto wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:47 pm
I read it on the contrary, i.e. Lounes won't be able to obtain PR, but will be able to stay in the UK, live and work.

I am waiting for the full judgment to have a clearer view, but we might also need to wait the high court dealing with this point, if at all.
Hi lappotto,

any lights on weather or not, would be possible for someone in the same boat as of Lounes, being able to apply for a PR? anyone knows in this forum a objective answers for this?

Br

reynaldogr
Junior Member
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:55 pm

Re: Do dual EU-UK citizens have rights under EU law?

Post by reynaldogr » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:42 pm

reynaldogr wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:15 pm
redvine wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:10 am
Hi there

I am non eea famil member married with eu citizen. I got my 5 years resident permit at 27-11-2012, my wife’s bulgarian and British (dual citizenship) she got British citizen at October 2014. After 5 years( my eea family member resident permit finished) I directly filled Permanent Residance aplication form (EEA PR) and send at 22-11-2017 and i got my permanent residence card yesterday (8-02-2018) this is my story

I think dont panic for dual citizenship just feel form and send on time.

One more thing i got a letter with my pr card from hone iffice it saying if your spouse British citizen you can apply British citizen as soon as so i dont need wait 12 months for apply to British citizen thats my bonus 🙂
Hi redvine,

Could you please clarify when did you apply for the Family member visa/entry clearance? if this was in July 2012 then, you were expected to succeed in your decision as you fell into the transitional period were dual nationality of your sponsor was still allowed. I very much appreciate your clarification as im definitely in the same boat and post Jul-2012. Unbelivale that we need to go through this sort of non sense paranoia just for the fact that i become british. I have mever regretted so much doing so. stupid black holds in the law they are just meant to take advantage of honest and hard working human beings!

Br
moreover, if you had applied for a Residence card (the 5 years one), before the 16/10/2012 you would have fallen in the Transitional Arrangements (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/1547/made). This seems to be the case, as you said the the residence card was granted on the 27/11/17, and this process normally take no less that 3 months. I think im still f u ced! My wife applied for her Residence card on the 13/03/2013. Just 4 months after the deadline!

chaoscontrol
Member
Posts: 103
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Latvia

Re: Do dual EU-UK citizens have rights under EU law?

Post by chaoscontrol » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:15 pm

reynaldogr wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:06 pm


im in the same boat and my wife is due to apply for a PR in april. When did you submit yours? please, wether the outcome is bad or good, let us know. Some piece of mind will be appreciate for me and my wife. I have never regret so much becoming British.
I have become british back in 2014 and since then, my wife don't know if she has been iligally in the country. Just thinking that now she need to start over again and bllody go back to our home country (now in war pretty much), with my new born (british btw), to re-gain access an start all over again, paying thoughsend of pounds and also having a private insurence after being lawfully working and paying taxis in the UK for all these years, it makes me sick even to continuing living here in this bloody grey country!. Sorry about my working but you can understand my frustration. Im sure something similar is going through your mind while a awaiting a decision. Many thanks. Regards
Absolutely same Bro ! these rules pretty much breaking families and I am not talking about all the great stress they made for me and my wife since I became British in 2015 .. if I would know about all this mess I would never naturalise as British citizen .
My non eu wife also must apply for PR in April , she come to live with me here in UK in December 2012 .. Also both been lawfully working and paid taxes for 5 bloody years and have British child now who is 1 year old ..
Also both stressing out about `Lounes case from 14.11.2017 as it is still not been implemented into Uk law and looks like it never will be !
there is piles of different problems for them ,for example Brexit or maybe that they simple not bothered to change anything now as Brexit will nullify CJEU decision in `Lounes as soon as UK exits Eu in 2019.

So , I suspect that there is no answer for us regarding of what HO will decide when we will apply . All we can do is
apply , have our applications rejected and then appeal and go to Court , then 2019 comes , my wifes derivative right to live here will be cancelled and we will need to apply by UK immigration law for ILR or something like that , pay piles of money to get nowhere again ...


here is the link to my `topic` (my story) :
eea-route-applications/i-have-dual-citi ... 44182.html

reynaldogr
Junior Member
Posts: 91
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Re: Do dual EU-UK citizens have rights under EU law?

Post by reynaldogr » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:53 pm

chaoscontrol wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:15 pm
reynaldogr wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:06 pm


im in the same boat and my wife is due to apply for a PR in april. When did you submit yours? please, wether the outcome is bad or good, let us know. Some piece of mind will be appreciate for me and my wife. I have never regret so much becoming British.
I have become british back in 2014 and since then, my wife don't know if she has been iligally in the country. Just thinking that now she need to start over again and bllody go back to our home country (now in war pretty much), with my new born (british btw), to re-gain access an start all over again, paying thoughsend of pounds and also having a private insurence after being lawfully working and paying taxis in the UK for all these years, it makes me sick even to continuing living here in this bloody grey country!. Sorry about my working but you can understand my frustration. Im sure something similar is going through your mind while a awaiting a decision. Many thanks. Regards
Absolutely same Bro ! these rules pretty much breaking families and I am not talking about all the great stress they made for me and my wife since I became British in 2015 .. if I would know about all this mess I would never naturalise as British citizen .
My non eu wife also must apply for PR in April , she come to live with me here in UK in December 2012 .. Also both been lawfully working and paid taxes for 5 bloody years and have British child now who is 1 year old ..
Also both stressing out about `Lounes case from 14.11.2017 as it is still not been implemented into Uk law and looks like it never will be !
there is piles of different problems for them ,for example Brexit or maybe that they simple not bothered to change anything now as Brexit will nullify CJEU decision in `Lounes as soon as UK exits Eu in 2019.

So , I suspect that there is no answer for us regarding of what HO will decide when we will apply . All we can do is
apply , have our applications rejected and then appeal and go to Court , then 2019 comes , my wifes derivative right to live here will be cancelled and we will need to apply by UK immigration law for ILR or something like that , pay piles of money to get nowhere again ...


here is the link to my `topic` (my story) :
eea-route-applications/i-have-dual-citi ... 44182.html
Hi Chaoscontrol,

Just going through your story... Probably you may know all this by now but anyhow. This is what i understand after doing a lot of reading in the subject. I even feel like i know more than the bunch of useless robots the HO has in the EU support line.

- Transitional Arrangements (TA - refer to: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/1547/made), deadline was the 16/10/2012. If your wife didn't submit her application for the 5 years resident card (not the family member/entry clearance, that is something different), then basically you and your wife are in the same boat as me and mine; :(. Basically, once we became BC then, they were not longer enjoying the family member rights of a EU national exercising treaty rights... as you know, from this point on-wards, we were not longer treaty as EA nationals, as per the UK immigration laws! Interesting fact. I don't how we have manged to get in and out of the country so many time under this circumstances, and none of the UK border officer in the airports pick this up. I believe this can be subject to another type of debate for another forum perhaps?.

My case is as follow:

1) Sept - 2012: Got married my wife - Third Country National in her, country of birth (which is mine two - yes, I've got now 3 nationalities, third country as my wife, EA national and British. all of them valid).
2) Dec - 2012 My wife was granted with a Family Member visa/Entry Clearance (Valid from 7/01/13 to 02/05/13)
3) 07/01/13 arrived in the UK to join me
4) March - 2013: Submit her Application for her Residence Card
5) Sept - 2013: She received her Residence Card valid for 5 years
6) July - 2013: I've got my Permanent Residence
7) March - 2015: I became British National (Sadly)
8) Jan - 2018: My wife is entitle to apply for a permanent residence after 5 years of living in the UK, but all this problem came to our sight and we are where we are now...

Her 5 years residence card expire in Sept-18, and we have a couple of family trips that we will like to attend, hence we decided to submit her application for PR once we get back in April (only because once her passport is gone to the HO, we don't know how long will take to get it back).

So my second point to clarify in your case is:

- Your wife is entitle to submit her PR application 28 days before of her arriving in the UK. This mean you could have applied since the 29/11/17 (considering she arrived in the UK on the 26/12/12). So you don't have to wait until the 5th year of her Residence Card issue date which i believe was April 2013 (as you commented). But anyhow, i understand that you want to wait as much as possible to wait until the EJC case is set in the HO case workers guidance otherwise this may be rejected.

Third:

- RE the 5 years period of the Residence card, she is not required to apply for a PR to prove this, so, technically, her job shouldn't be worried about this date. PR is only a confirmation in case she may want to applied for citizenship in the future. I understand, as the Brexit is coming, you both want to secure your immigration status as soon as possible. But, again, she shouldn't be worried to lose her job as UK is still officially part of the EU, and applying for a PR certificate is not mandatory. So if she gets sacked, i reckon you will have a solid case to suit her company (but this is part of another discussion and it is just a thought. I'm not a lawyer really).

Fourth:

- RE the derivative right of residence, i'm in the same opinion, and actually i had the same set mind before reading it from the lawyer student (adinfernos) you have been in contact in your story, where it states the following:

"The key points are:
The third-country national has no derivative right of residence under Directive 2004/38, but does under Article 21(1) TFEU
This right must be "on conditions which must not be stricter than those provided for by Directive 2004/38 for the grant of such a right to a third-country national who is a family member of a Union citizen who has exercised his right of freedom of movement by settling in a Member State other than the Member State of which he is a national".
Because the conditions must not be stricter than those provided by the Directive for an EU national exercising Treaty Rights, I understand that this should include all the benefits that the later is entitled to, including that of acquiring permanence residence after 5 years of acquiring the derivative right of residence as a family member of an EU national."

So, although the Lounes case doesn't go that far, as he was entitled to a 5 years residence card, but they don't specified if this derivative right can be counted towards him having the PR after 5 years. But i reckon the statement above is right. Otherwise he would have done this in vain, as after year or so, once we are officially out of the EU, probably this derivative right will automatically be referred to the BC cases hence, he will be in limbo again.

All in all, i reckon the best way to get out of this mess we've got into it unnecessarily, is by submitting the application for a PR certificate, and pray to god it will fall into a competent case worker, that is aware of this grey area in the HO guidance and also the Lounes case. I reckon is important to comment RE this case in the application, where there is this box where your wife need to state that if his sponsor has another nationality. Maybe make a reference in this box to lead the case worker of the HO to a printed copy of the full case judgment: http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/d ... cid=591857

There will 3x possible outcomes:

1) they will approve your wife PR application. The good news about this would be that she won't have to wait 12 month in this status as because you are British she can become BC soon after she receives her PR.
2) PR is rejected. She will be able to appeal and then take it to court
3) PR is rejected and she will have to go outside UK to re-apply for visa as spouse of a BC. Starting all over again and give to the government that f u kc you up in the first place, more money out of your own pockets.

Hopefully, the first one will be the case. If not, then i reckon the HO will face a long list of appeals and court cases as there will be thousands of cases like us coming as the 5 years after the TA from Oct-2012 are starting just now. I believe, there are also thousands of people in our situation that they don't even imagine how they managed to f u...c k their beloved ones up by supposedly "upgrading" their status in this country. Most of them as well, with British born babies like you and me. Unbelievable.

Lets keep each other in contact, via this forum if there are any fresh news and once we submit our applications. I reckon, by joining forces and letting more people aware of this grey area in the UK immigration laws, the most likely we will be able overcome this sick circumstances.

Br

pusched
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Re: Do dual EU-UK citizens have rights under EU law?

Post by pusched » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:44 pm

reynaldogr wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:08 pm

i was referring to pusched in my last message. Apologies, im new in this forum
I will do but we won't be applying until end November/Early December

reynaldogr
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Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:55 pm

Re: Do dual EU-UK citizens have rights under EU law?

Post by reynaldogr » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:48 pm

pusched wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:44 pm
reynaldogr wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:08 pm

i was referring to pusched in my last message. Apologies, im new in this forum
I will do but we won't be applying until end November/Early December
I see, you are due to naturalise any time soon and then your wife will have her 5 years stay in November then she can a ply for a PR certificate (Hopefully). If you haven't become british yet ill put that on hold if i were you. Then, in November you will still have time to apply for BC. You don't have to wait until she gets her PR certificate as this is just a confirmation of her becoming PR after 5 years since she entered the UK with you or to join you. Actually she can apply 28 days before this, so more time for you to apply for the BC. Once you apply for BC there won't anything that could stop this. Not even brexit. Also, when your wife gets her PR certificate, as you will be BC already by then (or close to), then she won't longer need to wait 12 months in PR status to become BC as this requirement isn't needed when her spouse becomes BC. So basically, she can apply for BC soon after having her PR certificate issued (hopefully, after march 2019 - very likely really). I hope this advise wil make change your mind. TBH, i whish i could now be in your situation. I would have regretted so much becoming British as i'm currently. TBH, i didn't need to become BC. I could have waited until now that my wife would have applied for her PR. I would have even writing here in this forum. Br

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