ESC

Click the "allow" button if you want to receive important news and updates from immigrationboards.com


Immigrationboards.com: Immigration, work visa and work permit discussion board

Welcome to immigrationboards.com!

Login Register Do not show

EEA national self sufficient: UKBA response

Use this section for queries concerning applications on any of the EEA series of forms, and also for applications for EEA Family Permits.

Moderators: Casa, Amber, archigabe, batleykhan, ca.funke, ChetanOjha, EUsmileWEallsmile, JAJ, John, Obie, push, geriatrix, vinny, Zimba

askmeplz82
Diamond Member
Posts: 1671
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:47 pm

EEA national self sufficient: UKBA response

Post by askmeplz82 » Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:33 pm

Confused with the response from UKBA. read the section highlighted in Blue colour


Dear Home Office,

Please can you advise under what regulation or guidance
given to UKBA caseworkers about EU national exercise treaty right
as self sufficient when the couple are separated but not divorced
yet

this is about EU national exercise treaty right with the income of
NON EU national family member when the couple are separated and
living in different household but not divorced yet

self sufficient according to EEA rule: Comprehensive sickness
insurance and Sufficient fund

Yours faithfully,

Samiya





From: European Operational Policy Enquiries
Home Office

6 December 2013

Dear Samiya,


The Home Office has not published any guidance which covers the specific
scenario you describe but I will attempt to clarify how the legislation
would apply in such a case.


(..... )


In summary, the EEA national must have enough money to support themselves
and any family members claiming a right to reside through them without
needing to claim benefits; and comprehensive sickness insurance cover for
themselves and those family members. For as long as these conditions are
met, the EEA national and their family members will have a right to reside
under regulation 14 of the EEA Regulations (and would acquire the right of
permanent residence after five years’ continuous residence in compliance
with the Regulations).


(.....)




In assessing whether there are “sufficient financial resources”, the
Regulations do not specify where those resources must come from, but they
must have been legally derived. So, for example, an EEA national could
rely on financial support from their non-EEA spouse or civil partner.
However, if the EEA national is solely or mainly reliant on earnings from
the UK-based employment or self-employment of their non-EEA spouse, the
non-EEA spouse must have independent permission to work or be
self-employed in the UK (for example, leave to remain under the
Immigration Rules which allows them to work). If the non-EEA national’s
only claim to be in the UK is as the family member of a self-sufficient
person, and the self-sufficient EEA national only has sufficient resources
due to the earnings of their non-EEA family member, and that family member
does not otherwise have a right to reside or leave to remain in the UK,
this would not meet the requirement.



As stated at the outset, the precise scenario you describe (where the
couple have separated) is not covered in the EEA casework guidance.
However, there is guidance on assessing financial support from a relative
or friend in self-sufficient cases on pages 35-37 of the document entitled
‘Bulgarian and Romanian casework – yellow registration certificate’ at the
link given below. As you will see, no account will be taken of the
earnings of a sponsor if they do not have independent permission to work
in the UK. Although this document is concerned with Bulgarian and
Romanian nationals and their family members, the same principles apply to
other EEA nationals and their family members.



[1]http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/siteco....


I hope this has clarified our position.


Kind regards,


European Operational Policy Team

Operational Policy & Rules Unit
Last edited by askmeplz82 on Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
UK Student Visa : 04/2004 - 09/2009
EEA Residence Stamp: 12/2009 - 03/2010
EEA Residence Card : 07/2010 - 7/2015
Eu Settlement Scheme : 01/05/ 2019
Biometrics: 01/05/2019
COA: 03/05/2019
EU Settled Status: Confirmed on 16th July 2019

Jambo
Respected Guru
Posts: 8734
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:31 am

Post by Jambo » Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:01 pm

It's a chicken & egg scenario.

What the HO is saying is that you can't just be self sufficient because of the non EEA work as the non EEA national is allowed to work because you are self sufficient. So you need to have some savings (for example) for the EEA national to be self sufficient, then the non EEA can work and then it is OK to rely in that income to continue to be self sufficient.
Check the FAQ before posting!
Citizenship (adults, children, passport)
EEA (EEA FP, RC, PR, Surinder Singh)

sheraz7
Respected Guru
Posts: 2509
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:56 pm
Location: UK

Post by sheraz7 » Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:36 pm

I believe the UKBA team has given the reply based on the Romanian and Bulgarian nationals who and their family members are under restriction for employment purposes.
I do not think doing employment/self employment is always necessary because an EEA national can still become self sufficient even on the savings/accumulated funds of non-EU family members and for that purposes its access for EU national must be demonstrated.

If you are economically self-sufficient:
you need to supply evidence of comprehensive
sickness insurance for yourself and any family members included in your application. You Guidance for Making an EEA Application (Version 08/2013) - Page 3 of 8
also need to supply evidence of funds sufficient to maintain yourself and any family members
included in your application during the time you intend to reside on this basis. These funds can
come from the employment or self-employment of any of your family members legally working
and residing in the UK with you. Documentary evidence of their employment or funds should
be supplied.
Please donot send PM. Write in open forum to facilitate others too.
REGARDS

askmeplz82
Diamond Member
Posts: 1671
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:47 pm

Post by askmeplz82 » Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:16 pm

Me too agree with Sheraz.

So EEA national can't even depend on the saving of an NON EEA national according to that case worker?

consider this case

: EEA national worked in the UK lets say 2/3 years then stopped working and become self sufficient on the saving of NON EU national

and this NON EEA saving in the Bank can come from work he/she done when EEA national was working too for 2/3 years
UK Student Visa : 04/2004 - 09/2009
EEA Residence Stamp: 12/2009 - 03/2010
EEA Residence Card : 07/2010 - 7/2015
Eu Settlement Scheme : 01/05/ 2019
Biometrics: 01/05/2019
COA: 03/05/2019
EU Settled Status: Confirmed on 16th July 2019

nemerkh
Member
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:52 pm

Post by nemerkh » Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:40 am

So let me get it straight. My wife and i recently applied for another 5 yrs of eea1/2. We have a joint bank account. I (noneu) am full time employed and we live from my salary. According to the above mentioned clause by the home office we dont qualify for the sekf sufficient route??

askmeplz82
Diamond Member
Posts: 1671
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:47 pm

Post by askmeplz82 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:51 am

nemerkh wrote:So let me get it straight. My wife and i recently applied for another 5 yrs of eea1/2. We have a joint bank account. I (noneu) am full time employed and we live from my salary. According to the above mentioned clause by the home office we dont qualify for the sekf sufficient route??

Like Jambo said it's Chicken or Egg case

I see this way:

Lets say the couple have joint account together and some savings in there and that savings comes from NON EEA national income when EEA national was exercising treaty right as a worker so obviously it's legal income.

And later if EEA national become self sufficient with the income from NON EEA national then that fund will still be accepted and will be considered legal income because that saving didn't start after EEA national become self sufficient

So as long as NON EEA/EEA have some funds in the account before they become self sufficient it will be accepted.

Do you agree?
UK Student Visa : 04/2004 - 09/2009
EEA Residence Stamp: 12/2009 - 03/2010
EEA Residence Card : 07/2010 - 7/2015
Eu Settlement Scheme : 01/05/ 2019
Biometrics: 01/05/2019
COA: 03/05/2019
EU Settled Status: Confirmed on 16th July 2019

nemerkh
Member
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:52 pm

Post by nemerkh » Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:29 am

Ok makes sense theoretically, in practice though when u apply for the eea1/2 you have to provide your current evidence. How will the HO be able to breakdown whose funds its is on the saving account?
In Addition to that as mentioned on the eea1/2 application for self suf,it only says that they need evidence the family member employment OR funds. So i am assuming only employment should do, therefore as long as the family member is employed and the eu national has got access thru joint account it should be fine then ?!

askmeplz82
Diamond Member
Posts: 1671
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:47 pm

Post by askmeplz82 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:02 am

nemerkh wrote:Ok makes sense theoretically, in practice though when u apply for the eea1/2 you have to provide your current evidence. How will the HO be able to breakdown whose funds its is on the saving account?
In Addition to that as mentioned on the eea1/2 application for self suf,it only says that they need evidence the family member employment OR funds. So i am assuming only employment should do, therefore as long as the family member is employed and the eu national has got access thru joint account it should be fine then ?!

yes that is what it should be but home office saying fund should come from someone who have individual right to work in the UK not as a family member of the EU national.

I think that's only if EEA national apply for EEA1 as self sufficient when he/she first come to the UK and depend on NON EU national income .

example:

Ms A a german national came to the UK with her NON EU husband B. Husband B found a job with EEA family permit and then Ms A and Mr B apply for EEA1/EEA2 as self sufficient with the income from Mr B

Home Office then may not accept that Ms A self sufficient on the income of MR B because Mr B don't have individual right other then family member of an EU national

But in another example:

Ms A a german national come to the UK with her NON EU husband B
both Ms A and Mr B found job then after 6 months Ms A stop working but Mr B continue working and later they apply for EEA1/EEA2 as self sufficient with the income from Mr B

Home Office may accept now that EEA national self sufficient because part of the saving / income came from when Ms A was exercising treaty right so Mr B has right that time to work as family member of an EU national
UK Student Visa : 04/2004 - 09/2009
EEA Residence Stamp: 12/2009 - 03/2010
EEA Residence Card : 07/2010 - 7/2015
Eu Settlement Scheme : 01/05/ 2019
Biometrics: 01/05/2019
COA: 03/05/2019
EU Settled Status: Confirmed on 16th July 2019

nemerkh
Member
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:52 pm

Post by nemerkh » Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:52 am

Ok. So according to the second variant i e both worked then eu national stopped and continued in the uk as a self suff relying on noneu husbands income; when we apply for EEa1/2 you dont mention in the self sufficient section whether you were employed ir not. All they ask for is evidence of family member employment, csi , joint account etc. so considering both variants of mrs A on application it will look the same. Youll just fill out your current position in the uk. So thats what i mean; they dont specifically ask in the app you prev employment or status prior to becoming self suff

sheraz7
Respected Guru
Posts: 2509
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:56 pm
Location: UK

Post by sheraz7 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:42 pm

Do not be confused/confuse others from the ukba team reply over self sufficiency for Bulgarian and Romanian nationals because other member states nationals and their family donot need to have leave to remain under immigration rules for working or living. As long as EU national and their family members are not a burden on public funds then they are self sufficient with the funds they have, but eea national must be able to have access to those funds.
Please donot send PM. Write in open forum to facilitate others too.
REGARDS

nemerkh
Member
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:52 pm

Post by nemerkh » Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:57 pm

Ok so am a bit paranoid now actually. My wife (latvian) and i (russian-noneu) have been in the uk for 6 yrs. initially got eea as my wofe self emp. Failed our RC/PR due to lack of evidence and failed appral via solicitor. Hence at the moment i am employed, we have a joint account, we are no birden in fact the oppsoite and we sent the application for anothe eea1/2 5 yrs extention on the basis that my wife is self suff. Obvious because of the joint account my wife has access to funds. Does the HOME OFFICE quotation in this poat apply to us??

rodzynek
Newly Registered
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:00 pm

Post by rodzynek » Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:03 pm

sheraz7 wrote:. As long as EU national and their family members are not a burden on public funds then they are self sufficient with the funds they have, but eea national must be able to have access to those funds.
Do you mean the funds must be in joint bank account?
In our case the savings and income was in non EEA family members account. to which I (EU nation) had an access.

sheraz7
Respected Guru
Posts: 2509
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:56 pm
Location: UK

Post by sheraz7 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:26 pm

A joint account is not necessary and if it is not joint account then access can be demonstrated if funds are regularly transferred from non-eu national account to eu national account. Otherwise the funds access to eu national cannot demonstrate which will not meet the criteria for which several threads are already available.
Please donot send PM. Write in open forum to facilitate others too.
REGARDS

rodzynek
Newly Registered
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:00 pm

Post by rodzynek » Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:35 pm

Thanks for you reply
So probably our application for PR will be refused as we can not prove that i had access to my husbands account.
On that other hand how can they know that money deposited to my husbands account where not my savings from time when i was working?

So confused.

Our case:

My (EU nation):
working 12.2006 till 9.2009
Maternity 9.2009 till 6.2010
Self sufficient (on my husbands income) till 9.2012
9.2012 - present Student
and from 4.1013 Self employed

askmeplz82
Diamond Member
Posts: 1671
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:47 pm

Post by askmeplz82 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:13 pm

rodzynek wrote:Thanks for you reply
So probably our application for PR will be refused as we can not prove that i had access to my husbands account.
On that other hand how can they know that money deposited to my husbands account where not my savings from time when i was working?

So confused.

Our case:

My (EU nation):
working 12.2006 till 9.2009
Maternity 9.2009 till 6.2010
Self sufficient (on my husbands income) till 9.2012
9.2012 - present Student
and from 4.1013 Self employed
Well joint account is not requirement but will definitely help proving that EEA have access to that fund when needed
Better then sending money to an EEA national account every months
and this days they even check how active account was
So I would recommend use that joint account while shopping
UK Student Visa : 04/2004 - 09/2009
EEA Residence Stamp: 12/2009 - 03/2010
EEA Residence Card : 07/2010 - 7/2015
Eu Settlement Scheme : 01/05/ 2019
Biometrics: 01/05/2019
COA: 03/05/2019
EU Settled Status: Confirmed on 16th July 2019

nemerkh
Member
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:52 pm

Post by nemerkh » Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:53 pm

nemerkh wrote:Ok so am a bit paranoid now actually. My wife (latvian) and i (russian-noneu) have been in the uk for 6 yrs. initially got eea as my wofe self emp. Failed our RC/PR due to lack of evidence and failed appral via solicitor. Hence at the moment i am employed, we have a joint account, we are no birden in fact the oppsoite and we sent the application for anothe eea1/2 5 yrs extention on the basis that my wife is self suff. Obvious because of the joint account my wife has access to funds. Does the HOME OFFICE quotation in this poat apply to us??
Could someone give me an input on the above quoted plzzz??!!

sheraz7
Respected Guru
Posts: 2509
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:56 pm
Location: UK

Post by sheraz7 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:56 pm

nemerkh wrote:
nemerkh wrote:Ok so am a bit paranoid now actually. My wife (latvian) and i (russian-noneu) have been in the uk for 6 yrs. initially got eea as my wofe self emp. Failed our RC/PR due to lack of evidence and failed appral via solicitor. Hence at the moment i am employed, we have a joint account, we are no birden in fact the oppsoite and we sent the application for anothe eea1/2 5 yrs extention on the basis that my wife is self suff. Obvious because of the joint account my wife has access to funds. Does the HOME OFFICE quotation in this poat apply to us??
Could someone give me an input on the above quoted plzzz??!!
you should be fine. Apart of that you must have CSI too covering whole family.
Please donot send PM. Write in open forum to facilitate others too.
REGARDS

nemerkh
Member
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:52 pm

Post by nemerkh » Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:06 pm

Yes got that from axa with my, wifes and kids names on it. Fingers crossed.

Obie
Moderator
Posts: 14603
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:06 am
Location: UK/Ireland
Ireland

Post by Obie » Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:59 pm

That seem to be the position of the UKBA in regards to Self-Sufficiency.

See par 9-11 of this judgement. Presenting officers are been advised to deploy these argument at the tribunal.

This matter will get further i believe.
Black life matters.

nemerkh
Member
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:52 pm

Post by nemerkh » Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:22 pm

So as far as i understood, CSI played the most vital role in determining the self sufficiency in this case regardless. Had the husband had CSI then they probably would have won the appeal

Locked
cron