Do dual EU-UK citizens have rights under EU law?

Unluckyeea2 · Post by **Unluckyeea2** » Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:21 pm

Hello everyone , thanks for updates . Yes , Succsses82 is not covered by TA and he clearly mentioned his sponsors BC and date of naturalisation in application form . I read somewhere online news that HO was aware of Lounes hearing and monitoring closely .
@ Salu did you submitted application through lawyer ?If so and delayed decision they will follow up .Thanks to all for sharing stories . Keep update please .

serginho · Post by **serginho** » Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:28 pm

Hi all. My case is similar, I am an EEA national who came to UK, exercised treaty rights and got the UK nationality. Recently while being a dual national I got married to a non-EEA national – while still exercising treaty rights (working).

She is currently on a UK spouse visa under the UK immigration route.

I applied last week for a refund on the IHS surcharge which was part of the UK spouse visa we did, explicitly mentioning Lounes case and that the IHS surcharge shouldn’t have been charged. That refund application was done by email by paying to contact UKVI using this link: https://www.gov.uk/contact-ukvi-inside-outside-uk I will let you know of the outcome but its probably gonna take a while to hear back.

Now the plan is also to apply for a PR for me and her using also the European passport return service.

I thought that the HO would at least apologise (not to mention provide refunds for forcing us to make a spouse visa application) for their illegal practices of denying treaty rights to EEA nationals just because they made the mistake of getting the UK nationality. But instead of that it seems that, from what I read in this forum, that they still refuse our treaty rights by saying that “the ECJ decisions are put on hold until Brexit”?? They have no right to put anything on hold because they are still in EU and should obey to EU laws. If anyone has an official letter stating this as a reason please let’s make sure it reaches the ECJ. This is beyond frustrating.

I will soon be applying for PR for both me and my spouse, explicitly mentioning Lounes case and will let you know of the outcomes.

Unluckyeea2 · Post by **Unluckyeea2** » Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:09 pm

Hi Serginho ,
Thanks for sharing your stories in this Great forum .Could you please explain in more details your story ?Did Ho refused your spouse's residence card on the ground that you are dual national and then you went through UK law rule ? How did you naturalised without first applying DCPR ? I am on same boat so sharing stories is useful for all affected people and other peoples will be saved from getting in this mess . Many thanks .

serginho · Post by **serginho** » Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:26 pm

Hi Unluckyeea2

Sure i can add more details, whatever information can help people in similar situations is always good.

I did get the PR before being naturalised. I only found out about this insanity that naturalisation causes you to lose rights, when i was reading about Lounes case last year.

The reason why i will now apply for PR again, even though i currently hold both a PR and a British citizenship, is because thats the only way my spouse can apply for a family residence card using the European passport return service without having to surrender her passport.

If she applies for a family residence card alone, she cannot use the European passport return service so she will have to surrender her original passport and can't travel for 6 months until they decide. Thats why i have to apply too and add her in the application (and pay £130 for 2 people instead of the normal £65 for one applicant).

Before going through the UK law rule, i did contact the immigration helpline and they made it absolutely clear to me that a holder of UK nationality can never be consider a EEA national, nomatter the circumastances.

I told them, look guys, my case is not the same as McCarthy, i came here from a different EEA country and have been exercising treaty rights, working and contrbuting by paying my taxes and all, so why are you now removing my freedom of movement rights, just because i got the UK nationality? They told me that once i naturalised, they don't count me as EEA anymore, and if i my spouse applies for family permit she would be rejected. I called the helpline many times and all of the advisors said the same thing.

Anyways, since i was short of time, my spouse applied under the UK rules. I couldn't waste time with her applying for family permit and wait until getting rejected before applying for spouse visa.

Now since her spouse visa is only valid for 2.5 years, it has to be renewed again in the future, paying another £2-3k and then apply for ILR which would cost another £2k, before being able to apply for british nationality which will cost another £2k...

So thats why i am looking for her to get the EEA family residence card, cause even after Brexit, i believe she will have the right to stay without having to apply for th costly UK spouse visa.

chaoscontrol · Post by **chaoscontrol** » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:35 pm

serginho wrote: ↑
Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:26 pm
Hi Unluckyeea2

Sure i can add more details, whatever information can help people in similar situations is always good.

I did get the PR before being naturalised. I only found out about this insanity that naturalisation causes you to lose rights, when i was reading about Lounes case last year.

The reason why i will now apply for PR again, even though i currently hold both a PR and a British citizenship, is because thats the only way my spouse can apply for a family residence card using the European passport return service without having to surrender her passport.

If she applies for a family residence card alone, she cannot use the European passport return service so she will have to surrender her original passport and can't travel for 6 months until they decide. Thats why i have to apply too and add her in the application (and pay £130 for 2 people instead of the normal £65 for one applicant).

Before going through the UK law rule, i did contact the immigration helpline and they made it absolutely clear to me that a holder of UK nationality can never be consider a EEA national, nomatter the circumastances.

I told them, look guys, my case is not the same as McCarthy, i came here from a different EEA country and have been exercising treaty rights, working and contrbuting by paying my taxes and all, so why are you now removing my freedom of movement rights, just because i got the UK nationality? They told me that once i naturalised, they don't count me as EEA anymore, and if i my spouse applies for family permit she would be rejected. I called the helpline many times and all of the advisors said the same thing.

Anyways, since i was short of time, my spouse applied under the UK rules. I couldn't waste time with her applying for family permit and wait until getting rejected before applying for spouse visa.

Now since her spouse visa is only valid for 2.5 years, it has to be renewed again in the future, paying another £2-3k and then apply for ILR which would cost another £2k, before being able to apply for british nationality which will cost another £2k...

So thats why i am looking for her to get the EEA family residence card, cause even after Brexit, i believe she will have the right to stay without having to apply for th costly UK spouse visa.

they will not give you PR again , as you are British citizen and NOT considered european anymore !

f..ckin black hole HO sucked us all in that sh..t , so we pay thousands and thousands just to get to stay in UK even that we are done our 5 years here and payed in the system all that time .. they don`t care .

I am decided for myself : I will appeal, go to Court and spend thousands on Solicitor instead and CJEU ruling in `Lounes` should do the job , cause this is law (they like it or not) and UK is still in EU AND for another 3 years under EU jurisdiction .

salu · Post by **salu** » Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:46 am

Unluckyeea2 wrote: ↑
Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:21 pm
Hello everyone , thanks for updates . Yes , Succsses82 is not covered by TA and he clearly mentioned his sponsors BC and date of naturalisation in application form . I read somewhere online news that HO was aware of Lounes hearing and monitoring closely .
@ Salu did you submitted application through lawyer ?If so and delayed decision they will follow up .Thanks to all for sharing stories . Keep update please .

@reynaldogr: thanks for the support! enjoy travelling while you can. Besides all this mess we are all in now, it is ridiculous we are expected to live without a passport for 6 months without asking any questions...

@Unluckyeea2: I consulted several lawyers over the last couple of years. One helped me draft the cover letter, but I sent the application myself, not through them, so I should be hearing directly from the HO, hopefully soon.

Will keep you posted!

serginho · Post by **serginho** » Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:50 pm

chaoscontrol wrote: ↑
Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:35 pm

they will not give you PR again , as you are British citizen and NOT considered european anymore !

Probably you're right. But then how is my spouse going to apply for the EEA residence permit? If she applies directly using the EEA(FM) EEA2 form then she has to surrender her only passport for 6 months or more which is not something that we can do.

So to use the European passport return service i have to apply for a PR and add her as a family member. But as im also a BC my application could be rejected, as you said, without even consideration.

Why can't they include EEA2 applications into the European passport return service? Its just scanning a bloody page which i can pay extra for, why is that so hard for them...

I have an update also about my recent request for IHS surcharge refund that i paid as part of my spouse's visa application that she did last year. It seems that it will be approved, as she received the following message through email by UKVI: "Thank you for your enquiry. I have asked the IHS team to arrange your refund, which will be credited to the card or account used for the original payment within 6 weeks once authorised." I won't consider it approved though, until I see the money coming back to my card.

Does that mean though that HO is implementing Lounes? To me it seems that HO is completely disorganized and it solely depends on the case worker reviewing each case. If If he is well informed and knows what he’s doing he will then take the correct decision. If not then he will incorrectly reject the application.

Unluckyeea2 · Post by **Unluckyeea2** » Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:38 pm

Hi everybody ,
@ Serginho and Salu thank you for your kindly reply .I guess that Serginho you applied your spouse's spouse visa through UK law before 14 November 2017 (final judgement of Lounes case ) that's why Ho were insisting that as you became B.C. you loose EEA law rights but after that is different situations and if they are positive to refund NHS surcharge that mean they are implementing Lounes judgement. I do have still DCPR blu card with me because as soon as I got British passport and I asked my useless soliciter that should I return blue card to HO and he said to me no need it just keep with me . Thanks to all .Keep updates please .

Unluckyeea2 · Post by **Unluckyeea2** » Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:58 pm

Hi chaoscontrol ,thanks for updates .I am also not abandoning EEA route and will stick on EEA route and will fight court battle . Abandoning EEA route mean not only expensive fees but go through harsh rules e.g. if you loose you job and can'nt earn required income , go back to third country for again entry visa and no guaranty they will let in back in UK . I read news that many people were sent back from airport even they had valid visa . You can't fight from outside UK like you here . Thanks to all .

chaoscontrol · Post by **chaoscontrol** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:53 am

I don`t know what you are talking about : what the IHS surcharge ? And why you think that if they returning that IHS surcharge back to you then that`s mean HO is implementing CJEU ruling `Lounes C-165/16` ?
could anybody explain please what`s all that about ?
Thank you .

chaoscontrol · Post by **chaoscontrol** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:06 am

chaoscontrol wrote: ↑
Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:53 am
I don`t know what you are talking about : what the IHS surcharge ? And why you think that if they returning that IHS surcharge back to you then that`s mean HO is implementing CJEU ruling `Lounes C-165/16` ?
could anybody explain please what`s all that about ?
Thank you .

Ok , got it : you thought: if you’re a family member of a European national then you don`t need to pay that IHS surcharge when applying ...
so , to check if they implementing Lounes you simply applied for money back in case they will consider you a family member of eu national and not british (dual) ?
well.. may they return this money to him because of different reason ?

serginho · Post by **serginho** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:33 am

chaoscontrol wrote: ↑
Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:06 am

Ok , got it : you thought: if you’re a family member of a European national then you don`t need to pay that IHS surcharge when applying ...
so , to check if they implementing Lounes you simply applied for money back in case they will consider you a family member of eu national and not british (dual) ?
well.. may they return this money to him because of different reason ?

Yeah so bascially, im a dual EEA/UK national and my spouse applied for spouse visa in order to join me in the UK, last year before the Lounes decision. As part of that application she had to pay IHS surcharge.

Now she is currently on spouse visa, and I applied for IHS surcharge refund, the only reason i mentioned is the Lounes decision and they said that they accept to refund it.

Ron121 · Post by **Ron121** » Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:02 am

Update. Hello all . Today my Solicetor received a letter from HO to withdrawal of the appeal and we’ll reconsidered my application. And ask him to sen my wife exercising treaty right for the 5 year continues period to claiming for permanent residence.and the give us 10 working days to send all evidence.

chaoscontrol · Post by **chaoscontrol** » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:19 am

Ron121 wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:02 am
Update. Hello all . Today my Solicetor received a letter from HO to withdrawal of the appeal and we’ll reconsidered my application. And ask him to sen my wife exercising treaty right for the 5 year continues period to claiming for permanent residence.and the give us 10 working days to send all evidence.

so, this may mean they gone by EU route now , hence asking for proof of your wife been exercising treaty rights . That`s good .
It is showing that they accepted the fact that `Lounes ruling is binding .

Sorry , I forgot : did you mentioned Lounes` ruling in your appeal (or your solicitor) ?

Thanks for updating Ron121.

Ron121 · Post by **Ron121** » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:41 am

Hi chao . Yes I did mentioned Lounes

reynaldogr · Post by **reynaldogr** » Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:25 pm

Ron121 wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:41 am
Hi chao . Yes I did mentioned Lounes

Many thanks for sharing the progress of your appeal Ron121.
May i know one more piece of information. Do you remember roughly when did you submit your application for the a Residence Card back in 2012 or when did you get your Family Member visa/entry clearance?. Looking at your post this isn’t clear to me and I reckon that may have fallen under the TA. I know you commented that your receive the RC back in Jan-2013, and that you were entitled to apply for PR in nov 2017. This could be the reason your case is now being reviewed again and not the fact that you mentioned the Lounes case. Just a thought

Br

Ron121 · Post by **Ron121** » Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:21 pm

Hi Reynal. I was student I married my wife in 2012 may .but I apply for EEA January 2013 .so I apply for pr in jun 2017 .i accounting 5 year from date of marriage.and than I got refused because my wife she became British citizens in March 2013 .

Unluckyeea2 · Post by **Unluckyeea2** » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:27 pm

Hello everybody , thanks for updates.
@Ron121 good luck mate . So you were present in UK on student visa before applying EEA family member residence card and after your marriage from May 2012 to January 2013 you were on student visa then you applied in January 2013 for EEA family member residence . Which date they approved your EEA family member residence application and issued EEA family member residence vignette on your non EEA passport please ? Just for clarification that you were coverd by TA or Lounes judgement . Positive news .Good luck Ron121. Thanks to all for sharing stories .

reynaldogr · Post by **reynaldogr** » Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:43 pm

Ron121 wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:21 pm
Hi Reynal. I was student I married my wife in 2012 may .but I apply for EEA January 2013 .so I apply for pr in jun 2017 .i accounting 5 year from date of marriage.and than I got refused because my wife she became British citizens in March 2013 .

Hi Ron121,

Many thanks for the info. I appreciate that you are sharing your story in this forum as it progresses and also all the details about it. Just to finish my understanding of your situation, may i know if you got married inside or outside the UK?

There are 2x documents you should have applied,

1) the EEA Family member/or Entry Clearance Visa, that will allow you to join (or come along) with your EEA national spouse to UK after you marry (or demonstrate a truthful relationship).
2)Once here, you had to apply for a Residence Card through the HO.

If this was your case, could you provide specifically when did you apply for these two documents and when they were issued? (rough months will do).

Many thanks in advance

Br

Ron121 · Post by **Ron121** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:44 pm

Hi .i got married inside uk 2012 .and apply for EEA 2 January 2013 issued April 2013

Obie · Post by **Obie** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:56 pm

The problem is you applied after July 2012, so you are not covered by the transitional provision. Had you applied before that, you would have been fine. I guess it may all be under the bridge now.

chaoscontrol · Post by **chaoscontrol** » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:59 pm

Obie wrote: ↑
Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:56 pm
The problem is you applied after July 2012, so you are not covered by the transitional provision. Had you applied before that, you would have been fine. I guess it may all be under the bridge now.

But he is been legally in UK in May 2012(on student visa) .
Do you think this may be enough for the HO to count him as eligible for the PR ? even if he was not covered by TA ?
2. what did you mean by saying:"it may be all under the bridge now" ?
Thanks Obie.

Ron121 · Post by **Ron121** » Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:04 pm

https://tribunalsdecisions.service.gov. ... 00105-2016

Ron121 · Post by **Ron121** » Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:08 pm

I find this court on line .its look like same our situation?

vinny · Post by **vinny** » Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:10 pm

Good and logical judgment.

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