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EEA4 refuse on self sufficiency without CSI

Use this section for queries concerning applications on any of the EEA series of forms, and also for applications for EEA Family Permits.

Moderators: Casa, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, Zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, archigabe, push

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sconzy
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EEA4 refuse on self sufficiency without CSI

Post by sconzy » Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:20 am

Could you please advise me if I stand a chance wining an appeal against the home office decision on refusing my application on permanent residence

my wife is an EEA national who has been excising treaty right in the UK

we arrived here in the UK on October 2006

she worked from October 2006 to december 2008.(full time work) contributed to NI and paid taxes
January 2009 to august 2010 self sufficient (hold EHIC card issued by UK )(income from my employment as support)
September 2010 to july 2011( full time work ) taxes and NI paid
july 2011 to july 2012 (self employed full time) taxes and NI paid
July 2012 to now (full time work )

I am a non-EEA national and the Home office has refused my application base on self sufficient without Comprehensive Sickness Insurance.

I want to appeal this decision and wants to know if I stand a chance.

Lucapooka
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Post by Lucapooka » Fri Aug 17, 2012 8:45 am

I can't offer any hope.

fysicus
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Post by fysicus » Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:21 am

The appeal is likely to be unsuccessful, but I would still encourage you to go ahead with it. The CSI requirements as UKBA sees them are highly questionable from a legal point of view, and any chance to test them in court is wellcome, and may be even get the view of the ECJ on this.

In the Netherlands, for example, everybody resident in NL (including the natives) must take out a basic health insurance with a NL-based company (which typically costs around 1000 euro per person per year), and this is seen as sufficient to comply with the health insurance requirements from directive 2004/38. It is possible for anyone who wishes so to take extra insurance for treatments and illnesses not covered by the basic insurance, which similar to the private insurance that some people in UK have, on top of their NHS entitlement.

In the UK, you could argue, the NHS takes the position of the basic insurance in the Netherlands, and if UKBA forces EU nationals to take out health insurance that Brits do not need, that can be seen as discrimination on the basis of nationality, which is unlawful.

For as far as your personal situation, being denied PR now is not a big problem; you are still eligible for a Residence Card as you have now so your rights of residence and work are not affected, and if your wife stays in work you will achieve PR in September 2015.

Obie
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Post by Obie » Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:53 am

I think you may have a good chance of succeeding. what was the reason for stopping work in 2008.

It is disproportionate to refuse PR for lack of CSI without really considering other factors, or whether the person was an unreasonable burden to state fund.
Judge not, and you will not be judged.

Hubba
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Post by Hubba » Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:07 pm

Regarding the NHS usage as CSI on EEA-route applications, there is this:

http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAct ... anguage=en

No action has yet being taken, but we know for a fact that their policy regarding CSI has changed on January 2011 (http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary , Annex A).

You could argue that given that they weren't explicit prior to that, which is clearly indicated on such document (which states a start date of January 2011 for the enforcement of such requisite) allowed you to interpret that the NHS coverage would be enough, given how the health services are offered here in the UK. There was no explicit guidance prior to that for you to base your actions on.

EUsmileWEallsmile
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Re: EEA4 refuse on self sufficiency without CSI

Post by EUsmileWEallsmile » Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:26 pm

sconzy wrote:Could you please advise me if I stand a chance wining an appeal against the home office decision on refusing my application on permanent residence

my wife is an EEA national who has been excising treaty right in the UK

we arrived here in the UK on October 2006

she worked from October 2006 to december 2008.(full time work) contributed to NI and paid taxes
January 2009 to august 2010 self sufficient (hold EHIC card issued by UK )(income from my employment as support)
September 2010 to july 2011( full time work ) taxes and NI paid
july 2011 to july 2012 (self employed full time) taxes and NI paid
July 2012 to now (full time work )

I am a non-EEA national and the Home office has refused my application base on self sufficient without Comprehensive Sickness Insurance.

I want to appeal this decision and wants to know if I stand a chance.
What was the reason for stopping work? This may be important.

sconzy
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Post by sconzy » Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:36 pm

she wanted to do something different. career change, took her time to figure out what she wanted to do. i was earning about 45k a year so we were fine. never claimed any benefit from anywhere. I know I qualify for EEA2 if this appeal fails but its just rubbish for the UK to treat people like this

Obie
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Post by Obie » Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:55 pm

I believe if you put in strong appeal, and with an experience Representative who is conversant with European Union Law, there is a good prospect of a successful outcome in your circumstance. Best wishes. Let us know how it went.
Judge not, and you will not be judged.

XABI
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Re: EEA4 refuse on self sufficiency without CSI

Post by XABI » Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:31 pm

sconzy wrote:Could you please advise me if I stand a chance wining an appeal against the home office decision on refusing my application on permanent residence

my wife is an EEA national who has been excising treaty right in the UK

we arrived here in the UK on October 2006

she worked from October 2006 to december 2008.(full time work) contributed to NI and paid taxes
January 2009 to august 2010 self sufficient (hold EHIC card issued by UK )(income from my employment as support)
September 2010 to july 2011( full time work ) taxes and NI paid
july 2011 to july 2012 (self employed full time) taxes and NI paid
July 2012 to now (full time work )

I am a non-EEA national and the Home office has refused my application base on self sufficient without Comprehensive Sickness Insurance.

I want to appeal this decision and wants to know if I stand a chance.

I can see that you submit EHIC from UK. You could see in EEA4 it says if you have EHIC card that cover for the 5 year period in the section 11;

As evidence of comprehensive sickness insurance (This requirement only applies to persons exercising Treaty rights as students or self-sufficient persons):
You must provide either a private comprehensive sickness insurance policy document that covered for medical treatment in the majority of circumstances, or a valid European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) that covered the 5-year period of residence in the UK.

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... /eea41.pdf[/url]
"but I assume that it should not be the one from UK, you needed to provide from your partner's
country.

Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:04 pm

Hubba wrote:but we know for a fact that their policy regarding CSI has changed on January 2011 (http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary , Annex A).

You could argue that given that they weren't explicit prior to that, which is clearly indicated on such document (which states a start date of January 2011 for the enforcement of such requisite) allowed you to interpret that the NHS coverage would be enough, given how the health services are offered here in the UK. There was no explicit guidance prior to that for you to base your actions on.
This is not accurate. The requirement for CSI has always been in the regulations although as you said, one can argue NHS is enough.

For self sufficient, the HO requires (private) CSI since 2008 (it's part of the application form).

For students, the requirement for CSI was not enforced before 2011 so the HO is exempting students who have been issued Residence Certificate before June 2011.

mcovet
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Post by mcovet » Sun Aug 19, 2012 12:37 am

I strongly suggest u appealed! the point behidnnd the csi is to avoid people.being unreasonable burdens on society. therefore, if one never claimed anything, there is.no.burden. i would strongly insist on appealing as it is ridiculous.to.refuse on.a.technicality. good.luck.and.hope.u succeed.

XABI
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Post by XABI » Sun Aug 19, 2012 12:55 am

Jambo wrote:
Hubba wrote:but we know for a fact that their policy regarding CSI has changed on January 2011 (http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary , Annex A).

You could argue that given that they weren't explicit prior to that, which is clearly indicated on such document (which states a start date of January 2011 for the enforcement of such requisite) allowed you to interpret that the NHS coverage would be enough, given how the health services are offered here in the UK. There was no explicit guidance prior to that for you to base your actions on.
This is not accurate. The requirement for CSI has always been in the regulations although as you said, one can argue NHS is enough.

For self sufficient, the HO requires (private) CSI since 2008 (it's part of the application form).

For students, the requirement for CSI was not enforced before 2011 so the HO is exempting students who have been issued Residence Certificate before June 2011.
Jambo,

Can you please explain then why UKBA puts the explanation on their EEA4 form , EHIC that covers 5-years period. If this is not accurate then that dosent mean a misleading .

Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:10 am

XABI wrote: Jambo,

Can you please explain then why UKBA puts the explanation on their EEA4 form , EHIC that covers 5-years period. If this is not accurate then that dosent mean a misleading .
I don't understand your question.

A (non-UK) EHIC can be used as CSI. It needs to cover the time as student/self-sufficient.

sum1
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Post by sum1 » Sun Aug 19, 2012 7:13 am

The purpose of the EHIC is to cover the holder while residing in any other member states for up to 3 months. Apparently some member states' health insurer(s) offer cover for a longer time period. Incidentally, the national health insurance card may also include the EHIC functionality.

XABI
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Post by XABI » Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:47 pm

Jambo wrote:
XABI wrote: Jambo,

Can you please explain then why UKBA puts the explanation on their EEA4 form , EHIC that covers 5-years period. If this is not accurate then that dosent mean a misleading .
I don't understand your question.

A (non-UK) EHIC can be used as CSI. It needs to cover the time as student/self-sufficient.
Sorry Jumbo
I confused with the other conversation I want to say that non-UK EHIC can be used as CSI when applied to PR .

Let me ask you a question I am also applying for my PR and my wife is EU national here in UK as self-suf she has EHIC from her country which covers for 5 years.
will this be accepted as CSI

Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Sun Aug 19, 2012 7:18 pm

XABI wrote:Let me ask you a question I am also applying for my PR and my wife is EU national here in UK as self-suf she has EHIC from her country which covers for 5 years.
will this be accepted as CSI
Yes.

Hubba
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Post by Hubba » Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:35 am

Jambo wrote:
Hubba wrote:but we know for a fact that their policy regarding CSI has changed on January 2011 (http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary , Annex A).

You could argue that given that they weren't explicit prior to that, which is clearly indicated on such document (which states a start date of January 2011 for the enforcement of such requisite) allowed you to interpret that the NHS coverage would be enough, given how the health services are offered here in the UK. There was no explicit guidance prior to that for you to base your actions on.
This is not accurate. The requirement for CSI has always been in the regulations although as you said, one can argue NHS is enough.

For self sufficient, the HO requires (private) CSI since 2008 (it's part of the application form).

For students, the requirement for CSI was not enforced before 2011 so the HO is exempting students who have been issued Residence Certificate before June 2011.
The HO has always required CSI, not private CSI. It was never specified that the CSI would have to be private, prior to 2011, even for EEA1/2 applications. The first mention that the NHS wasn't a valid CSI for EEA1/2 applications came on 2011.

What I meant is that their policy has changed in a way that they explicitly ruled out the NHS as CSI, something they haven't done before. The lack of specificity on their own documentation allowed anyone who applied to EEA1/2 in these conditions to argue that the NHS was indeed valid as CSI. At the time, there was actually a document from HMRC attesting this (document which has been corrected since then).

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