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Sadly this is the theory only. Your experience is a happy example, and I'm glad you had no problems, but there are a number of threads from other members in this forum that describe their nightmare experience with airlines due to not having specific EEA documentation before traveling.garageland wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:25 amSo a UK residence card is not required and "It is therefore not compulsory for family members of EEA nationals to obtain an EEA family permit before travelling to the UK" according to former immigration minister Damian Green (https://eumovement.wordpress.com/category/visas/) All that's need it proof of marriage.
The law is theory.
This statement is theory.The marriage certificate is how that right is proven.
kamoe wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:50 pmPlease note that I am aware of the legislation, and I am aware about who should be legally allowed in the UK, as you correctly quote. I am not contesting that. It is trully sad to hear that people with the genuine right to enter the UK but without EEA documentation have not been allowed in planes bound to the UK, and I am not trying to justify it.
I am simply pointing out that there is a difference between theory and practice, that people have been denied boarding, and that is a fact which I am reporting, and of which is important that people are aware. Having the minimum documentation that is legally required (in this case, a marriage certificate) might in many cases not be enough, and it is better to be safe than sorry.
There are available EEA application processes specifically designed to avoid such annoyances, and it is wise to consider them before deciding you do not need them. And in any case, never advise anyone to ignore them.
The OP is right in suggesting that it is possible to enter the UK without EEA documentation,if the non-EU spouse does not need a visa, and if you procure a marriage certificate. They give their own experience as an example.
No one is saying that rejections occur at the border. It's important to make the difference.I don't think I have read anyone's story in this forum about being rejected at the UK border for not having a Family Permit when they were accompanied by the EEA partner. Some might have had a harder time or taken a while until they were cleared, but rejections would be very rare.
Indeed.And a TOTALLY different story is with the airlines at the country of origin. If you are required a visitor visa for tourism regular visit, it is very likely that the 23 year old airline worker, who is more interested in her snapchat than on the passangers, will not allow you to board the plane, no matter what the law says... simply because they are not trained on EU laws that much I guess.
If you read closer, no one here is saying at any point that immigration officials don't know the law.garageland wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:38 pmI am well aware that many immigration officers are not fully conversant with the law.
This is inaccurate. In a number of government pages it is clearly stated that a EEA Family permit and/or residence Card is not always a requirement, but that procuring it is recommended to avoid any trouble, which is only a sensible thing to say.I'm also aware that the government try to make people think that the EEA Permit is a requirement. IT IS NOT. The government have admitted this.
You have to be not paying attention to what has been said and carefully explained above, to interpret from all of our comments that we are trying to make people not come to the UK. We are trying to advise people on how to avoid troubles, and leading them in the best way possible so that their entry in UK territory is as smooth as possible. EEA documentation is free and trated in priority, procuring it is not, in any way, a way to deter anyone from coming.Please don't try and deter people who have every right to enter the UK on the basis I have explained. Don't let the hostile environment and the scaremongering put people off.
Yes, your testimony is helpful to illustrate how this can be possible, for your specific circumstances, and it is a positive addition to the board, provided you understand this is a particular case and not the overal rule.I haven't outlined my experience precisely in order to show people that this route is absolutely viable and legally sound.
We = me and other posters on this thread who have explained why some people might need a EEA Family Permit or Residence Card.garageland wrote: ↑Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:39 amKamoe. Who is this "we" you claim to be speaking on behalf of?
I am trying to make sure no one misinterpret your experience as evidence that no one needs a EEA Residence Card. Note that I am never saying: "Do not come to the UK without a EEA Documentation, as otherwise you will not be allowed in in any circumstance".garageland wrote: ↑Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:33 amKamoe. You, for some reason, are trying to deter people from this legally sound EEA route. I’m suspicious as to why.
You are reading too much into this. Not claiming anything here.(Using “we” as if you’re part of some army of experts is also particularly disingenuous).
Never said it was.Our success was not the result of a gamble.
That is great to hear, and as I said in my first paragraph of my first reply, I am glad this worked for you.It was the result of sound legal advice and months of preparation of documentation. I went to the immigration law firm recommended to me by my MP and had the law fully explained to me in detail.
I am at no point saying anything that is not factual, incorrect, or that contradicts the law.Law that you don’t seem to understand.
I made the clarification, because no one said anything about immigration officials ignoring the law. All comments were made exclusively about airline staff acting in contradiction with the law. Yo uthen expressed you were aware of immigration officials ignoring the law, which seemed to suggest that your later comment confused the two figures. Good to hear that is not the case.I’m perfectly aware of the difference between airline staff and immigration officials.
A clarification of concepts is one thing, implying someone is stupid is another. Connecting the two is only the result of your interpretation. As I said, the comment was made to clarify two very key and potentially confusing concepts for anyone reading this thread. Not implying anyone is stupid, and if that's your impression, again, you have my apologies.Trying to pretend that the person with whom you disagree is stupid is not going to work.
I clearly referred to your wife's nationality as being more fortunate than others (others = which need a visa), so this was clear to me, as it was clear to me that, in your particular circumstances, it is not a surprise you personally did not have any trouble.What IS stupid is for you to fail to read closely what I said at the beginning of the original post. I clearly stated that my wife has visa free access to the UK because hers is a Saint Kitts and Nevis passport. This is why we had no problems with airline staff.
A EEA documentYou claim the government assert that documentation such as an EEA permit or residence card is “not ALWAYS a requirement”.
Wrong. It is just not needed. “It is therefore not compulsory for family members of EEA nationals to obtain an EEA family permit before travelling to the UK”. A letter by Damian Green, the former immigration minister.
How exactly is suggesting that people be cautions and first check if they need to apply for EEA documentation (because as we have established some people truly might need it), a way of confusing and deterring people?Your comments are going to confuse people and deter people from this legally sound route.
I have provided examples of testimonies in this forum, as other posters have also done. It's true that that is not legal evidence, but as I said earlier, we are dealing here with two levels:You have not provided legal evidence of your position.
No one is saying the contrary. No one is saying you were "lucky", no one is saying you in particular could have encountered problems.However legal precedent has been set in my case. Try looking at the MRAX v the Kingdom of Belgium case (2002) in which the European Court of Justice ruled that “a Member State may not send back at the border a third country national who is married to a national of a Member State and attempts to enter its territory without being in possession of a valid identity card or passport or, if necessary, a visa, where he is able to prove his identity and the conjugal ties”.
My testimony is not an example of good fortune as a result of “my specific circumstances”. It’s an example of what the law allows if an EEA (non-UK) citizen wishes to bring their non-EEA (with visa-free passport) spouse to an EEA state (including, until 31st October, the UK).
THANK YOU!So please realise that no one is claiming that this case is applicable to “everyone”.
Again, needs to be read with caution because of the aforementioned airline problem.But the law on free movement IS applicable to EEA citizens and their non-EEA (visa-free) family members.
"aka" was meant to refer to the less fortunate nationalities, not your wife's nationality. Otherwise I would not have used the adjective "fortunate" to describe it if I was implying she needed a visa. So, yes, I completely understood that she did not need a visa.Your assertion that there has been serious trouble experienced by those with “less fortunate nationalities than your spouse (aka requiring visas)” shows, once again, that you did not read my original testimony correctly. I clearly stated in the third sentence that “My partner has a St Kitts and Nevis passport (Commonwealth country; six months visa free access to the UK).” Please read it again and please stop trying to deter people from this legally sound and legally proven route.
How do you claim to know what was on my head when I wrote that? Please be respectful, and be open to revise your understanding.
As explained above, I correctly understood she did not need a visa, reason for which I used the adjective "less fortunate" to refer to nationalities that needed a visa.There is one other that also didn't correctly read my point about my wife's visa-free passport.
Again, I never said you gambled, I never said you were lucky, I never said that married non-EU nationals who did not need a visa would absolutely need a EEA document to get into the UK. My comments were a cautionary tale for people not to interpret that your case would apply to everyone and that no one would need EEA documentation.But only you are stubbornly trying to assert that in a case such as mine, an EEA Family Permit or Residence Card is needed. It is not.
Yes, we agree on this 100% form the start.garageland wrote: ↑Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:49 amSo, we’re agreed. It is not the case that “no one needs an EEA Residence Card” or an EEA Permit. But that if a couples’ legal status is the same as mine and my wife’s (an EEA citizen with a non-EEA visa-free passport spouse) then it is the case that they do not need such documents.
The issue is that, once extended family members are issued with EEA documentation, they must be treated as family members within EU regulations.In response to my referencing the Damian Green letter, you have introduced two new issues. Firstly, extended family members. I have not made reference to this and have consistently made clear that my case was of a direct family member, my spouse. Secondly, nationals requiring entry visas. Again, I keep repeating that my wife did not require an entry visa. Please don’t confuse the issue and introduce extraneous factors.
Hence why many people could amalgamate the two and believe it's the same thing; also, people unfamiliar with the terminology might not even be aware there is a difference. For the sake of simplicity, I thought it was best to point out that in some cases a document is actually necessary (the onus is ultimately on each person to check what applies to their particular case, just as you have made).Extended family members must be treated as family members for the purposes of
the Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2016 (the 2016 regulations)
if they have been issued with an EEA family permit, a registration certificate or a
residence card and continue to satisfy the conditions set out in regulation 7(3).[
I believe we both made each a key mistake:I would still assert that your posts have only served to confound what I’m trying to do to help others.
I'm sorry to hear of the difficulties you have experienced, and I am truly glad your were able to sort it out in the best and most effective way that was possible for you, and that you are able to share it for the benefits of others in the same circumstances.I have spent months reading testimonies, seeking legal advice and trying to get clear exactly what routes work, what legal status is required and what documentation is needed. It has been hell. It’s been, without doubt, most stressful year of my life. My partner was refused entry to the UK two years ago and has not returned to the UK to see me during that time. We have been through so many painful, emotional ups and downs. So, when we approached immigration control at Gatwick we were unbearably nervous and anxious. But the response of the immigration officer vindicates everything I’m arguing here and the excellent legal advice we were given.
Again, this is very helpful, and I am glad you shared.I'm now happily married and living in the UK with my partner of over ten years. So, I could take an "I'm alright Jack" position. But, I’ve publicly posted my testimony in a selfless attempt to reassure those looking at this route in order to show them that it DOES work. Please don’t undermine this, please don’t confuse people and please consider the extent that your posts maybe deterring others who are considering this route. It does work. Our case shows that it works.
Yes, hence the "aka needing a visa" sentence. BTW I have one of those unfortunate nationalities, so in no way this was meant as a demeaning adjective.Your last point about “less fortunate” nationalities seems to be code for those nationalities that need visas.
Yes, agreed 100% from the beginning. Not a single one of my posts meant to imply otherwise.So, can we finally reach a consensus? EEA citizens with spouses/direct families members who are non-EEA but have no visa requirement can enter EU member states (including the UK up until 31st October) without an EEA Family Permit, without a Residence Card, as long as they can provide the marriage certificate and evidence that the EEA citizen is living and working in the EEA member state to which the couple are travelling.