ESC

Click the "allow" button if you want to receive important news and updates from immigrationboards.com


Immigrationboards.com: Immigration, work visa and work permit discussion board

Welcome to immigrationboards.com!

Login Register Do not show

EEA national self sufficient: UKBA response

Use this section for queries concerning applications on any of the EEA series of forms, and also for applications for EEA Family Permits.

Moderators: Casa, Amber, archigabe, batleykhan, ca.funke, ChetanOjha, EUsmileWEallsmile, JAJ, John, Obie, push, geriatrix, vinny, Zimba

Universal soldier
BANNED
Posts: 524
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:04 pm

Post by Universal soldier » Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:04 pm

The following Jambo-Guru post is the best answer which unfold this dilemma. If EU national have some savings then he/she will be self sufficient and then if non-eu national work then this income/funds can make self sufficient to EEA national.
Jambo wrote:It's a chicken & egg scenario.

What the HO is saying is that you can't just be self sufficient because of the non EEA work as the non EEA national is allowed to work because you are self sufficient. So you need to have some savings (for example) for the EEA national to be self sufficient, then the non EEA can work and then it is OK to rely in that income to continue to be self sufficient.

nemerkh
Member
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:52 pm

Post by nemerkh » Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:27 pm

The dilemma is that there is mention that whether the noneu started working in uk and eu is being supported of noneu and being deemed self suff. Obviosuly i cant find another self suff explaination for this and it shoukd be like that. Again i have to say that on the eea application they ask to provide evidence if EITHER employment if the family member OR the funds that they share. Ultimately funds doesnt transcribe only in savings but also in the earnings if the noneu member that the eu shares.

neep
Newly Registered
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:19 pm
Location: Scotland

Post by neep » Sat Dec 14, 2013 9:29 pm

The 'Guidance':
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/polic ... /eun/eun1/
then, seems misleading in saying:
"An EEA national can qualify as self-sufficient based on the income of their non-EEA family member."

Universal soldier
BANNED
Posts: 524
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:04 pm

Post by Universal soldier » Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:19 pm

Another question can be here that if non-eu national is supporting its EEA national partner then which option is more better, either the funds (savings) stay in EEA national account or a regular transfer money for EEA national to EEA national account can fulfill the criteria. Does it make no difference since in both scenario the EEA national is self sufficient?

Obie
Moderator
Posts: 14603
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:06 am
Location: UK/Ireland
Ireland

Post by Obie » Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:46 pm

Guys it looks like there are lots of confusion going on in this thread, and I believe that one needs to clarify things.

An EEA national can claim self sufficiency on the basis of their non EEA family member's income. That is perfectly normal.

The technical question is whether the income was derived from unlawful employment.

If an family member has residence card, but their EEA sponsor cease exercising treaty right, then the UKBA is saying, that notwithstanding the Validity of the card, the person did not have a lawful basis for being in the UK , as the family member was not exercising treaty rights, therefore any income derived from this , is unlawful and will not be taken into account as sufficient resource, as the income was derived from unlawful employnent.

If the non EEA national had leave to remain, which confer right to work, then he could claim self sufficiency.

There are many legal argument for and against this preposition, but that is sort of what UKBA is saying.
Black life matters.

Universal soldier
BANNED
Posts: 524
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:04 pm

Post by Universal soldier » Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:00 pm

But how an EEA national ceases its treaty rights of exercise if he/she is self sufficient on the income/funds of non-eu national. For example non-eu national is working or have funds who regularly give money to EU national and EU national keep that money in its account as saving then still EU national is self sufficient and exercising its treaty rights means it non-eu national have legal basis to work. Is not it?

askmeplz82
Diamond Member
Posts: 1671
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:47 pm

Post by askmeplz82 » Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:05 pm

Obie wrote:Guys it looks like there are lots of confusion going on in this thread, and I believe that one needs to clarify things.

An EEA national can claim self sufficiency on the basis of their non EEA family member's income. That is perfectly normal.

The technical question is whether the income was derived from unlawful employment.

If an family member has residence card, but their EEA sponsor cease exercising treaty right, then the UKBA is saying, that notwithstanding the Validity of the card, the person did not have a lawful basis for being in the UK , as the family member was not exercising treaty rights, therefore any income derived from this , is unlawful and will not be taken into account as sufficient resource, as the income was derived from unlawful employnent.

If the non EEA national had leave to remain, which confer right to work, then he could claim self sufficiency.

There are many legal argument for and against this preposition, but that is sort of what UKBA is saying.

only way to win this argument is by showing some savings even if its £200/£300 in the EEA national or their Joint account the day for example they buy their comprehensive insurance to exercise treaty right as self sufficient
because that saving came from legal income by non eea national ( when EEA national was exercising treaty right as job seeker, worker or self employed )

Later NON EEA national can work and income will be considered legal under EU law

example:

Miss A worked from Jan 2008 - dec 2009

Mr B working from Jan 2008 - till now

Miss A left job and stay at home ; depend fully on Mr B income

Miss A and B apply for health Insurance January 2010: they already have savings from so any income NON EEA nation earn after this will be legal income according to UKBA
Last edited by askmeplz82 on Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
UK Student Visa : 04/2004 - 09/2009
EEA Residence Stamp: 12/2009 - 03/2010
EEA Residence Card : 07/2010 - 7/2015
Eu Settlement Scheme : 01/05/ 2019
Biometrics: 01/05/2019
COA: 03/05/2019
EU Settled Status: Confirmed on 16th July 2019

Universal soldier
BANNED
Posts: 524
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:04 pm

Post by Universal soldier » Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:11 pm

My mind still stick to the 1st reply of Jambo. Becase even non-eu national is supporting its EU national either by working/having funds then if these funds stay in the account of EU national (any saving) then it clearly means that EU is a self sufficient qualified person so it non-eu family member has legal basis. And for self sufficiency there is no set amount as long as family live without benefits.

Obie
Moderator
Posts: 14603
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:06 am
Location: UK/Ireland
Ireland

Post by Obie » Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:12 pm

Provided they dont consider that as abuse of the qualified person requirement and impose a 1 year ban under new rules coming in place in January.
Black life matters.

Universal soldier
BANNED
Posts: 524
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:04 pm

Post by Universal soldier » Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:31 pm

askmeplz82 wrote: example:

Miss A worked from Jan 2008 - dec 2009

Mr B working from Jan 2008 - till now

Miss A left job and stay at home ; depend fully on Mr B income

Miss A and B apply for health Insurance January 2010: they already have savings from so any income NON EEA nation earn after this will be legal income according to UKBA
i think in this example if some balance/saving stay in EU national account even non-eu national supporting then it will work.

nemerkh
Member
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:52 pm

Post by nemerkh » Mon Dec 16, 2013 6:29 pm

I still cant see how this fots on the eea1/2 application. They want the current status. Like in my (noneu) and wifes situation, we have been here for 6 yrs. we are reapplying for eea1/2 5 yrs extension. My wife was self employed and stopped like a year a go then later on we got the CSI and because we failed the PR we r reapplying for eeas now. On the application form and guidance there is no mention of previous employment or self employment. They want your current status and evidence of the sipporting noneu family member ie payslips and employment stuff. Hence this would be a monkey buisness if that's the case.

sheraz7
Respected Guru
Posts: 2509
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:56 pm
Location: UK

Post by sheraz7 » Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:11 pm

Do not be confused from the UKBA team reply which has actually been taken from Guidance - Bulgarian and Romanian casework - yellow registration certificate - version 3.0 (page 35-37).

For other EEA national refer the following guideline and read carefully the Assessing sufficient resources (page 31-33)
Please donot send PM. Write in open forum to facilitate others too.
REGARDS

nemerkh
Member
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:52 pm

Post by nemerkh » Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:27 pm

sheraz7 wrote:Do not be confused from the UKBA team reply which has actually been taken from Guidance - Bulgarian and Romanian casework - yellow registration certificate - version 3.0 (page 35-37).

For other EEA national refer the following guideline and read carefully the Assessing sufficient resources (page 31-33)
Thanks respected guru!! Thats a really nice guidance and it clarifies the resources bit. Obviously after reading it carefully its a pretty straight forward thingy.
However this guidance has no mention of the priciple debate of this thread amd topic. Its the debate of egg/chicken that the eu natiknal should have been working and then supported by te family memeber ie noneu. It was the reply from the home office that is strikingly confusing and worrying. I dunno whether its only for bulg/romas but this really leaves room for the home office to play around and be selective on their judgement.

Jambo
Respected Guru
Posts: 8734
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:31 am

Post by Jambo » Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:38 pm

nemerkh wrote:
sheraz7 wrote:Its the debate of egg/chicken that the eu natiknal should have been working and then supported by te family memeber ie noneu.
The EEA national doesn't need to be working. It is just that he needs to have some resources (savings for example) initially. He can't totally rely on the non EEA income from day 1 (if the only reason the non EEA can work is because of the EEA self sufficiency status).
As most people moving to a new country would have some sort of savings, this is more an academic discussion than a real problem.
Check the FAQ before posting!
Citizenship (adults, children, passport)
EEA (EEA FP, RC, PR, Surinder Singh)

askmeplz82
Diamond Member
Posts: 1671
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:47 pm

Post by askmeplz82 » Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:56 pm

Jambo wrote:
nemerkh wrote:
sheraz7 wrote:Its the debate of egg/chicken that the eu natiknal should have been working and then supported by te family memeber ie noneu.
The EEA national doesn't need to be working. It is just that he needs to have some resources (savings for example) initially. He can't totally rely on the non EEA income from day 1 (if the only reason the non EEA can work is because of the EEA self sufficiency status).
As most people moving to a new country would have some sort of savings, this is more an academic discussion than a real problem.

Exactly nemerkh you can easily argue this with UKBA caseworker

the problem we have here is we can never tell how Home office caseworker look at an application

- in one case where EEA national never worked from day 1 and never had even insurance and they are issued PR ( EEA was dependent on NON EU )

- In another case Home office refused EEA national Self sufficient. her case everything was ok but because that person rarely used the Bank account they refused saying account is not active

- another case refused because couple never had joint account ( it's not a requirement even ) although joint Council Tax, joint utility bills and even joint rental agreement

see the problem is caseworker will find so many excuses just to refuse.
UK Student Visa : 04/2004 - 09/2009
EEA Residence Stamp: 12/2009 - 03/2010
EEA Residence Card : 07/2010 - 7/2015
Eu Settlement Scheme : 01/05/ 2019
Biometrics: 01/05/2019
COA: 03/05/2019
EU Settled Status: Confirmed on 16th July 2019

Obie
Moderator
Posts: 14603
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:06 am
Location: UK/Ireland
Ireland

Post by Obie » Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:21 pm

Essentially the Home Office is seeking to construct argument based on.

ER and Others (EU national; self-sufficiency ; illegal employment) Ireland [2006] UKAIT 00096

and

W (China) & Anor v Secretary of State for the Home Department [2006] EWCA Civ 1494 (09 November 2006)

MA & Others (EU national; self-sufficiency; lawful employment) Bangladesh [2006] UKAIT 00090

The UKBA may well be justified, but it is to be tested.

It follows from those judgement, that there might be a scope for the view they have taken.
Black life matters.

Universal soldier
BANNED
Posts: 524
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:04 pm

Post by Universal soldier » Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:00 pm

Jambo wrote: The EEA national doesn't need to be working. It is just that he needs to have some resources (savings for example) initially. He can't totally rely on the non EEA income from day 1 (if the only reason the non EEA can work is because of the EEA self sufficiency status).
As most people moving to a new country would have some sort of savings, this is more an academic discussion than a real problem.
But if the EU national has genuinely access to non-EU national funds then obviously EU national will always have some resources (saving) to show and be self sufficient. Is not it?

askmeplz82
Diamond Member
Posts: 1671
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:47 pm

Post by askmeplz82 » Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:29 pm

Universal soldier wrote:
Jambo wrote: The EEA national doesn't need to be working. It is just that he needs to have some resources (savings for example) initially. He can't totally rely on the non EEA income from day 1 (if the only reason the non EEA can work is because of the EEA self sufficiency status).
As most people moving to a new country would have some sort of savings, this is more an academic discussion than a real problem.
But if the EU national has genuinely access to non-EU national funds then obviously EU national will always have some resources (saving) to show and be self sufficient. Is not it?

No one disagree with that. It's just source of funds. If it's from legal income before EEA national become self sufficient then of course it's valid.

- Either NON EU national have enough savings from the past employment when EEA national was exercising treaty right either as working, job seeking or even self employed

- or he/she was on different immigration category that allowed him/her to work


if we look at W(China) and X(China) : they arrived from Holland and worked illegally in the UK so fund was illegal

Chen, who had resources originating in China which made her, and thereby the child, self-sufficient in the UK
UK Student Visa : 04/2004 - 09/2009
EEA Residence Stamp: 12/2009 - 03/2010
EEA Residence Card : 07/2010 - 7/2015
Eu Settlement Scheme : 01/05/ 2019
Biometrics: 01/05/2019
COA: 03/05/2019
EU Settled Status: Confirmed on 16th July 2019

Universal soldier
BANNED
Posts: 524
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:04 pm

Post by Universal soldier » Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:57 pm

askmeplz82 wrote:
Universal soldier wrote:
Jambo wrote: The EEA national doesn't need to be working. It is just that he needs to have some resources (savings for example) initially. He can't totally rely on the non EEA income from day 1 (if the only reason the non EEA can work is because of the EEA self sufficiency status).
As most people moving to a new country would have some sort of savings, this is more an academic discussion than a real problem.
But if the EU national has genuinely access to non-EU national funds then obviously EU national will always have some resources (saving) to show and be self sufficient. Is not it?

No one disagree with that. It's just source of funds. If it's from legal income before EEA national become self sufficient then of course it's valid.
how about for example at the time of EEA2 RC the non-eu national was on tier 1 visa which allow working and EU national was self sufficient on the basis of those legal funds from non-EU national employment. Then non-eu national got EEA2 RC and his tier 1 visa expired but carrying on employment with EEA2 RC. But all 5 years spent afterwards that EU national get support from non-eu national employment funds who is now on EEA2 RC. Then in this case initially the EU national was self sufficient on legal funds when non-eu national has legal visa under immigration rules.

nemerkh
Member
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:52 pm

Re: EEA national self sufficient: UKBA response

Post by nemerkh » Sat Dec 28, 2013 5:29 pm

Well worries are half over. Got my RC for an extended 5 yrs. application sent on 1/11/13.

Locked
cron